Holy Spirit

HIM · Apr 7, 2021

SANTOSO said:
Yes, many of us are concerned with spiritual gifts !
Yes, many of us long for spiritual gifts !

Yes, we have heard:
All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as He wills. -1 Corinthians 12:11

Likewise, this is what apostle Paul have said:

even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you' -1 Corinthians 1:6

so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, -1 Corinthians 1:7

So, as we wait and long for the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, we should concern ourselves whether the testimony about Christ was confirmed about us.

Why we are lacking in spiritual gifts ? It isn’t because Holy Spirit is not willing to apportion to us ! Holy Spirit will apportion the spiritual gifts to those who have the testimony of Christ was confirmed about them.

So let share what please the Holy Spirit! ; what is the testimony about Christ that Holy Spirit is looking for.

Testimony = witness
Christ in you the hope of glory. Not I but Christ

Joyous Song · Apr 9, 2021

SANTOSO said:
Dear JS,
About spiritual gifts, it is not as you understand that everyone or anyone that could claim in faith would have spiritual gifts.

If that is the way! Then it depends on our faith to have spiritual gifts. But it was not so.

For this is what we have heard:
All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, WHO apportions to each one individually as He wills. -1 Corinthians 12:11

Whether we have spiritual gifts, it is not our faith that decides whether we can have this spiritual gift or that one.

The one who decides whether we have spiritual gifts is the Holy Spirit.

Yes, we can long which spiritual gift that we would like to have but we have been told that the Holy Spirit who apportions or determines for us.

What apostle Paul told us what the Holy Spirit looks for in a person whom He gives His spiritual gifts ; that is a person to be found to have the testimony about Christ confirmed among us, as apostle have said in 1 Corinthians 1:6-7

What I understand and perceived from 1 John 5: 9-12 ; that is : we have the testimony of Christ when we believe Christ; believing Christ means that we obey what Christ have said or taught ; that His teaching is in our hearts. And we have the testimony of God in us when we have the Son of God ; that means that we confess before others about Christ, who have died and rose again to give us eternal life. ( 1 John 2:23 )

With that, we have the testimony of Christ among us. That is what the Holy Spirit is looking for — the testimony of Christ among us.

When Holy Spirit gives His spiritual gifts ; I don’t know ; what spiritual gifts ; only Holy Spirit knows ; How the Holy Spirit gives His gifts — only He knows.

Our concern is only to do what we are taught in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

Any way, this spiritual gifts that Holy Spirit that He gives — this is what we have heard:

while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. -Hebrews 2:4

So the Holy Spirit distributes gifts according to His will — to relate God the Father and the Son’s witness !

If God gives us witness ! This must be really something important for us to understand and perceive ; that He manifest spiritual reality that affects our physical reality ; and He can manifest through spiritual gifts that He apportion to us by His Holy Spirit.

So not about whether we are good enough !
It is about whether we have done what we are told what is written to us.

Let us have the testimony of Christ confirmed among us; that we bring delights to the Holy Spirit.

For this is about Holy Spirit’s spiritual gifts, let
Him give because He is delighted to give ; because it brings joy to Him that He gives us.

Let us have the spiritual gift remembering that He gives because God bore witness through us.

Sontoso: Dear JS, About Spirit Gifts, it is not as you understand that everyone or anyone that could claim in faith would have a spiritual gift.

JS: Its not likely everyone would have a spiritual gift as doing so requires one’s heart to be clean. That which is Holy cannot dwell within an unclean vessel, 1Cor.11.27-32. Thus this same is true for the human heart. So faith is important, this is what your conversation on having the testimony of Christ confirmed among us was also about. But true faith that comes through trails and tribulations and learns to trust fully in HaShem, praise be He, and through this one is prepared to receive and serve.

Put another way, Christ said we need to become like Children, innocent, trusting, accepting of everything our Father calls for us. Yet the age of seven we are told (the age of understanding) almost everyone looses this innocence, trust and acceptance. This is when the ego first develops, one could also call this: the knowledge of good and evil and this grows in our hearts and minds.

Every teacher also knows that the danger of teaching children new facts is that this can easily crush the love of learning and natural creativity. The challenge then is to teach skills and knowledge without crushing these gifts but that is not easy.

The same is true for spiritual rebirth and the seven, or the perfect age of understanding that comes to us when teaching those reborn in the faith, however that same teaching can crush love. The ego: “I already know”, “I’m saved”, “I cannot sin”, I’m redeemed and perfected by the cross”, “you’re damned without Christ” and so on are evidence this exists, and those who quote them will claim firmly they have the testimony of Christ confirmed in them thus they are worthy of Spiritual gifts.

Yet they lack just what the rich man Christ met lacked, who knew the LAW and did that LAW perfectly, but mourned when Christ told him to be perfect they needed to sell everything, giving this to the poor and follow Him. That is what trust is all about. Going forward because you are called, blindly, like a little child, holding tightly to your Father’s Hand, through whatever trails and tribulations He sets before you, knowing His Will is for your own good and that He Will never give you more than you can handle.

His rod, His Law and His Staff, Christ example (even unto death) is before our eyes as He prepares a table of our sins and weaknesses that grew forth from our ego, “me myself and I”. Our sins though forgiven still block people from seeing Christ confirmed among us, this is why He does this. Not as punishment but because He loves us so much. Only after we overcome these evils set before us does our cup overflow with His grace, mercy and Christ is indeed confirmed or clearly visible in our nonjudgmental love and service (also see the Beatitudes).

I also both agree and disagree that we cannot request spiritual gifts. Years ago when I was still an innocent child I went often to the basement of our Church where the folk group played the Mass that was part of the Charismatic Renewal. There was a song they played I loved, the refrain was:

“Young men see vision, old men dream, dreams, I want to see those visions, Oh L-rd let me dream those dream.” Song of Joel, refrain.

I was very young, untaught, no one told me I could not pray for Spiritual Gifts, so I prayed to see those visions and to dream those dreams. The song seemed to say we could, so why not, and as a child, still a child, I wanted to be closer to my Heavenly Father. Sadly around this same time my family actions and those around me crushed this child like faith by their promoting a falsehood that I believed too long in that same childlike innocence.

It took me many years to find that childlike faith again and then fleeting, and I had to go through that knowledge of good and evil to get there. After seeing extreme examples of hypocrisy and outright falsehood promoted by Christians claiming Christ is confirmed in them (and many examples abounded as I grew), I had to rebuild my faith: Scriptural rock upon Scriptural rock; Law upon Law.

That said not all Christians (Jews and Muslims) showed bad examples, I can see where good holy people influenced my life opening my path back to that childlike faith to return. These were flashes of light in the darkness all around me.

I also dreamed those dream while still innocent and unaware I shouldn’t ask for them. For example, in a dream as a very small child I saw my husband coming to me as I sat on the porch of my parents’ house. He called himself my husband and I knew he was. There were be many years before I saw a younger version of that face and married him.

Yet it wasn’t dreams He granted me that I found truly precocious or rather they are far less so than the visions, not my own but those in His Word (Discernment). Through this process I learning not to judge quickly because I do not always see clearly, or perfectly. One example was Lev.20,13 often quoted as a judgment against make homosexuality:

“If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have did what is detestable.”

My son a few days ago asked me if this was indeed the correct interpretation from the Hebrew thus condemning male homosexuality. He said he suspected it spoke of a different sin because only men are mentioned. After we discussed this I decided his suspicions were valid enough to test. So I went and pulled out the Hebrew Scriptures and found an interesting thing, that text does not say “if a man lies with a man,” but “if a man (Ish) lies with a young male (Zakar)”.

You see back at the time this text was likely penned the Greek had a evil practice. All land owners and owners of businesses were called “men”, all too young to be so were “males”. Thus the tern “male” references these young men being treated like wives. Further Israel had knowledge of Greece. They invaded Israel as did Egypt during those days, so that practice was well know.

Therefore the sin of Lev.20.13 is pedophilia or power corrupts, and that sin is on both because these Greek youths were willing victims. They accepted this as a means to get ahead. If this text has a modern example it would be the sex scandal plaguing our nation. Seeking sex with youths by those with power is indeed detestable to HaShem our G-d. The sin is only on the perpetrator unless the youth agreed, then the sin is on both which makes this even more detestable.

So that text really says nothing about homosexuality, whether or not its a sin. That text in Leviticus is not applicable to arguing this point! And this is an example of the benefit of loosing my faith in modern Christian teaching, all those years ago. I regained that faith slowly but my faith in HaShem was well grounded by then, praise be He. And I gained skills that can help clear the dross from the gold, discernment as regards judgmental teachings and in other teaching and understanding as well.

So, foolish perhaps as my childlike innocent prayers I made long ago, I firmly believe, HaShem Praise be He, gave them to me. Not because I was worthy, but because this would hold me when things grew very dark, and allow me, a thinker, to help lost children find their way back to faith, when I made my own return.

spiritfilledjm · Apr 9, 2021

Joyous Song said:
Sontoso: Dear JS, About Spirit Gifts, it is not as you understand that everyone or anyone that could claim in faith would have a spiritual gift.

JS: Its not likely everyone would have a spiritual gift as doing so requires one’s heart to be clean. That which is Holy cannot dwell within an unclean vessel, 1Cor.11.27-32. Thus this same is true for the human heart. So faith is important, this is what your conversation on having the testimony of Christ confirmed among us was also about. But true faith that comes through trails and tribulations and learns to trust fully in HaShem, praise be He, and through this one is prepared to receive and serve.

Put another way, Christ said we need to become like Children, innocent, trusting, accepting of everything our Father calls for us. Yet the age of seven we are told (the age of understanding) almost everyone looses this innocence, trust and acceptance. This is when the ego first develops, one could also call this: the knowledge of good and evil and this grows in our hearts and minds.

Every teacher also knows that the danger of teaching children new facts is that this can easily crush the love of learning and natural creativity. The challenge then is to teach skills and knowledge without crushing these gifts but that is not easy.

The same is true for spiritual rebirth and the seven, or the perfect age of understanding that comes to us when teaching those reborn in the faith, however that same teaching can crush love. The ego: “I already know”, “I’m saved”, “I cannot sin”, I’m redeemed and perfected by the cross”, “you’re damned without Christ” and so on are evidence this exists, and those who quote them will claim firmly they have the testimony of Christ confirmed in them thus they are worthy of Spiritual gifts.

Yet they lack just what the rich man Christ met lacked, who knew the LAW and did that LAW perfectly, but mourned when Christ told him to be perfect they needed to sell everything, giving this to the poor and follow Him. That is what trust is all about. Going forward because you are called, blindly, like a little child, holding tightly to your Father’s Hand, through whatever trails and tribulations He sets before you, knowing His Will is for your own good and that He Will never give you more than you can handle.

His rod, His Law and His Staff, Christ example (even unto death) is before our eyes as He prepares a table of our sins and weaknesses that grew forth from our ego, “me myself and I”. Our sins though forgiven still block people from seeing Christ confirmed among us, this is why He does this. Not as punishment but because He loves us so much. Only after we overcome these evils set before us does our cup overflow with His grace, mercy and Christ is indeed confirmed or clearly visible in our nonjudgmental love and service (also see the Beatitudes).

I also both agree and disagree that we cannot request spiritual gifts. Years ago when I was still an innocent child I went often to the basement of our Church where the folk group played the Mass that was part of the Charismatic Renewal. There was a song they played I loved, the refrain was:

“Young men see vision, old men dream, dreams, I want to see those visions, Oh L-rd let me dream those dream.” Song of Joel, refrain.

I was very young, untaught, no one told me I could not pray for Spiritual Gifts, so I prayed to see those visions and to dream those dreams. The song seemed to say we could, so why not, and as a child, still a child, I wanted to be closer to my Heavenly Father. Sadly around this same time my family actions and those around me crushed this child like faith by their promoting a falsehood that I believed too long in that same childlike innocence.

It took me many years to find that childlike faith again and then fleeting, and I had to go through that knowledge of good and evil to get there. After seeing extreme examples of hypocrisy and outright falsehood promoted by Christians claiming Christ is confirmed in them (and many examples abounded as I grew), I had to rebuild my faith: Scriptural rock upon Scriptural rock; Law upon Law.

That said not all Christians (Jews and Muslims) showed bad examples, I can see where good holy people influenced my life opening my path back to that childlike faith to return. These were flashes of light in the darkness all around me.

I also dreamed those dream while still innocent and unaware I shouldn’t ask for them. For example, in a dream as a very small child I saw my husband coming to me as I sat on the porch of my parents’ house. He called himself my husband and I knew he was. There were be many years before I saw a younger version of that face and married him.

Yet it wasn’t dreams He granted me that I found truly precocious or rather they are far less so than the visions, not my own but those in His Word (Discernment). Through this process I learning not to judge quickly because I do not always see clearly, or perfectly. One example was Lev.20,13 often quoted as a judgment against make homosexuality:

“If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have did what is detestable.”

My son a few days ago asked me if this was indeed the correct interpretation from the Hebrew thus condemning male homosexuality. He said he suspected it spoke of a different sin because only men are mentioned. After we discussed this I decided his suspicions were valid enough to test. So I went and pulled out the Hebrew Scriptures and found an interesting thing, that text does not say “if a man lies with a man,” but “if a man (Ish) lies with a young male (Zakar)”.

You see back at the time this text was likely penned the Greek had a evil practice. All land owners and owners of businesses were called “men”, all too young to be so were “males”. Thus the tern “male” references these young men being treated like wives. Further Israel had knowledge of Greece. They invaded Israel as did Egypt during those days, so that practice was well know.

Therefore the sin of Lev.20.13 is pedophilia or power corrupts, and that sin is on both because these Greek youths were willing victims. They accepted this as a means to get ahead. If this text has a modern example it would be the sex scandal plaguing our nation. Seeking sex with youths by those with power is indeed detestable to HaShem our G-d. The sin is only on the perpetrator unless the youth agreed, then the sin is on both which makes this even more detestable.

So that text really says nothing about homosexuality, whether or not its a sin. That text in Leviticus is not applicable to arguing this point! And this is an example of the benefit of loosing my faith in modern Christian teaching, all those years ago. I regained that faith slowly but my faith in HaShem was well grounded by then, praise be He. And I gained skills that can help clear the dross from the gold, discernment as regards judgmental teachings and in other teaching and understanding as well.

So, foolish perhaps as my childlike innocent prayers I made long ago, I firmly believe, HaShem Praise be He, gave them to me. Not because I was worthy, but because this would hold me when things grew very dark, and allow me, a thinker, to help lost children find their way back to faith, when I made my own return.

The Greek word used in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 means Man-bedder. Not pedophile, or child bedder.

Joyous Song · Apr 9, 2021

spiritfilledjm said:
The Greek word used in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 means Man-bedder. Not pedophile, or child bedder.

JS: I was referencing the Hebrew text. As i said in my post, I not done a full study, only that that text is not about homosexuality. I

SANTOSO · Apr 10, 2021

Joyous Song said:
Sontoso: Dear JS, About Spirit Gifts, it is not as you understand that everyone or anyone that could claim in faith would have a spiritual gift.

JS: Its not likely everyone would have a spiritual gift as doing so requires one’s heart to be clean. That which is Holy cannot dwell within an unclean vessel, 1Cor.11.27-32. Thus this same is true for the human heart. So faith is important, this is what your conversation on having the testimony of Christ confirmed among us was also about. But true faith that comes through trails and tribulations and learns to trust fully in HaShem, praise be He, and through this one is prepared to receive and serve.

Put another way, Christ said we need to become like Children, innocent, trusting, accepting of everything our Father calls for us. Yet the age of seven we are told (the age of understanding) almost everyone looses this innocence, trust and acceptance. This is when the ego first develops, one could also call this: the knowledge of good and evil and this grows in our hearts and minds.

Every teacher also knows that the danger of teaching children new facts is that this can easily crush the love of learning and natural creativity. The challenge then is to teach skills and knowledge without crushing these gifts but that is not easy.

The same is true for spiritual rebirth and the seven, or the perfect age of understanding that comes to us when teaching those reborn in the faith, however that same teaching can crush love. The ego: “I already know”, “I’m saved”, “I cannot sin”, I’m redeemed and perfected by the cross”, “you’re damned without Christ” and so on are evidence this exists, and those who quote them will claim firmly they have the testimony of Christ confirmed in them thus they are worthy of Spiritual gifts.

Yet they lack just what the rich man Christ met lacked, who knew the LAW and did that LAW perfectly, but mourned when Christ told him to be perfect they needed to sell everything, giving this to the poor and follow Him. That is what trust is all about. Going forward because you are called, blindly, like a little child, holding tightly to your Father’s Hand, through whatever trails and tribulations He sets before you, knowing His Will is for your own good and that He Will never give you more than you can handle.

His rod, His Law and His Staff, Christ example (even unto death) is before our eyes as He prepares a table of our sins and weaknesses that grew forth from our ego, “me myself and I”. Our sins though forgiven still block people from seeing Christ confirmed among us, this is why He does this. Not as punishment but because He loves us so much. Only after we overcome these evils set before us does our cup overflow with His grace, mercy and Christ is indeed confirmed or clearly visible in our nonjudgmental love and service (also see the Beatitudes).

I also both agree and disagree that we cannot request spiritual gifts. Years ago when I was still an innocent child I went often to the basement of our Church where the folk group played the Mass that was part of the Charismatic Renewal. There was a song they played I loved, the refrain was:

“Young men see vision, old men dream, dreams, I want to see those visions, Oh L-rd let me dream those dream.” Song of Joel, refrain.

I was very young, untaught, no one told me I could not pray for Spiritual Gifts, so I prayed to see those visions and to dream those dreams. The song seemed to say we could, so why not, and as a child, still a child, I wanted to be closer to my Heavenly Father. Sadly around this same time my family actions and those around me crushed this child like faith by their promoting a falsehood that I believed too long in that same childlike innocence.

It took me many years to find that childlike faith again and then fleeting, and I had to go through that knowledge of good and evil to get there. After seeing extreme examples of hypocrisy and outright falsehood promoted by Christians claiming Christ is confirmed in them (and many examples abounded as I grew), I had to rebuild my faith: Scriptural rock upon Scriptural rock; Law upon Law.

That said not all Christians (Jews and Muslims) showed bad examples, I can see where good holy people influenced my life opening my path back to that childlike faith to return. These were flashes of light in the darkness all around me.

I also dreamed those dream while still innocent and unaware I shouldn’t ask for them. For example, in a dream as a very small child I saw my husband coming to me as I sat on the porch of my parents’ house. He called himself my husband and I knew he was. There were be many years before I saw a younger version of that face and married him.

Yet it wasn’t dreams He granted me that I found truly precocious or rather they are far less so than the visions, not my own but those in His Word (Discernment). Through this process I learning not to judge quickly because I do not always see clearly, or perfectly. One example was Lev.20,13 often quoted as a judgment against make homosexuality:

“If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have did what is detestable.”

My son a few days ago asked me if this was indeed the correct interpretation from the Hebrew thus condemning male homosexuality. He said he suspected it spoke of a different sin because only men are mentioned. After we discussed this I decided his suspicions were valid enough to test. So I went and pulled out the Hebrew Scriptures and found an interesting thing, that text does not say “if a man lies with a man,” but “if a man (Ish) lies with a young male (Zakar)”.

You see back at the time this text was likely penned the Greek had a evil practice. All land owners and owners of businesses were called “men”, all too young to be so were “males”. Thus the tern “male” references these young men being treated like wives. Further Israel had knowledge of Greece. They invaded Israel as did Egypt during those days, so that practice was well know.

Therefore the sin of Lev.20.13 is pedophilia or power corrupts, and that sin is on both because these Greek youths were willing victims. They accepted this as a means to get ahead. If this text has a modern example it would be the sex scandal plaguing our nation. Seeking sex with youths by those with power is indeed detestable to HaShem our G-d. The sin is only on the perpetrator unless the youth agreed, then the sin is on both which makes this even more detestable.

So that text really says nothing about homosexuality, whether or not its a sin. That text in Leviticus is not applicable to arguing this point! And this is an example of the benefit of loosing my faith in modern Christian teaching, all those years ago. I regained that faith slowly but my faith in HaShem was well grounded by then, praise be He. And I gained skills that can help clear the dross from the gold, discernment as regards judgmental teachings and in other teaching and understanding as well.

So, foolish perhaps as my childlike innocent prayers I made long ago, I firmly believe, HaShem Praise be He, gave them to me. Not because I was worthy, but because this would hold me when things grew very dark, and allow me, a thinker, to help lost children find their way back to faith, when I made my own return.

Dear JS,
I agree with your consideration whether a person have been regarded as a clean vessel worthy to receive the spiritual gifts. I consider those who have the testimony of Christ confirmed among us ; I would consider them to be clean. Why? In this manner, I regard them whether they are clean; that they believe in Christ not only lip service but believe in Christ wholeheartedly. And if they say that they believe in Christ, we need to discern whether or not they have obeyed what the Lord have said. If they have obeyed what they are taught ! We need to consider whether they are in Christ or in union with Christ. Wouldn’t we consider them clean if they have done that ?

Even if that person already have spiritual gifts ! I wouldn’t expect less ! I would continue to discern whether that person is a living testimony about Christ.

Also, I agree with you — those who have the testimony of Christ confirmed among us — that person would be living in faith.

About child like faith, I believe would please the Holy Spirit. Likewise, as children of our Heavenly Father, I agree that we would be subject to discipline. Yes, we can consider trial and tribulation as discipline that our Heavenly Father teach us to endure.

Dear JS, about praying for spiritual gifts, I wouldn’t consider it wrong. I believe we can express our longing for spiritual gifts to Holy Spirit.

If we have prayed wrongly! I consider this psalm :

Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults. -Psalms 19:12
Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me! Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression. -Psalms 19:13

So I believe that we can come to the Lord, even when we have prayed wrongly. We can seek the Lord’s mercy to cleanse us from our hidden faults. Likewise, we can seek the Lord’s strength to keep us from presumptuous sins.

I agree with you that you should rely on dreams but seek the confirmation of dream via God’s words.

About homosexuality, many these days have been wrongly influenced; is there no way of repentance for these sinners? I still believe that there is grace of repentance for them.

If you are asking wether they can be clean and receive spiritual gifts ! If those who are homosexual repent in truth and contrition, come back to the Lord. I believe the Lord will abundantly pardon them. I believe just like everyone else, the homosexual, need to have testimony about Christ confirmed among us.

But who knows the hearts better ? God is greater than our hearts. He knows everything.

I believe Holy Spirit will apportion these spiritual gifts in accords with His will.

Joyous Song · Apr 12, 2021

SANTOSO said:
Dear JS,
I agree with your consideration whether a person have been regarded as a clean vessel worthy to receive the spiritual gifts. I consider those who have the testimony of Christ confirmed among us ; I would consider them to be clean. Why? In this manner, I regard them whether they are clean; that they believe in Christ not only lip service but believe in Christ wholeheartedly. And if they say that they believe in Christ, we need to discern whether or not they have obeyed what the Lord have said. If they have obeyed what they are taught ! We need to consider whether they are in Christ or in union with Christ. Wouldn’t we consider them clean if they have done that ?

Even if that person already have spiritual gifts ! I wouldn’t expect less ! I would continue to discern whether that person is a living testimony about Christ.

Also, I agree with you — those who have the testimony of Christ confirmed among us — that person would be living in faith.

About child like faith, I believe would please the Holy Spirit. Likewise, as children of our Heavenly Father, I agree that we would be subject to discipline. Yes, we can consider trial and tribulation as discipline that our Heavenly Father teach us to endure.

Dear JS, about praying for spiritual gifts, I wouldn’t consider it wrong. I believe we can express our longing for spiritual gifts to Holy Spirit.

If we have prayed wrongly! I consider this psalm :

Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults. -Psalms 19:12
Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me! Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression. -Psalms 19:13

So I believe that we can come to the Lord, even when we have prayed wrongly. We can seek the Lord’s mercy to cleanse us from our hidden faults. Likewise, we can seek the Lord’s strength to keep us from presumptuous sins.

I agree with you that you should rely on dreams but seek the confirmation of dream via God’s words.

About homosexuality, many these days have been wrongly influenced; is there no way of repentance for these sinners? I still believe that there is grace of repentance for them.

If you are asking wether they can be clean and receive spiritual gifts ! If those who are homosexual repent in truth and contrition, come back to the Lord. I believe the Lord will abundantly pardon them. I believe just like everyone else, the homosexual, need to have testimony about Christ confirmed among us.

But who knows the hearts better ? God is greater than our hearts. He knows everything.

I believe Holy Spirit will apportion these spiritual gifts in accords with His will.

Santoso: Dear JS, about praying for spiritual gifts, I wouldn’t consider it wrong. I believe we can express our longing for spiritual gifts to Holy Spirit.

If we have prayed wrongly! I consider this psalm :

Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults. -Psalms 19:12
Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me! Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression. -Psalms 19:13

So I believe that we can come to the Lord, even when we have prayed wrongly. We can seek the Lord’s mercy to cleanse us from our hidden faults. Likewise, we can seek the Lord’s strength to keep us from presumptuous sins.

I agree with you that you should rely on dreams but seek the confirmation of dream via God’s words.

About homosexuality, many these days have been wrongly influenced; is there no way of repentance for these sinners? I still believe that there is grace of repentance for them.

If you are asking whether they can be clean and receive spiritual gifts ! If those who are homosexual repent in truth and contrition, come back to the Lord. I believe the Lord will abundantly pardon them. I believe just like everyone else, the homosexual, need to have testimony about Christ confirmed among us.

JS: Still I struggling to discover how serious a sin, for example pride or an overblown ego can block us from receiving a Spiritual Gift, but are all homosexuals arrogant or egotistical and is this why you believe they cannot hear G-d? Or is their sin something else all together that might allow Him in?

My experience has been this “they must repent before… statements does more harm to spreading the Gospel to homosexuals that any other judgment. Here in America most Christians are self absorbed sinners seeking money and entertainment and other distractions like drugs and alcohol. And yet we do not say to them as they come our congregations, “repent in truth and contrition, come back to the Lord”? Our Churches would be empty!

It is not for us to judge! Its for us to point the way to the Great Judge and let HIM convict. Who knows for some of these people he could even say to them as He said to Paul about one of his difficult sins, “My grace is sufficient”.

Santoso: But who knows the hearts better ? God is greater than our hearts. He knows everything. I believe Holy Spirit will apportion these spiritual gifts in accords with His will.

JS: Exactly, He Knows the heart, even the hearts of two men or two woman in love who see no wrong in that love. Besides in most cases I seen they are reacting to others sin that caused them to turn away for the opposite sex. Often we need to help them heal their past but most of the time its the Messiah Who can heal them far better than we can. So I leave it mostly in His hands and spread the Good News clear of judgments.

SANTOSO · Apr 12, 2021

Joyous Song said:
Santoso: Dear JS, about praying for spiritual gifts, I wouldn’t consider it wrong. I believe we can express our longing for spiritual gifts to Holy Spirit.

If we have prayed wrongly! I consider this psalm :

Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults. -Psalms 19:12
Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me! Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression. -Psalms 19:13

So I believe that we can come to the Lord, even when we have prayed wrongly. We can seek the Lord’s mercy to cleanse us from our hidden faults. Likewise, we can seek the Lord’s strength to keep us from presumptuous sins.

I agree with you that you should rely on dreams but seek the confirmation of dream via God’s words.

About homosexuality, many these days have been wrongly influenced; is there no way of repentance for these sinners? I still believe that there is grace of repentance for them.

If you are asking whether they can be clean and receive spiritual gifts ! If those who are homosexual repent in truth and contrition, come back to the Lord. I believe the Lord will abundantly pardon them. I believe just like everyone else, the homosexual, need to have testimony about Christ confirmed among us.

JS: Still I struggling to discover how serious a sin, for example pride or an overblown ego can block us from receiving a Spiritual Gift, but are all homosexuals arrogant or egotistical and is this why you believe they cannot hear G-d? Or is their sin something else all together that might allow Him in?

My experience has been this “they must repent before… statements does more harm to spreading the Gospel to homosexuals that any other judgment. Here in America most Christians are self absorbed sinners seeking money and entertainment and other distractions like drugs and alcohol. And yet we do not say to them as they come our congregations, “repent in truth and contrition, come back to the Lord”? Our Churches would be empty!

It is not for us to judge! Its for us to point the way to the Great Judge and let HIM convict. Who knows for some of these people he could even say to them as He said to Paul about one of his difficult sins, “My grace is sufficient”.

Santoso: But who knows the hearts better ? God is greater than our hearts. He knows everything. I believe Holy Spirit will apportion these spiritual gifts in accords with His will.

JS: Exactly, He Knows the heart, even the hearts of two men or two woman in love who see no wrong in that love. Besides in most cases I seen they are reacting to others sin that caused them to turn away for the opposite sex. Often we need to help them heal their past but most of the time its the Messiah Who can heal them far better than we can. So I leave it mostly in His hands and spread the Good News clear of judgments.

Dear JS,
I heard you said : “Still I struggling to discover how serious a sin.” Let me discuss this before I discuss what you also have said . May Holy Spirit guide me on what to say to you.

I believe God honors our prayers if we ask Him what sin is so that we hate sin. This is what I have prayed when I learned from a holy woman of God whom I respect.

How serious sin is ?!
This is what we have heard:

For while we were living in the flesh,
our sinful passions, AROUSED by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. -Romans 7:5

SIN that made our members to bear fruit for death; that is dangerous!

But why AROUSED by the law ?
This is what we have heard:

What then shall we say?
That the law is sin? By no means!
Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." -Romans 7:7
But sin, SEIZING AN OPPORTUNITY through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. -Romans 7:8

Isn’t SIN like A PERSON WITHOUT BODY?
For we heard sinful passions are AROUSED ! Sin SEIZING AN OPPORTUNITY ! So we can consider that SIN is A PERSON WITHOUT BODY and this person is an evil person without body.

For this is what we have heard:
in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience' -Ephesians 2:2
among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. -Ephesians 2:3

So those who are living in the passions of the flesh, are under sin, who is AN EVIL SPIRIT; that the Bible named as THE PRINCE OF THE POWER OF THE AIR, that is the Devil.

For the devil and its cohorts are now working in the sons of disobedience !; by making them aroused with sinful passions and produced in them all kinds of covetousness.

For these sons of disobedience do not understand their own actions. For they do not do what they want, but they do the very thing they hate. So now it is no longer they who do it, but SIN that dwells within them.

For this is what we have heard:
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. -Romans 7:18
For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. -Romans 7:19
Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. -Romans 7:20

That is how dangerous sin is, NOT ABLE TO
DO THE GOOD THAT YOU WANT ! Why ?
because the devil with its demons and evil spirits not only have enticed, harassed, tormented the sons of disobedience but also have COMPELLED, ENSLAVED, DEFILED, DECEIVED and make the sons of disobedience weak, tired and sick.

That is why we have heard the admonition:
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. -1 Peter 5:8

Don’t we stay sober and watchful during war times ? This is what we have heard:

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. -Romans 7:21

For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, -Romans 7:22

but I see in my members another law waging war against THE LAW OF MY MIND and making me captive to THE LAW OF SIN that dwells in my members. -Romans 7:23

When we have the law of God on our mind
or
when we renew our minds with what God has taught us, — we are able to see or PERCEIVE that in the members/parts of our body — there is ANOTHER LAW waging war against the law of our mind ( or the law of God on our mind ) — that is THE LAW OF SIN !

That is why apostle Peter has said this :

Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul (mind) . -1 Peter 2:11

So actually there is a SPIRITUAL WARFARE that happens in our minds when struggling against SIN ! For SIN or THE LAW OF SIN dwells in the members of the body of the sons of disobedience.

That is why we are told THIS:
For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. -2 Corinthians 10:3
For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. -2 Corinthians 10:4
We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, -2 Corinthians 10:5

So in the sons of disobedience, there are STRONGHOLDS, that is, ARGUMENTS AND LOFTY OPINIONS that raise against the knowledge of God.

Unless the sons of disobedience repent from sin, that is, abandon their wicked ways and forsake their unrighteous thoughts, — their thoughts are still not subject to obedience to Christ.

Since SIN has become a master over the sons of the disobedience and that they are still under the power of the LAW OF SIN. Then they are not under grace and the Lord cannot rescue them out of sin and death since they resist the grace of repentance.

That is how serious sin is !

SANTOSO · Apr 12, 2021

Joyous Song said:
Santoso: Dear JS, about praying for spiritual gifts, I wouldn’t consider it wrong. I believe we can express our longing for spiritual gifts to Holy Spirit.

If we have prayed wrongly! I consider this psalm :

Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults. -Psalms 19:12
Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me! Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression. -Psalms 19:13

So I believe that we can come to the Lord, even when we have prayed wrongly. We can seek the Lord’s mercy to cleanse us from our hidden faults. Likewise, we can seek the Lord’s strength to keep us from presumptuous sins.

I agree with you that you should rely on dreams but seek the confirmation of dream via God’s words.

About homosexuality, many these days have been wrongly influenced; is there no way of repentance for these sinners? I still believe that there is grace of repentance for them.

If you are asking whether they can be clean and receive spiritual gifts ! If those who are homosexual repent in truth and contrition, come back to the Lord. I believe the Lord will abundantly pardon them. I believe just like everyone else, the homosexual, need to have testimony about Christ confirmed among us.

JS: Still I struggling to discover how serious a sin, for example pride or an overblown ego can block us from receiving a Spiritual Gift, but are all homosexuals arrogant or egotistical and is this why you believe they cannot hear G-d? Or is their sin something else all together that might allow Him in?

My experience has been this “they must repent before… statements does more harm to spreading the Gospel to homosexuals that any other judgment. Here in America most Christians are self absorbed sinners seeking money and entertainment and other distractions like drugs and alcohol. And yet we do not say to them as they come our congregations, “repent in truth and contrition, come back to the Lord”? Our Churches would be empty!

It is not for us to judge! Its for us to point the way to the Great Judge and let HIM convict. Who knows for some of these people he could even say to them as He said to Paul about one of his difficult sins, “My grace is sufficient”.

Santoso: But who knows the hearts better ? God is greater than our hearts. He knows everything. I believe Holy Spirit will apportion these spiritual gifts in accords with His will.

JS: Exactly, He Knows the heart, even the hearts of two men or two woman in love who see no wrong in that love. Besides in most cases I seen they are reacting to others sin that caused them to turn away for the opposite sex. Often we need to help them heal their past but most of the time its the Messiah Who can heal them far better than we can. So I leave it mostly in His hands and spread the Good News clear of judgments.

Dear JS,
I understand your concern to bring those who have sinned to repentance, including the homosexual. Let me share with you what Holy Spirit have shared with me, regarding the parable of the dragnet that our Lord Jesus Christ have said :

The parable of the Dragnet seems quite obvious as if the Lord explains the parable together with the meaning.

Since it is still parable, we need to seek to hear and understand and see and perceive.

This is what we have heard:

And he said to them, "Pay attention to what you hear: with the measure you use, it will be measured to you, and still more will be added to you. -Mark 4:24

So, what we can understand about this parable and more.

Since the Lord says,” "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. “

We can understand that this parable is related with others that He has spoken.

We can consider the one who has thrown the net into the sea was Son of Man.

What we can understand about the sea ? This is what we have heard:

You make mankind like the fish of the sea, like crawling things that have no ruler. -Habakkuk 1:14

So, we can perceive that the net that was thrown into the sea was the net was thrown into mankind whom the Lord make like the fish of the sea.

Also, we heard in the parable :

When it was full,.... So it will be at the end of the age.

So this is what we have heard:
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of woman, born under the law,

to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God. -Galatians 4:4-7

From here, we can understand those who were born, were under the law.

This is what we have heard what the law says to those who are under the law :

Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. -Romans 3:19

Thus, we can determine that the net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind was the law.

Did the good fish and bad fish born under the law ? Yes

This is what we have heard:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. -John 3:6

Does this mean the good fish and bad fish born under different law ?
Yes

This is what we have heard:
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. -Romans 3:27

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. -Romans 3:28

Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, -Romans 3:29
since God is one'who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. -Romans 3:30
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. -Romans 3:31

Here we can understand that the good fish are under the law of faith, while the bad fish are under the law of works.

Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. -Galatians 3:21

But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. -Galatians 3:22

As the net imprison the fish, so the those under law of works or the law of works of sin or law of sin were imprisoned as slaves of sin but those under law of faith were imprisoned as slaves of righteousness by faith in Christ Jesus.

That is why we heard this :
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. -Romans 8:1

For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. -Romans 8:2

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh ( that is law of sin and death ), could not do. By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, -Romans 8:3

in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walknot according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. -Romans 8:4

Here, we can understand that the good fish or the righteous saints who are not condemned in union with Christ Jesus by faith.

But the bad fish or the evildoers are condemned by being thrown into the fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For they did not believe
the promise given by faith in Christ Jesus.

For the righteous requirement of the law of Spirit of life are fulfilled in those who walk according to the Holy Spirit.

In other words, the good fish swim according to the Spirit while the bad fish swim according to the flesh.

Let us heed this admonition:
For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, -Hebrews 2:2

how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, -Hebrews 2:3

while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to His will. -Hebrews 2:4

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a law that was given to mankind and gathered people of every kind.

Let the Word of Messiah in all its richness dwell in us.

Let overflowing thanksgiving be given through our Lord Jesus Christ to God,

Glorifying His wonderful name.

SANTOSO · Apr 13, 2021

Joyous Song said:
Santoso: Dear JS, about praying for spiritual gifts, I wouldn’t consider it wrong. I believe we can express our longing for spiritual gifts to Holy Spirit.

If we have prayed wrongly! I consider this psalm :

Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults. -Psalms 19:12
Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me! Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression. -Psalms 19:13

So I believe that we can come to the Lord, even when we have prayed wrongly. We can seek the Lord’s mercy to cleanse us from our hidden faults. Likewise, we can seek the Lord’s strength to keep us from presumptuous sins.

I agree with you that you should rely on dreams but seek the confirmation of dream via God’s words.

About homosexuality, many these days have been wrongly influenced; is there no way of repentance for these sinners? I still believe that there is grace of repentance for them.

If you are asking whether they can be clean and receive spiritual gifts ! If those who are homosexual repent in truth and contrition, come back to the Lord. I believe the Lord will abundantly pardon them. I believe just like everyone else, the homosexual, need to have testimony about Christ confirmed among us.

JS: Still I struggling to discover how serious a sin, for example pride or an overblown ego can block us from receiving a Spiritual Gift, but are all homosexuals arrogant or egotistical and is this why you believe they cannot hear G-d? Or is their sin something else all together that might allow Him in?

My experience has been this “they must repent before… statements does more harm to spreading the Gospel to homosexuals that any other judgment. Here in America most Christians are self absorbed sinners seeking money and entertainment and other distractions like drugs and alcohol. And yet we do not say to them as they come our congregations, “repent in truth and contrition, come back to the Lord”? Our Churches would be empty!

It is not for us to judge! Its for us to point the way to the Great Judge and let HIM convict. Who knows for some of these people he could even say to them as He said to Paul about one of his difficult sins, “My grace is sufficient”.

Santoso: But who knows the hearts better ? God is greater than our hearts. He knows everything. I believe Holy Spirit will apportion these spiritual gifts in accords with His will.

JS: Exactly, He Knows the heart, even the hearts of two men or two woman in love who see no wrong in that love. Besides in most cases I seen they are reacting to others sin that caused them to turn away for the opposite sex. Often we need to help them heal their past but most of the time its the Messiah Who can heal them far better than we can. So I leave it mostly in His hands and spread the Good News clear of judgments.

Dear JS,
after a lengthy discourse about how serious sin, that you can understand that pride and overblown ego is STRONGHOLD or that there is an evil spirit of pride.Yes I agree with you that it can block anyone from receiving spiritual gifts. For we have heard that God resists the proud.

You were asking: are all homosexuals arrogant or egotistical and is this why you believe they cannot hear G-d? Or is their sin something else all together that might allow Him in?

as I have explained earlier on my past reply, not only the homosexual but also those who are sons of disobedience— they have arguments and lofty opinions that are against the true knowledge of God.

About hearing God ! This is what we have heard:
Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or His ear dull, that it cannot hear; -Isaiah 59:1
but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that He does not hear. -Isaiah 59:2

So iniquities can make us separated from God, not only the homosexual. Likewise, sins
including sins of homosexuality make the Lord hide His face so that God doesn’t hear.

How the homosexual or those have sinned can walk in new life ? This is what we have heard:

We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. -Romans 6:6
For one who has died has been set free from sin. -Romans 6:7

So who have died and set fee from sin ?! This is what we have heard:

We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. -Romans 6:4

That is why Jesus Christ call us into baptism of repentance and calls us to born of Spirit. When we were baptized into Christ, we were baptized into death — we who has died through Christ, we were set free from the law of sin and death. When we are born of the Spirit, we now live under the law of Spirit of life, that is under grace. So we who are forgiven are made alive with Christ Jesus. Therefore, we are called to walk in the newness of life with our Lord ; Not independent of our Lord but in union with our Lord.

I understand the sufferings that face America. Also, this is what we have heard:

Resist him ( the devil ), firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world. -1 Peter 5:9

So dear JS, I don’t think that only American Christians face these sufferings but it also happens throughout the world. Yes, they suffered for doing what is wrong but if they offer themselves to God’s truth; they will be set free the bondage of sin and the power of the enemies.

As your last concern — can God heal the homosexual? Aren’t the homosexual those who are low and despised ? If they respond to God’s grace of repentance, they will receive mercy. This is what we have heard:

God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, -1 Corinthians 1:28
so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. -1 Corinthians 1:29

So those who want to share the good news to the homosexual, why leave it to God ? We can ask for the Lord’s wisdom and understanding so that we can be a true witness that share what we have understood and perceived from the Lord — then we can be the children of light.

For we have heard:
And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.' -Matthew 25:40

Aren’t many of our brothers or sisters trapped in homosexuality ? If we have treated them with loving kindness in accord with God’s ways, they who repent — I believe they will acknowledge that we have loved the Lord.

Joyous Song · Apr 14, 2021

SANTOSO said:
Dear JS,
after a lengthy discourse about how serious sin, that you can understand that pride and overblown ego is STRONGHOLD or that there is an evil spirit of pride.Yes I agree with you that it can block anyone from receiving spiritual gifts. For we have heard that God resists the proud.

You were asking: are all homosexuals arrogant or egotistical and is this why you believe they cannot hear G-d? Or is their sin something else all together that might allow Him in?

as I have explained earlier on my past reply, not only the homosexual but also those who are sons of disobedience— they have arguments and lofty opinions that are against the true knowledge of God.

About hearing God ! This is what we have heard:
Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or His ear dull, that it cannot hear; -Isaiah 59:1
but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that He does not hear. -Isaiah 59:2

So iniquities can make us separated from God, not only the homosexual. Likewise, sins
including sins of homosexuality make the Lord hide His face so that God doesn’t hear.

How the homosexual or those have sinned can walk in new life ? This is what we have heard:

We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. -Romans 6:6
For one who has died has been set free from sin. -Romans 6:7

So who have died and set fee from sin ?! This is what we have heard:

We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. -Romans 6:4

That is why Jesus Christ call us into baptism of repentance and calls us to born of Spirit. When we were baptized into Christ, we were baptized into death — we who has died through Christ, we were set free from the law of sin and death. When we are born of the Spirit, we now live under the law of Spirit of life, that is under grace. So we who are forgiven are made alive with Christ Jesus. Therefore, we are called to walk in the newness of life with our Lord ; Not independent of our Lord but in union with our Lord.

I understand the sufferings that face America. Also, this is what we have heard:

Resist him ( the devil ), firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world. -1 Peter 5:9

So dear JS, I don’t think that only American Christians face these sufferings but it also happens throughout the world. Yes, they suffered for doing what is wrong but if they offer themselves to God’s truth; they will be set free the bondage of sin and the power of the enemies.

As your last concern — can God heal the homosexual? Aren’t the homosexual those who are low and despised ? If they respond to God’s grace of repentance, they will receive mercy. This is what we have heard:

God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, -1 Corinthians 1:28
so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. -1 Corinthians 1:29

So those who want to share the good news to the homosexual, why leave it to God ? We can ask for the Lord’s wisdom and understanding so that we can be a true witness that share what we have understood and perceived from the Lord — then we can be the children of light.

For we have heard:
And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.' -Matthew 25:40

Aren’t many of our brothers or sisters trapped in homosexuality ? If we have treated them with loving kindness in accord with God’s ways, they who repent — I believe they will acknowledge that we have loved the Lord.

JS: Santoso, I agree with everything you write in sin. Indeed this isn’t the area where we hold a different view. Its not that I believe homosexuality is not a sin of the flesh, it is that I suspect its minor as far as sins go (venal, forgivable not moral, unforgiving), and can be mitigated through the Spirit. In other words, its also not likely to be a sin blocking a person from grace. (Of course Paul does say men damaging their partners bodies and their own is evil so this maybe mortal if men commit this act)

I say this because I only found one reference and that in the one New Testament, in one book, by one writer and this is important. Because judging others puts a stumbling block before the Gospel! Indeed all Paul’s words go back to his sin as an example for us the Redeemed! Its our sins, not our neighbors or even our enemies, we need to worry about, its our own.

I also have been pointed many times to the Hebrew Scriptures suppository stating Homosexuality is a great sin (Sodom and Gomorrah, the sin was: what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is yours) and that passage I gave from Lev. Where man lies with a man is really man lying with a youth or pedophilia, only to prove those texts non-applicable.

Indeed for a sin mentioned only once in the New Testament, and hard to find in the Hebrew Scriptures, it garners a lot of judgment. Homosexuals are not allowed in our congregations or if allowed are relegated to not full member status. However the sin of judgment of brethren or even sinners, is found all over the Gospel and most letters.

Indeed Paul covers this issue using an entire chapter and into the next, Rom,1-2.11, to not judge sinners because we are ourselves sinners. He says this even mentioning faulty sexual passion outright (whether he means pedophilia, homosexuality or both) as an example of those we should not judge!

So I not saying its not a sin, its just not my story and not my business to judge them nor should the anyone else whois in denial assuming they are above sinning! Very few Christians suffer with homosexual tenancies, yet here and throughout my life I found judgment of innocents, of non-believers, and outright idolatry; worships things: tanabulm (Christmas Tree), bunnies, and the fat man in red, our cars, teams, jobs, and ourselves (Trump is just one of many such examples) . These sins where we put mammon or things before G-d, caused far more evil than two homosexuals living together.

And another point, you entire argument of sin would fall on deaf ears to many homosexuals because they only see that they love each other and do not see how love could be so very wrong. They also feel this love has made them better. Indeed many read our Scriptures just as we do and echo my arguments (that is how I know of some of them). They therefore see Christians judging them as hypocrites, and rightly so.

After all, it wasn’t that long ago the Christian faith was reeling in sex scandals and cover-ups. The Roman Church was at the center but was also not alone, just the biggest to fall. And it doesn’t matter if your faith tradition didn’t cover anything up, ours tradition is clean, but to homosexuals, they see this as a sin of the Body, or all of Christianity. Further that sin that was covered up and ignored for so long happens to be the sexual sin between and man and a youth HaShem said was detestable to Him.

Therefore, we need to clean our own house before we start pointing fingers, because when we point our fingers, three point back to us, Matt.7.4-5.

SANTOSO · Apr 15, 2021

Joyous Song said:
JS: Santoso, I agree with everything you write in sin. Indeed this isn’t the area where we hold a different view. Its not that I believe homosexuality is not a sin of the flesh, it is that I suspect its minor as far as sins go (venal, forgivable not moral, unforgiving), and can be mitigated through the Spirit. In other words, its also not likely to be a sin blocking a person from grace. (Of course Paul does say men damaging their partners bodies and their own is evil so this maybe mortal if men commit this act)

I say this because I only found one reference and that in the one New Testament, in one book, by one writer and this is important. Because judging others puts a stumbling block before the Gospel! Indeed all Paul’s words go back to his sin as an example for us the Redeemed! Its our sins, not our neighbors or even our enemies, we need to worry about, its our own.

I also have been pointed many times to the Hebrew Scriptures suppository stating Homosexuality is a great sin (Sodom and Gomorrah, the sin was: what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is yours) and that passage I gave from Lev. Where man lies with a man is really man lying with a youth or pedophilia, only to prove those texts non-applicable.

Indeed for a sin mentioned only once in the New Testament, and hard to find in the Hebrew Scriptures, it garners a lot of judgment. Homosexuals are not allowed in our congregations or if allowed are relegated to not full member status. However the sin of judgment of brethren or even sinners, is found all over the Gospel and most letters.

Indeed Paul covers this issue using an entire chapter and into the next, Rom,1-2.11, to not judge sinners because we are ourselves sinners. He says this even mentioning faulty sexual passion outright (whether he means pedophilia, homosexuality or both) as an example of those we should not judge!

So I not saying its not a sin, its just not my story and not my business to judge them nor should the anyone else whois in denial assuming they are above sinning! Very few Christians suffer with homosexual tenancies, yet here and throughout my life I found judgment of innocents, of non-believers, and outright idolatry; worships things: tanabulm (Christmas Tree), bunnies, and the fat man in red, our cars, teams, jobs, and ourselves (Trump is just one of many such examples) . These sins where we put mammon or things before G-d, caused far more evil than two homosexuals living together.

And another point, you entire argument of sin would fall on deaf ears to many homosexuals because they only see that they love each other and do not see how love could be so very wrong. They also feel this love has made them better. Indeed many read our Scriptures just as we do and echo my arguments (that is how I know of some of them). They therefore see Christians judging them as hypocrites, and rightly so.

After all, it wasn’t that long ago the Christian faith was reeling in sex scandals and cover-ups. The Roman Church was at the center but was also not alone, just the biggest to fall. And it doesn’t matter if your faith tradition didn’t cover anything up, ours tradition is clean, but to homosexuals, they see this as a sin of the Body, or all of Christianity. Further that sin that was covered up and ignored for so long happens to be the sexual sin between and man and a youth HaShem said was detestable to Him.

Therefore, we need to clean our own house before we start pointing fingers, because when we point our fingers, three point back to us, Matt.7.4-5.

Dear JS,
I understand your points.

I don’t mind that you have a different view from me. I just share my good intentions to you, that I speak the truth in love to you, or even those who are homosexual. May Holy Spirit lead us into all truth, and we will know the truth and the truth will set us free.

Let me talk about the points that you shared me with me. I get it that you understand homosexuality is sin but you are concerned with those who judge people who are homosexual as if they haven’t themselves aware of their sins that you have mentioned. Are they not sinners or even worse than the homosexual?

Have you heard this before :
(21) Evil will kill the wicked,
and those who hate the righteous will be condemned..-Psalm 34:21 CJB

Yes, there may be many who professed to believe in Christ but have not obeyed what the Lord has taught in union with Him; Doesn’t God’s wrath remain on them ? Are they considered to practice lawlessness ?
Are they considered evildoers ? Yes, they are. Unless they repent in true contrition and walk by the Spirit, they can’t put to death the practice of the flesh.

What is the use of comparing who are evil and wicked ? Are the homosexual considered wicked or evil ? So who will kill who ? Then truly who are saved ! Aren’t those whom the Lord counted righteous who will be saved ? Yes. Even we can see the grace that God give the righteous that He will not allow those hate the righteous uncondemned. Yes, God promise that those who hate the righteous will be condemned!

So how do those who are presently evil or wicked escape from this condemnation?

If they have been baptized with water, they should not continue in sin. If they have sinned, they should repent wholeheartedly.
Then they can walk in the newness of life, that is, walking in the way of the Spirit.

This is what we have heard:
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also FORGIVE you, -Matthew 6:14

Those who have committed the acts of same sex union may offend us. Despite that, we are told to release forgiveness to them so that we have compassion on those who have suffered wrong to come back to the Lord’s grace of repentance.

Likewise, those who have believed Christ and have not walked in obedience to what Christ has taught may also bring us shame and dishonor to us who hold the faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in high regard; yes, they do offend us, too ; despite that, we are told to release forgiveness to them so that they understand the compassion of the Lord who still calls them out of darkness that they come to light and repent of their wicked ways and unrighteous thoughts and be found in the grace of repentance of our Lord.

Daily we need to release forgiveness to them who accuse us, hurt us, disappoint us, upset us, mistreat us, resent us, reject us, and abandon us, wrong us, offend us so that we find ourselves in the mercy of Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

When many have HURT us that deep ? Is it easy to release forgiveness? May be we even consider those HURT us as our natural enemies? But this is what we have heard:

But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, -Matthew 5:44

How is it possible that we can love our enemies and obey what our Lord have told us to do ?

Now many homosexuals draw upon laws against those who are Christians who don’t accepts their norms and values ? Don’t they hate ?

Yes, there are also many who believe in Christ but walked in lawlessness— that threw many verbal violence at the homosexual. Do they also hate ?

Can these two enemies be reconciled ?
Aren’t those whom the Lord counted righteous are also hated and condemned not because of their fault ? Aren’t those homosexual who have repent caught in this cross fire of hate ? Aren’t those lawless Christians who repent of verbal violence are also caught in this condemnation?

When both sides are in so much hate, full of arguments and lofty opinions ! Are they able to love and come to obedience to Christ?
Why is it difficult to love others who prosecute us and pray for them ?

Isn’t that both side have not loved God with all their hearts, souls, and strength? Yes.

If both side have loved God with their hearts! Don’t their souls or minds also consider that the other side has also suffered? Both side may suffer wrong! Yes, having the compassion of the Lord will allow the eyes of our hearts to perceive the suffering of others. In walking the way of the Lord, we may suffer for what is right but we aren’t afraid because God is love and He cast all our fears and give us strength to release forgiveness to others who offend us, and bear those who continue not understanding us in Christ.

Yes, let us not judge but show mercy tho those who wronged us.

So who may do what is right ? Do in accord what the Lord have said : forgive us those who wronged you, love your enemies who prosecute you and pray for them !

Unless we have the strength of the Lord, we are unable to release forgiveness to others !

Unless we have loved the Lord, we are unable to love and pray for those who prosecuted us!

So let us wait for the steadfast love of the Lord and His mercies. For they are new every morning. Great is our Lord’s faithfulness.

Let the Lord be our portion and then we will have hope.

When the Lord who is Love is our portion, His Spirit will lead us to love in knowledge and discretion toward those who wronged us.

Yes, we will have hope of peace. When we live in peace of Christ that surpass understanding! The hearts and minds who once have hated are brought to love in union with Christ Jesus.

Let us long who may be saved from this hate!

Joyous Song · Apr 16, 2021

SANTOSO said:
Dear JS,
I understand your points.

I don’t mind that you have a different view from me. I just share my good intentions to you, that I speak the truth in love to you, or even those who are homosexual. May Holy Spirit lead us into all truth, and we will know the truth and the truth will set us free.

Let me talk about the points that you shared me with me. I get it that you understand homosexuality is sin but you are concerned with those who judge people who are homosexual as if they haven’t themselves aware of their sins that you have mentioned. Are they not sinners or even worse than the homosexual?

Have you heard this before :
(21) Evil will kill the wicked,
and those who hate the righteous will be condemned..-Psalm 34:21 CJB

Yes, there may be many who professed to believe in Christ but have not obeyed what the Lord has taught in union with Him; Doesn’t God’s wrath remain on them ? Are they considered to practice lawlessness ?
Are they considered evildoers ? Yes, they are. Unless they repent in true contrition and walk by the Spirit, they can’t put to death the practice of the flesh.

What is the use of comparing who are evil and wicked ? Are the homosexual considered wicked or evil ? So who will kill who ? Then truly who are saved ! Aren’t those whom the Lord counted righteous who will be saved ? Yes. Even we can see the grace that God give the righteous that He will not allow those hate the righteous uncondemned. Yes, God promise that those who hate the righteous will be condemned!

So how do those who are presently evil or wicked escape from this condemnation?

If they have been baptized with water, they should not continue in sin. If they have sinned, they should repent wholeheartedly.
Then they can walk in the newness of life, that is, walking in the way of the Spirit.

This is what we have heard:
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also FORGIVE you, -Matthew 6:14

Those who have committed the acts of same sex union may offend us. Despite that, we are told to release forgiveness to them so that we have compassion on those who have suffered wrong to come back to the Lord’s grace of repentance.

Likewise, those who have believed Christ and have not walked in obedience to what Christ has taught may also bring us shame and dishonor to us who hold the faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in high regard; yes, they do offend us, too ; despite that, we are told to release forgiveness to them so that they understand the compassion of the Lord who still calls them out of darkness that they come to light and repent of their wicked ways and unrighteous thoughts and be found in the grace of repentance of our Lord.

Daily we need to release forgiveness to them who accuse us, hurt us, disappoint us, upset us, mistreat us, resent us, reject us, and abandon us, wrong us, offend us so that we find ourselves in the mercy of Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

When many have HURT us that deep ? Is it easy to release forgiveness? May be we even consider those HURT us as our natural enemies? But this is what we have heard:

But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, -Matthew 5:44

How is it possible that we can love our enemies and obey what our Lord have told us to do ?

Now many homosexuals draw upon laws against those who are Christians who don’t accepts their norms and values ? Don’t they hate ?

Yes, there are also many who believe in Christ but walked in lawlessness— that threw many verbal violence at the homosexual. Do they also hate ?

Can these two enemies be reconciled ?
Aren’t those whom the Lord counted righteous are also hated and condemned not because of their fault ? Aren’t those homosexual who have repent caught in this cross fire of hate ? Aren’t those lawless Christians who repent of verbal violence are also caught in this condemnation?

When both sides are in so much hate, full of arguments and lofty opinions ! Are they able to love and come to obedience to Christ?
Why is it difficult to love others who prosecute us and pray for them ?

Isn’t that both side have not loved God with all their hearts, souls, and strength? Yes.

If both side have loved God with their hearts! Don’t their souls or minds also consider that the other side has also suffered? Both side may suffer wrong! Yes, having the compassion of the Lord will allow the eyes of our hearts to perceive the suffering of others. In walking the way of the Lord, we may suffer for what is right but we aren’t afraid because God is love and He cast all our fears and give us strength to release forgiveness to others who offend us, and bear those who continue not understanding us in Christ.

Yes, let us not judge but show mercy tho those who wronged us.

So who may do what is right ? Do in accord what the Lord have said : forgive us those who wronged you, love your enemies who prosecute you and pray for them !

Unless we have the strength of the Lord, we are unable to release forgiveness to others !

Unless we have loved the Lord, we are unable to love and pray for those who prosecuted us!

So let us wait for the steadfast love of the Lord and His mercies. For they are new every morning. Great is our Lord’s faithfulness.

Let the Lord be our portion and then we will have hope.

When the Lord who is Love is our portion, His Spirit will lead us to love in knowledge and discretion toward those who wronged us.

Yes, we will have hope of peace. When we live in peace of Christ that surpass understanding! The hearts and minds who once have hated are brought to love in union with Christ Jesus.

Let us long who may be saved from this hate!

JS: Let me tell you a story and perhaps you might understand me a little better:

My sister and her family were typical dutiful Christians, going to Church once a week, and during the holidays and teaching their children about the love of G-d. So when her daughter fell in love with another woman it took her by surprise.

But her daughter was baptized and thus redeemed, and as such she likely felt the L-rd would convict her. Yet that love grew stronger, strong enough the local priest got wind of this. He confronted her daughter condemning her sin and her love and telling her she was not welcome among them.

When she left so did her entire family and my sister began to doubt everything she had learned about homosexuals. She became in a way a redeemed smoker, seeing not only greater sin in the actions of that priest but also seeing no real discernible sin in her daughter’s actions.

I said much as you said to me. To my enlightened mind I thought I was being reasonable, merciful. She only heard those hunting words from the Paths of the Dead: “The way is shut, its been made by the dead, and the dead keep it.”

By the time I met with her I knew the story of Sodom and Gomorrah was not about homosexuality but about a far different sin: What’s mine is mine and what’s yours is yours.” I did not know of Leviticus most quoted passage on homosexuality was actually sexual predictors using their power to corrupt youth. We also had a sin we judged harshly, and lost, both his respect for our witnesses and his faith as well. Therefore, I also should have known none of my arguments matter, because I hadn’t been listening really.

She was saying: I’m redeemed, my husband is redeemed, all our children were baptized and throughout their lives up until this moment walking in the Light. Indeed their children believed as munch themselves. They done everything they knew the redeemed should do, raised their children in the Way to walk in the Way and so her words were crying out for help not judgment!

When her daughter fell in love with another woman, my sister decided not to judge her, knowing from her older sister that judgment thrown out when youths are venerable often shoves them into the very relationship you were seeking them to avoid. This happen to our sister who married an alcoholic who also may have been an adulterer while drunk.

So she knew from her own sister actions, judging her daughter would only makes things worse. She and her husband thought it would pass but time passed and it did not. Yet during this time she also saw no lust visible between those two. They even waited till they could be married civically after the priest refused them.

Herein then why I quoted 1Rom.1-2 for the sin we do that are made manifest when we judge homosexuals is being “factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.” 2.9 and then Paul explains further:

“But if you call yourself a Jew (today this Word is for Us not only Jews) and relay upon the Law and boast of your relation of G-d and know His Will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed in the Law, and you are sure you are a guide to the blind, a light to those in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the Law the the embodiment of knowledge and truth – you who teach others, will you not teach yourself?”

The “sin” of homosexuality is in the LAW. Its a law like keeping Kosher, the Sabbath and the High Holy Days, a Jewish Law. I always find it strange that those who condemn Hebrews for keeping Hahalacha often point to Hebrew Laws to justify judging another. Yet a simply study of homosexuality in the Bible brings an interesting fact forward, the Hebrew Scriptures do not judge clearly homosexual sins, and even the New Testament is interpretive:

1) Gen.19 – Sodom and Gomorrah- the sin of “what’s mine is mine; and what’s yours is yours: thus I read this you are not to give charity as it makes me look bad.
2) Jud.19 – echoes Gen.10 but now Ephraim has that sin.
3)Lev. 18.22, 20.13 man lies with a young male, sin of pedophilia and power corrupts
4) 1Cor.6.8 – sexual perverts (fornication used to mean sex out of wedlock) are lust likely but not clearly defined as homosexuality
5) 1 Tim.1.10 – see 1 Cor.6.8

Even the texts of Genesis 1-2 and Christ talks of marriage do not say same sex is damning if they love each other, only that male to female is the preferred model. Indeed, if lustful homosexuals are not to be judged because we potentially carry the same sin, what gives us the right to judge non lustful homosexuals or those claiming love not lust?

And then to those Paul makes clear in 1Cor.2 that he who is judging people actually seems to all purposes holy, and yet they are told, “you who teach others, will you not teach yourself?”

Therefore you are correct, we may never completely be able to see eye to eye on all things. You see, I’m understand extremely well exactly why man leaves his mother and a woman leaves her home and the two become One- Echad. Yet even so, I refuse to judge beyond all forms of lust (fornication), but leave all judgment of potential “sin” cause my “misguided love” as some believe to the Messiah, when He returns.

topher694 · Apr 16, 2021

SANTOSO · Apr 17, 2021

Joyous Song said:
JS: Let me tell you a story and perhaps you might understand me a little better:

My sister and her family were typical dutiful Christians, going to Church once a week, and during the holidays and teaching their children about the love of G-d. So when her daughter fell in love with another woman it took her by surprise.

But her daughter was baptized and thus redeemed, and as such she likely felt the L-rd would convict her. Yet that love grew stronger, strong enough the local priest got wind of this. He confronted her daughter condemning her sin and her love and telling her she was not welcome among them.

When she left so did her entire family and my sister began to doubt everything she had learned about homosexuals. She became in a way a redeemed smoker, seeing not only greater sin in the actions of that priest but also seeing no real discernible sin in her daughter’s actions.

I said much as you said to me. To my enlightened mind I thought I was being reasonable, merciful. She only heard those hunting words from the Paths of the Dead: “The way is shut, its been made by the dead, and the dead keep it.”

By the time I met with her I knew the story of Sodom and Gomorrah was not about homosexuality but about a far different sin: What’s mine is mine and what’s yours is yours.” I did not know of Leviticus most quoted passage on homosexuality was actually sexual predictors using their power to corrupt youth. We also had a sin we judged harshly, and lost, both his respect for our witnesses and his faith as well. Therefore, I also should have known none of my arguments matter, because I hadn’t been listening really.

She was saying: I’m redeemed, my husband is redeemed, all our children were baptized and throughout their lives up until this moment walking in the Light. Indeed their children believed as munch themselves. They done everything they knew the redeemed should do, raised their children in the Way to walk in the Way and so her words were crying out for help not judgment!

When her daughter fell in love with another woman, my sister decided not to judge her, knowing from her older sister that judgment thrown out when youths are venerable often shoves them into the very relationship you were seeking them to avoid. This happen to our sister who married an alcoholic who also may have been an adulterer while drunk.

So she knew from her own sister actions, judging her daughter would only makes things worse. She and her husband thought it would pass but time passed and it did not. Yet during this time she also saw no lust visible between those two. They even waited till they could be married civically after the priest refused them.

Herein then why I quoted 1Rom.1-2 for the sin we do that are made manifest when we judge homosexuals is being “factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.” 2.9 and then Paul explains further:

“But if you call yourself a Jew (today this Word is for Us not only Jews) and relay upon the Law and boast of your relation of G-d and know His Will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed in the Law, and you are sure you are a guide to the blind, a light to those in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the Law the the embodiment of knowledge and truth – you who teach others, will you not teach yourself?”

The “sin” of homosexuality is in the LAW. Its a law like keeping Kosher, the Sabbath and the High Holy Days, a Jewish Law. I always find it strange that those who condemn Hebrews for keeping Hahalacha often point to Hebrew Laws to justify judging another. Yet a simply study of homosexuality in the Bible brings an interesting fact forward, the Hebrew Scriptures do not judge clearly homosexual sins, and even the New Testament is interpretive:

1) Gen.19 – Sodom and Gomorrah- the sin of “what’s mine is mine; and what’s yours is yours: thus I read this you are not to give charity as it makes me look bad.
2) Jud.19 – echoes Gen.10 but now Ephraim has that sin.
3)Lev. 18.22, 20.13 man lies with a young male, sin of pedophilia and power corrupts
4) 1Cor.6.8 – sexual perverts (fornication used to mean sex out of wedlock) are lust likely but not clearly defined as homosexuality
5) 1 Tim.1.10 – see 1 Cor.6.8

Even the texts of Genesis 1-2 and Christ talks of marriage do not say same sex is damning if they love each other, only that male to female is the preferred model. Indeed, if lustful homosexuals are not to be judged because we potentially carry the same sin, what gives us the right to judge non lustful homosexuals or those claiming love not lust?

And then to those Paul makes clear in 1Cor.2 that he who is judging people actually seems to all purposes holy, and yet they are told, “you who teach others, will you not teach yourself?”

Therefore you are correct, we may never completely be able to see eye to eye on all things. You see, I’m understand extremely well exactly why man leaves his mother and a woman leaves her home and the two become One- Echad. Yet even so, I refuse to judge beyond all forms of lust (fornication), but leave all judgment of potential “sin” cause my “misguided love” as some believe to the Messiah, when He returns.

Dear JS,
I understand your love for your niece’s well being, and inasmuch to your sister and her family. Reaching to someone who is close to your heart, indeed, as your sister and you have understood require a greater sense of sensitivity to be COMPASSIONATE; in that you understand your niece suffering for being wrongfully treated by the priest and those in the church. That is why the Lord teaches us to walk in His ways, that is, to show mercy, compassion, slow to anger and rich in grace and truth. You will do nothing wrong to your niece when you treat her according to the Lord’s way.

You may have said much to your niece what Bible have said for her good but she felt much shut in and condemned. She have not considered for the same sex union as SELF INDULGENCE but rather she considered as love. I understand not only homosexual have this self indulgence but also there are adulterers and fornicators. Why they can’t see or perceive ! Because they are in the dark ; they can’t see or perceive the correct perspective.

What causes much sin ? That many can’t perceive and understood ! Aren’t they — self righteousness and self love ?

Self righteousness and self love have ARGUMENTS and LOFTY opinions that are contrary to what our Lord have taught.

Is there no way to reach in love and save to those who have lost in the way of the Lord, including the homosexual?

I consider that we can still pray on behalf of those who have failed to be persuaded like the homosexual and others. And the Lord will hear our prayers.
Are we hypocrites? No.
When we come humbly to the Lord seeking His mercy daily and release forgiveness to those who wronged us ! We have met the condition to be forgiven by the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus, we are made right not by our righteousness but we are made right by Christ’s sacrifice. When we are made right through Christ! The Lord will hear our appeal for mercy to those whom are closed to our hearts.

It may be impossible for us but nothing is impossible to do God to do good to those whom we love that have lost their way in the Lord.

Dear JS, don’t concern yourself with those who judge your niece. Even when those judge no longer judge ! Your niece will still be hurt and in pain when remembering past events.

What we can do for those who are hurt and whom we desire that they find peace — that we continue to show mercy, compassionate, slow to anger, rich in grace and truth — and pray on their behalf for mercy ! For deliverance! For emotional healing ! For peace!

What concern those who are homosexual who repent — who can remove our scorn and contempt?
This is what we have heard:
Remove scorn and contempt from me,
because I observe Your instruction.-Psalms 119:22 CJB

Joyous Song · Apr 18, 2021

SANTOSO said:
Dear JS,
I understand your love for your niece’s well being, and inasmuch to your sister and her family. Reaching to someone who is close to your heart, indeed, as your sister and you have understood require a greater sense of sensitivity to be COMPASSIONATE; in that you understand your niece suffering for being wrongfully treated by the priest and those in the church. That is why the Lord teaches us to walk in His ways, that is, to show mercy, compassion, slow to anger and rich in grace and truth. You will do nothing wrong to your niece when you treat her according to the Lord’s way.

You may have said much to your niece what Bible have said for her good but she felt much shut in and condemned. She have not considered for the same sex union as SELF INDULGENCE but rather she considered as love. I understand not only homosexual have this self indulgence but also there are adulterers and fornicators. Why they can’t see or perceive ! Because they are in the dark ; they can’t see or perceive the correct perspective.

What causes much sin ? That many can’t perceive and understood ! Aren’t they — self righteousness and self love ?

Self righteousness and self love have ARGUMENTS and LOFTY opinions that are contrary to what our Lord have taught.

Is there no way to reach in love and save to those who have lost in the way of the Lord, including the homosexual?

I consider that we can still pray on behalf of those who have failed to be persuaded like the homosexual and others. And the Lord will hear our prayers.
Are we hypocrites? No.
When we come humbly to the Lord seeking His mercy daily and release forgiveness to those who wronged us ! We have met the condition to be forgiven by the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus, we are made right not by our righteousness but we are made right by Christ’s sacrifice. When we are made right through Christ! The Lord will hear our appeal for mercy to those whom are closed to our hearts.

It may be impossible for us but nothing is impossible to do God to do good to those whom we love that have lost their way in the Lord.

Dear JS, don’t concern yourself with those who judge your niece. Even when those judge no longer judge ! Your niece will still be hurt and in pain when remembering past events.

What we can do for those who are hurt and whom we desire that they find peace — that we continue to show mercy, compassionate, slow to anger, rich in grace and truth — and pray on their behalf for mercy ! For deliverance! For emotional healing ! For peace!

What concern those who are homosexual who repent — who can remove our scorn and contempt?
This is what we have heard:
Remove scorn and contempt from me,
because I observe Your instruction.-Psalms 119:22 CJB

SANTOSO: I agree with much of what you said. I agree asking for forgiveness with a heart of true repentance can bring forgiveness, but that forgiveness last till we sin again. Thus in our Church our shepherd tells us at the start of the Mass to ask forgiveness for intentional and unintentional sins so our prayers during the Mass will be fruitful and are hearts heady to receive Him.

My husband suggested asked me, “How do you define sin?” He stated that this is important to bring understanding through commonality. Then he explained that any imperfection we have to the fullness of perfection HaShem intended for us is sin. Thus, sin is anything that takes us away from loving HaShem with whole heart, mind and soul and our neighbor as ourselves.

So there is no doubt that if man was divided to form woman to be his helper, Gen.2 then clearly this is indeed the preferred coupling. Still, though other couplings are not as clean, I use instead of sinful though sin works I suppose, this is no different and any other means of falling short. Indeed, it’s not even one of the ten commandments. We all, even under grace or like you said or we would not pray in our prayers for forgiveness, repentance and return.

My husband also reiterated the parable of removing the plank from our own eyes before trying to remove the splinter from our neighbor’s. We need to understand the path necessary to help the next person. If we do know, nor understand very well, then that is more cause for being merciful, since the measure we give is the measure we shall receive….

I would also add that once Paul had a sin that he could not overcome because of some weakness. HaShem told him, His Grace was sufficient. This might be true for some homosexuals like my niece for I felt strongly not to convict her of this sin, so I suspect this. Likewise, with others with this I do not judge but believe firmly that if we lead them to faith, or to renewed faith, without judgment, and strengthen they communication with HaShem, praise be He, He can convict them If He feels they cannot reach holiness without such a conviction, or He can say as He said to Paul:

My Grace is sufficient. JS

SANTOSO · Apr 21, 2021

Joyous Song said:
SANTOSO: I agree with much of what you said. I agree asking for forgiveness with a heart of true repentance can bring forgiveness, but that forgiveness last till we sin again. Thus in our Church our shepherd tells us at the start of the Mass to ask forgiveness for intentional and unintentional sins so our prayers during the Mass will be fruitful and are hearts heady to receive Him.

My husband suggested asked me, “How do you define sin?” He stated that this is important to bring understanding through commonality. Then he explained that any imperfection we have to the fullness of perfection HaShem intended for us is sin. Thus, sin is anything that takes us away from loving HaShem with whole heart, mind and soul and our neighbor as ourselves.

So there is no doubt that if man was divided to form woman to be his helper, Gen.2 then clearly this is indeed the preferred coupling. Still, though other couplings are not as clean, I use instead of sinful though sin works I suppose, this is no different and any other means of falling short. Indeed, it’s not even one of the ten commandments. We all, even under grace or like you said or we would not pray in our prayers for forgiveness, repentance and return.

My husband also reiterated the parable of removing the plank from our own eyes before trying to remove the splinter from our neighbor’s. We need to understand the path necessary to help the next person. If we do know, nor understand very well, then that is more cause for being merciful, since the measure we give is the measure we shall receive….

I would also add that once Paul had a sin that he could not overcome because of some weakness. HaShem told him, His Grace was sufficient. This might be true for some homosexuals like my niece for I felt strongly not to convict her of this sin, so I suspect this. Likewise, with others with this I do not judge but believe firmly that if we lead them to faith, or to renewed faith, without judgment, and strengthen they communication with HaShem, praise be He, He can convict them If He feels they cannot reach holiness without such a conviction, or He can say as He said to Paul:

My Grace is sufficient. JS

Dear JS,
I find it good that you acknowledge the grace of God is sufficient for you and your niece. I understand you and your husband have good intentions and thoughts, especially for your niece; that you both want your niece to have a renewed faith in Christ and develop good relations with Hashem.

Dear JS,
I do want you to understand something, hopefully you come to understand what I imply through an example.

Consider that you ask a person: Are you able to drink when you want to or not drink when you want to ? Obviously, the answer is that they can. You can understand JS, that they can have the strength or the will to drink or not to drink.

Now, consider when a person who is drunk who tell you that he or she doesn’t want to drink anymore but when they see or smell a drink, he/she can stop himself/herself from drinking. What is happening?
Is it not his/her will to stop drinking? Why he/she doesn’t have the strength not to drink ? What happens to his/her will or his/her strength?

That is because his/her will no longer apply ; for his/her will is subject to his/her master. In other words, he/she was enslaved to SIN.

That is why we heard:
For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. -Romans 7:15
So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. -Romans 7:17

What I am trying to say is that even if the homosexual wants to go straight, he/she can’t ! Why they are under bondage, just like the drink addict ! Likewise, also the adulterers and fornicators who are sex addict ! They need to seek the Lord’s deliverance.

Likewise, we heard:
And someone from the crowd answered him, "Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has a spirit that makes him mute. -Mark 9:17
And whenever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid. So I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they were not able." -Mark 9:18

Just as there is an evil spirit that makes a person mute, there is an evil spirit that person addicted to drink, sex, same sex union, etc.

How can I be sure of that ? This is what I have heard:
in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the ( evil ) spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience' -Ephesians 2:2
among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. -Ephesians 2:3

So dear JS,
If you love your niece, seek the Lord’s help to deliver her. Ask for help, just like the father whose son has an evil spirit that makes him mute.

Then you will find the answer and the peace that you are seeking, just like the father whose son that the Lord delivered from evil spirit.

That father has found the grace of God that is sufficient when he and his son met Jesus.

GTW27 · Apr 22, 2021

Blessings in Christ Jesus! Perhaps a testimony may enlighten the way this thread has turned. Even thou I am unworthy of the measure of grace I have been given, I am a man that does walk in The Spirit and preaches in The Spirit as The Lord sees fit. In other words it is all Him. When out in the world if per chance I encounter another who truly is born from above I instantly am in The Spirit as The Spirit bears witness to The Spirit. On the other hand if perchance I encounter the enemy out there, this is also identified by a spiritual headache weather inside or out side a person. There is no mistaking this. I remember long ago I was invited to a dinner. At this dinner was a female and with her was her partner, which was also female. They were nice to me but they had no idea that I could perceive in both of them, which in turn gave me a spiritual headache. To me this means that both of these people had a visitor but where not aware of it. This was a time for me to be wise as a serpent but as innocent as a dove. The dinner went well, but there was something to be learned from it. This many years later I know in my heart that anyone who comes truly to The Lord when He calls them, when He enters in(Behold I stand at the door and knock) that any visitors flee before Him, for He is Holy. The desire for unnatural lust returns to what it was before the visitors. I have written these words for the sake of consideration and not for the sake of argument. Hopefully it will Bless some one.

Joyous Song · Apr 23, 2021

SANTOSO said:
Dear JS,
I find it good that you acknowledge the grace of God is sufficient for you and your niece. I understand you and your husband have good intentions and thoughts, especially for your niece; that you both want your niece to have a renewed faith in Christ and develop good relations with Hashem.

Dear JS,
I do want you to understand something, hopefully you come to understand what I imply through an example.

Consider that you ask a person: Are you able to drink when you want to or not drink when you want to ? Obviously, the answer is that they can. You can understand JS, that they can have the strength or the will to drink or not to drink.

Now, consider when a person who is drunk who tell you that he or she doesn’t want to drink anymore but when they see or smell a drink, he/she can stop himself/herself from drinking. What is happening?
Is it not his/her will to stop drinking? Why he/she doesn’t have the strength not to drink ? What happens to his/her will or his/her strength?

That is because his/her will no longer apply ; for his/her will is subject to his/her master. In other words, he/she was enslaved to SIN.

That is why we heard:
For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. -Romans 7:15
So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. -Romans 7:17

What I am trying to say is that even if the homosexual wants to go straight, he/she can’t ! Why they are under bondage, just like the drink addict ! Likewise, also the adulterers and fornicators who are sex addict ! They need to seek the Lord’s deliverance.

Likewise, we heard:
And someone from the crowd answered him, "Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has a spirit that makes him mute. -Mark 9:17
And whenever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid. So I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they were not able." -Mark 9:18

Just as there is an evil spirit that makes a person mute, there is an evil spirit that person addicted to drink, sex, same sex union, etc.

How can I be sure of that ? This is what I have heard:
in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the ( evil ) spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience' -Ephesians 2:2
among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. -Ephesians 2:3

So dear JS,
If you love your niece, seek the Lord’s help to deliver her. Ask for help, just like the father whose son has an evil spirit that makes him mute.

Then you will find the answer and the peace that you are seeking, just like the father whose son that the Lord delivered from evil spirit.

That father has found the grace of God that is sufficient when he and his son met Jesus.

Shalom Santoso, my friend, I do not think you fully understand Paul’s words you quoted in Romans 7.17. It is not followed by, him seeking the L-rd to deliver him, as he was already told “My Grace is sufficient”. This after he admitting, “wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from my sin?”

He answers: “Thanks be to G-d through Jesus Christ our L-rd! So then, I myself serve the Law of G-d with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” 24-25

So he did not repent because of the cross, he had tried and failed over and over again. He threw his weakness to HaMoshiach Who replied, “My Grace is sufficient” which allows him to serve HaShem with whole heart, mind and soul and to perfect himself in all other areas, except for this one issue of the Law were he cannot overcome. He however is covered - period!

I admit I also struggled to understand this myself. So I suppose another short story might clarify this issue of what exactly “My Grace is sufficient” means.

Back in 1996 I had a dream: “First comes the interest; then comes the principle”. From this dream and many more dreams, visions and coincidences that in time were no longer are seen as such, my husband and I started to learn Jewish Laws as HaShem’s Will in our lives. So we took up a Jewish identity, one Law, and measure: by one Law and measure, a little here; a little there.

All I remember from back then is our first few Passovers were far from anything Jewish, yet as the years passed we grew better and better at keeping these traditions. By the end of the High Holy Days, last year, to look into our household and an Orthodox Jewish household, you would have seen Orthodox Jews.

Then around Purim when we started preparing for Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread, I faced the perfect storm of problems. First our eldest daughter developed a strange case of dizziness and everything she ate, she threw up. Around the same time we had enough money to remove our youngest daughters wisdom teeth and one molar. She ended up on a highly limited diet which weakened her considerably.

And if that’s not all, we were grace by the Bishop announcing my husband was accepted into the priesthood. He was to face a crash course over the next two months and if all went as planned he be ordained sometimes in the late spring (it will now be early May).

All this came down just as I was starting to clean for Passover. So instead of having help from two daughters and my husband, suddenly I had extra cooking, household cleaning for four, had three different diets to prepare, the weekly Shabbos prep and cleaning and a house to kosher for Passover!

I’m not going to go into koshering for Passover, only that doing so while taking care of so many people and keeping the weekly sabbath was impossible. Then I had the dream where I was told, “MY Grace is sufficient; whatever you can do, will be enough!”

Now, we are told once we reach a level of holiness we are never to go backward. The race toward perfection is forward only! Yet in the situation above, I fell short not because I was lazy, or disobedient but because so many things, outside my control, were set up to make keeping Passover perfectly, impossible. So in the race Paul describes I did not stop, I backed up, for a time…

So did I commit a sin? Technically, according to Jewish laws, yes. Yet like Paul I’m covered by the cross because the LAW any LAW even the laws against homosexuality is NOT Salvaic. We keep laws because they teach, help us become closer to G-d, because He said so and can discipline us, yet not for salvation. Salvation comes from the Cross, thus we are indeed free to keep His Law perfectly, in our hearts; even as we fall short because of our human condition.

My promise “His Grace is Sufficient”, was only for this Passover and Chag Hamotzo; Next year things will return to normal. So I admit, I was puzzled why did I face this year this “perfect storm”. Now I believe it was so I better understood His words about my niece and thus all homosexuals. If His Grace is sufficient, her redemption was never at risk because Laws, all laws are under Grace where the Redeemed fall short through no fault of their own, are covered.]

And if His Grace is sufficient as regards her and her partners love, then all of Romans 7.21-25 applies to them and their love. As you said: “If you love your niece, seek the L-rd’s help to deliver her.” We did last year when we found out, got that message that His Grace covers them and then when, like you, we did not understand that remark, faced that perfect storm just as Passover cleaning started: we learn the true meaning to: “My Grace is sufficient”.

Put another way no Law supersedes Grace even the Law of marriage being between man and woman:

“For all who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Curse be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no man is justified before G-d by the Law; for “righteousness shall live by faith,” but the Law does not rest on faith, for “he who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become that curse for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree”...” Gal.3.10-13

SANTOSO · Apr 24, 2021

Joyous Song said:
Shalom Santoso, my friend, I do not think you fully understand Paul’s words you quoted in Romans 7.17. It is not followed by, him seeking the L-rd to deliver him, as he was already told “My Grace is sufficient”. This after he admitting, “wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from my sin?”

He answers: “Thanks be to G-d through Jesus Christ our L-rd! So then, I myself serve the Law of G-d with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” 24-25

So he did not repent because of the cross, he had tried and failed over and over again. He threw his weakness to HaMoshiach Who replied, “My Grace is sufficient” which allows him to serve HaShem with whole heart, mind and soul and to perfect himself in all other areas, except for this one issue of the Law were he cannot overcome. He however is covered - period!

I admit I also struggled to understand this myself. So I suppose another short story might clarify this issue of what exactly “My Grace is sufficient” means.

Back in 1996 I had a dream: “First comes the interest; then comes the principle”. From this dream and many more dreams, visions and coincidences that in time were no longer are seen as such, my husband and I started to learn Jewish Laws as HaShem’s Will in our lives. So we took up a Jewish identity, one Law, and measure: by one Law and measure, a little here; a little there.

All I remember from back then is our first few Passovers were far from anything Jewish, yet as the years passed we grew better and better at keeping these traditions. By the end of the High Holy Days, last year, to look into our household and an Orthodox Jewish household, you would have seen Orthodox Jews.

Then around Purim when we started preparing for Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread, I faced the perfect storm of problems. First our eldest daughter developed a strange case of dizziness and everything she ate, she threw up. Around the same time we had enough money to remove our youngest daughters wisdom teeth and one molar. She ended up on a highly limited diet which weakened her considerably.

And if that’s not all, we were grace by the Bishop announcing my husband was accepted into the priesthood. He was to face a crash course over the next two months and if all went as planned he be ordained sometimes in the late spring (it will now be early May).

All this came down just as I was starting to clean for Passover. So instead of having help from two daughters and my husband, suddenly I had extra cooking, household cleaning for four, had three different diets to prepare, the weekly Shabbos prep and cleaning and a house to kosher for Passover!

I’m not going to go into koshering for Passover, only that doing so while taking care of so many people and keeping the weekly sabbath was impossible. Then I had the dream where I was told, “MY Grace is sufficient; whatever you can do, will be enough!”

Now, we are told once we reach a level of holiness we are never to go backward. The race toward perfection is forward only! Yet in the situation above, I fell short not because I was lazy, or disobedient but because so many things, outside my control, were set up to make keeping Passover perfectly, impossible. So in the race Paul describes I did not stop, I backed up, for a time…

So did I commit a sin? Technically, according to Jewish laws, yes. Yet like Paul I’m covered by the cross because the LAW any LAW even the laws against homosexuality is NOT Salvaic. We keep laws because they teach, help us become closer to G-d, because He said so and can discipline us, yet not for salvation. Salvation comes from the Cross, thus we are indeed free to keep His Law perfectly, in our hearts; even as we fall short because of our human condition.

My promise “His Grace is Sufficient”, was only for this Passover and Chag Hamotzo; Next year things will return to normal. So I admit, I was puzzled why did I face this year this “perfect storm”. Now I believe it was so I better understood His words about my niece and thus all homosexuals. If His Grace is sufficient, her redemption was never at risk because Laws, all laws are under Grace where the Redeemed fall short through no fault of their own, are covered.]

And if His Grace is sufficient as regards her and her partners love, then all of Romans 7.21-25 applies to them and their love. As you said: “If you love your niece, seek the L-rd’s help to deliver her.” We did last year when we found out, got that message that His Grace covers them and then when, like you, we did not understand that remark, faced that perfect storm just as Passover cleaning started: we learn the true meaning to: “My Grace is sufficient”.

Put another way no Law supersedes Grace even the Law of marriage being between man and woman:

“For all who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Curse be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no man is justified before G-d by the Law; for “righteousness shall live by faith,” but the Law does not rest on faith, for “he who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become that curse for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree”...” Gal.3.10-13

Shalom JS,
Please consider again what you have heard.

This is what we have heard:
So I FIND it TO BE A LAW that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. -Romans 7:21

Let us discover what apostle Paul find !

For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, -Romans 7:22

So when apostle want to do what is right ! Apostle Paul delight in the law of God in his inner being or heart !

Then apostle Paul continued to say:

but I see in my members ANOTHER LAW waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to THE LAW OF SIN that dwells in my members. -Romans 7:23

So when apostle Paul was delighting in the law of God in his inner being ; apostle Paul also have the LAW OF GOD on his mind ; that is why apostle Paul have said as THE LAW OF his mind.

Why apostle Paul said “delight in the law of God in his inner being” then consider as “the law of God as the law of his mind”.

To understand what happened ; we need to understand this:

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul (mind) and of spirit (heart),
of joints and of marrow,
and discerning the THOUGHTS and INTENTIONS of the heart. -Hebrews 4:12

When apostle Paul delighted in the law of God in his inner being or heart or spirit; the word of God is living and active ; therefore apostle discern ANOTHER LAW that wage against THE LAW OF GOD, that is on his mind.

What is this that has said as ANOTHER LAW ?
that law is the LAW OF SIN !

Yes, apostle Paul have said :
Wretched man that I am! Who will DELIVER ME from this body of death? -Romans 7:24

Thanks be to God THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, BUT with my flesh I serve the law of sin. -Romans 7:25

Why do apostle Paul give thanks? Yes, apostle Paul gives thanks to God through Jesus Christ ; it is because our Lord Jesus Christ who delivers apostle Paul from this body of death !

So then, apostle Paul himself decide to serve
the law of God with his mind !

Why in Roman 7:25, there is BUT ? So do he serve the law of God on his mind or do he serve the flesh ?

If you said apostle Paul serve the flesh! Why apostle Paul have to thank God through Jesus Christ?

If you said, that apostle Paul serve the law of God on his mind and also serve the flesh ? Why apostle Paul have to say BUT ? Why not he said AND ?

If you read further in the book of Romans in chapter 8, apostle Paul have said this:

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, BUT those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. -Romans 8:5
For to set the mind on the flesh is death, BUT to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. -Romans 8:6

Do you still consider that apostle Paul serve the flesh SERVE THE LAW OF SIN ?

Why apostle Paul then spoke this ? : Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

THEN, apostle Paul said THIS :
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind ?

So apostle Paul considers those serve the flesh serve the law of sin as WRETCHED ! If they are not delivered ! That is why apostle Paul have said himself serve the law of God on his mind.

So dear JS,
consider carefully what you have heard !!!

SANTOSO · Apr 24, 2021

Joyous Song said:
Shalom Santoso, my friend, I do not think you fully understand Paul’s words you quoted in Romans 7.17. It is not followed by, him seeking the L-rd to deliver him, as he was already told “My Grace is sufficient”. This after he admitting, “wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from my sin?”

He answers: “Thanks be to G-d through Jesus Christ our L-rd! So then, I myself serve the Law of G-d with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” 24-25

So he did not repent because of the cross, he had tried and failed over and over again. He threw his weakness to HaMoshiach Who replied, “My Grace is sufficient” which allows him to serve HaShem with whole heart, mind and soul and to perfect himself in all other areas, except for this one issue of the Law were he cannot overcome. He however is covered - period!

I admit I also struggled to understand this myself. So I suppose another short story might clarify this issue of what exactly “My Grace is sufficient” means.

Back in 1996 I had a dream: “First comes the interest; then comes the principle”. From this dream and many more dreams, visions and coincidences that in time were no longer are seen as such, my husband and I started to learn Jewish Laws as HaShem’s Will in our lives. So we took up a Jewish identity, one Law, and measure: by one Law and measure, a little here; a little there.

All I remember from back then is our first few Passovers were far from anything Jewish, yet as the years passed we grew better and better at keeping these traditions. By the end of the High Holy Days, last year, to look into our household and an Orthodox Jewish household, you would have seen Orthodox Jews.

Then around Purim when we started preparing for Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread, I faced the perfect storm of problems. First our eldest daughter developed a strange case of dizziness and everything she ate, she threw up. Around the same time we had enough money to remove our youngest daughters wisdom teeth and one molar. She ended up on a highly limited diet which weakened her considerably.

And if that’s not all, we were grace by the Bishop announcing my husband was accepted into the priesthood. He was to face a crash course over the next two months and if all went as planned he be ordained sometimes in the late spring (it will now be early May).

All this came down just as I was starting to clean for Passover. So instead of having help from two daughters and my husband, suddenly I had extra cooking, household cleaning for four, had three different diets to prepare, the weekly Shabbos prep and cleaning and a house to kosher for Passover!

I’m not going to go into koshering for Passover, only that doing so while taking care of so many people and keeping the weekly sabbath was impossible. Then I had the dream where I was told, “MY Grace is sufficient; whatever you can do, will be enough!”

Now, we are told once we reach a level of holiness we are never to go backward. The race toward perfection is forward only! Yet in the situation above, I fell short not because I was lazy, or disobedient but because so many things, outside my control, were set up to make keeping Passover perfectly, impossible. So in the race Paul describes I did not stop, I backed up, for a time…

So did I commit a sin? Technically, according to Jewish laws, yes. Yet like Paul I’m covered by the cross because the LAW any LAW even the laws against homosexuality is NOT Salvaic. We keep laws because they teach, help us become closer to G-d, because He said so and can discipline us, yet not for salvation. Salvation comes from the Cross, thus we are indeed free to keep His Law perfectly, in our hearts; even as we fall short because of our human condition.

My promise “His Grace is Sufficient”, was only for this Passover and Chag Hamotzo; Next year things will return to normal. So I admit, I was puzzled why did I face this year this “perfect storm”. Now I believe it was so I better understood His words about my niece and thus all homosexuals. If His Grace is sufficient, her redemption was never at risk because Laws, all laws are under Grace where the Redeemed fall short through no fault of their own, are covered.]

And if His Grace is sufficient as regards her and her partners love, then all of Romans 7.21-25 applies to them and their love. As you said: “If you love your niece, seek the L-rd’s help to deliver her.” We did last year when we found out, got that message that His Grace covers them and then when, like you, we did not understand that remark, faced that perfect storm just as Passover cleaning started: we learn the true meaning to: “My Grace is sufficient”.

Put another way no Law supersedes Grace even the Law of marriage being between man and woman:

“For all who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Curse be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no man is justified before G-d by the Law; for “righteousness shall live by faith,” but the Law does not rest on faith, for “he who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become that curse for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree”...” Gal.3.10-13

Shalom JS,
consider this !

Since we heard our Lord have said:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh,
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. -John 3:6

Likewise, we heard:
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, BORN OF WOMAN, BORN UNDER THE LAW, -Galatians 4:4
TO REDEEM THOSE WHO WERE UNDER THE LAW, so that we might receive adoption as sons. -Galatians 4:5

Does that mean everyone born of woman, born under the law ? Yes

Do they consider that law of Moses as the Law of the Jews? Yes.

Do everyone then born of the Law of Moses, that the law spoke to people through Levitical priesthood? No.

So then do our Lord only redeem those under the law under Levitical priesthood or the Law of Moses ? No. Why?

Didn’t apostle Paul write Galatians 4:4-5, this letter to the Galatians who were Gentiles? Yes.

So apostle Paul spoke of ANOTHER LAW that everyone were born of woman was born under this law, that the Lord REDEEM? Yes.

What is this law ?
This, we heard:
Therefore, just as SIN CAME INTO the world through one man, and DEATH THROUGH SIN, and so DEATH SPREAD TO all men because all sinned' -Romans 5:12

So we can consider that just as sin came into the world through one man, and everyone born of woman, born under THE LAW OF SIN, and death through sin, and so we consider those who sinned under THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

Now let us consider about those who were born NOT under the law of Moses ? This is what we have heard :

For all who have sinned without the law will also PERISH WITHOUT THE LAW, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. -Romans 2:12

So all who have sinned WITHOUT THE LAW OF MOSES will also PERISH WITHOUT THE LAW OF MOSES.

Since we know that the Lord not only redeem those under under Levitical priesthood or the Law of Moses ?

This is what we have heard:
For when there is A CHANGE in the PRIESTHOOD, there is NECESSARILY A CHANGE IN THE LAW as well. -Hebrews 7:12

What is the change ?
For it is witnessed of Him ( Christ), "You are a PRIEST FOREVER, after the order of Melchizedek." -Hebrews 7:17

So there is a change from Levitical priesthood named after the order of Aaron TO Christ as our priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

Why there is a change ?

Now IF PERFECTION had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? -Hebrews 7:11

Since Christ is our priest forever under His priesthood, Gentiles and Jews receive the NEW LAW.

And this is what we heard spoken of the NEW LAW.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. -Romans 8:1

For THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. -Romans 8:2

When we are union in Christ, the law of the Spirit of life set us free from the law of sin and death.

This is what we have heard:
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. -Romans 6:5

So what we consider:
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. -Romans 6:11

So we ALSO must consider ourselves DEAD TO THE LAW OF SIN, and alive to God IN CHRIST JESUS

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