Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Leaf473

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True it was a local synod in the Council of Laodecea that is a red-herring though as the Cannons are universal laws for the Church not regional that is why it is a Canon law in the Church.
These things often turn out to be more complicated than they looked at first.

But from what I found so far, local councils are not considered binding on the whole church.

"Plenary councils have a legislative function that does not apply to other national synods."
Plenary council - Wikipedia

I don't doubt that the council of laodicea produced things that are termed "Canons".
But Canon 29 from Laodicea is different from Canon 29 here
Code of Canon Law - Title III - General Decrees and Instructions (Cann. 29-34)

The council of laodicea also produced a Canon of the new testament. I'm pretty sure you don't accept it as authoritative.

So to bring it around to the thread topic,
Is there a church or group of Christians that you trust to pick out the scriptures for you?
If so, do they also have authority to expand on the Sabbath commandment as Jesus did?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The command is to remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy is a result of it.

Christ is holy, He keeps us holy. In Christ, the Sabbath is holy.

What is unholy? To reject the rest God has given you - in favor of the rest you want to give yourself.

Only Christ could fulfill the commandments perfectly.

Does that mean we try to break them? Of course not. What it does mean is we, because of repentance, turn to Him for guidance on how He wants us to keep them.

Since He kept them perfectly, and no one else ever has, I figure He is the one to have lead me.

The command is to remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy is a result of it.

I'm not sure what happened with you or why keeping God's Sabbath the way He asked would be painful, it's definitely been the opposite of my experience and many SDA's and other religions who have always kept God's Sabbath Holy.

I do think you are creating your own spin on God's 4th commandment and a lot of people do this or try to find a loophole so they don't have to obey His Sabbath commandment they way He asked, but you might consider what you are really saying is you want to do your own will and not God's. Personally, Sunday would be a more convenient day for me, but our God asked us to keep Holy His seventh day, so who am I to say my will is more important than His, especially on a day that He blessed and said is sacred. Genesis 2:2-3 Exodus 20:8-11

Here is the NIV version of God's 4th commandment, which means the same as the KJV and NKJV

Exodus 20: 8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

It's something we have to do, that’s why it is a commandment, God does not do that for us unless we ask for His help to OBEY HIM, by keeping His Sabbath Holy, but even then it’s still a choice we have to make each and every Sabbath.

It's not the hearers of God's Word, it is the doers. James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

We are told His Sabbath is a day of worship Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings

We do not have to guess how to keep the Sabbath, we are told how to. Jesus as His custom preached every Sabbath Luke 4:16 Sabbath is supposed to be a delight and we are to turn from doing our own pleasures on God's Holy Sabbath Isaiah 58:13. He gives us six days to do all our work, but only asked for one Sacred day He blessed and made Holy, His eternal Sabbath. Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 20:8-11

God told us keeping His Sabbath is a sign that we are His people and how we are sanctified Ezekiel 20:12, 20:20 and His Sabbath will never end for eternity Isaiah 66:23.

You do not have to accept this commandment, but I do not think its wise to twist it to suit our needs. I'm am saying this out of love and concern. I know the Sabbath "trips people up" but I really think that is all the "other spirit's" doing, who wants nothing more than to replace God with his teachings. He has deceived a lot of people which is written in scriptures, but God really wants everyone to choose His will and the Sabbath is God's will for each of us to keep Holy the way He asked. God bless.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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No, He taught the law to show us our sinfulness so we would recognize our need for the grace and mercy of God.
Actually He wanted us to do justly towards others and gave details. Do not murder wasn’t given so we would understand ourselves better but to prevent murder.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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So to bring it around to the thread topic,
Is there a church or group of Christians that you trust to pick out the scriptures for you?
If so, do they also have authority to expand on the Sabbath commandment as Jesus did?

You didn't ask me, but I thought I would answer this question for you with scripture, than maybe you can find what the answers is:

“It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail” (Luke 16:17).
“My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips” (Psalm 89:34).
“All His precepts [commandments] are sure. They stand fast forever and ever” (Psalm 111:7, 8).

Malachi 3:6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Mathew 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

Mathew 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23: And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Mathew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus said: John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelations 22:14 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

God bless
 
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Leaf473

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You didn't ask me, but I thought I would answer this question for you with scripture, than maybe you can find what the answers is:

“It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail” (Luke 16:17).
“My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips” (Psalm 89:34).
“All His precepts [commandments] are sure. They stand fast forever and ever” (Psalm 111:7, 8).

Malachi 3:6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Mathew 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

Mathew 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23: And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Mathew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus said: John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelations 22:14 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

God bless
Hi imge,
You (and everyone else) are always welcome to jump in!

Lots of great scripture references there, and believe me, I used to view the question of which books should be in the Bible the same way that you probably do.

Let's start with the first reference, the guarantee that not a single tittle will pass from the law. I asked myself, did that apply to the table of contents of the Bible I was using?

The answer might seem like an obvious yes, but it turns out different people use different bibles. Go back in history, and the tables of contents get very different.

Which one was the right one that no tittle would pass from? I could see no obvious answer.

*************
To put it a different way, I learned that there was a document called the teaching of the 12 apostles, or the Didache. Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

I ask myself, will not a single tittle pass from it? Again, I don't know for sure.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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These things often turn out to be more complicated than they looked at first.

But from what I found so far, local councils are not considered binding on the whole church.

"Plenary councils have a legislative function that does not apply to other national synods."
Plenary council - Wikipedia

I don't doubt that the council of laodicea produced things that are termed "Canons".
But Canon 29 from Laodicea is different from Canon 29 here
Code of Canon Law - Title III - General Decrees and Instructions (Cann. 29-34)

The council of laodicea also produced a Canon of the new testament. I'm pretty sure you don't accept it as authoritative.

So to bring it around to the thread topic,
Is there a church or group of Christians that you trust to pick out the scriptures for you?
If so, do they also have authority to expand on the Sabbath commandment as Jesus did?

This is not true. Canon law is binding on the whole Church as Church law. Your mixing up the different roles of the Councils of Church law (Plenary Councils or ecumenical councils or synods) and National Church Councils that respond to civil law outside of the Church and church law (Country or Government law).

"THE ROLE OF CANON LAW IN THE CATHOLIC TRADITION AND THE QUESTION OF CHURCH AND STATE"

WHAT IS CANNON LAW?

Canon law is most simply the rules and ordinances governing the Christian community. The word is not uniquely from the Christian tradition and has as its source the Greek κανών (Arabic: ;نوناق Hebrew: הנק ), which is simply a standard of measure. Regulations that we now recognize as early forms of canons quickly developed in the Church. Already by the second century, manuals of conduct began to emerge. One of the earliest of these, the Didache (ca. 100 CE) offers clear guidelines for liturgical practices and some basic elements of Church governance.2 Other disciplinary works followed, such as the Didascalia apostolorum (ca. 230 CE).Belgium: Brepols, 2009)." 3 A study of the early Christian text in fact demonstrates that in the period of the early Church, and more especially after Constantine legalized the Christian religion with the Edict of Milan in 313, the Christian communities found it necessary to organize themselves in a more formalized fashion. As the Church structures developed in their formality and as conflict emerged between Christians, the laws that governed them necessarily needed to advance. What was the relationship between a more preeminent ecclesiastical see and a neighbouring bishop? How were apostates, heretics, and schismatics to be reconciled with the Church of Christ? These and many other questions quickly led to the development of canons.

SOURCES OF CANON LAW

The most fundamental source for all of the Church’s law is that which is contained in Scripture, especially the New Testament. The New Testament provides numerous clear instructions for various aspects of Christian life. The Gospels provide instructions on topics such as baptism and the Eucharist (Matt 28:19; Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:23–25), marriage (Matt 19:3–10), the payment of clergy (Luke 10:7–12), the Church’s judicial authority (Matt 18:15–17), and relations with the state (Matt 22:17–22). Saint Paul’s writings offer even more guidelines for the Christian community, including: the payment of clergy (1 Tim 5:17), requirements for ordination (1 Tim 3:1–13), how to handle accusations against clergy (1 Tim 5:19), and how to relate with non-Christians (1 Tim 5:9–10). Many of these norms are later developed into legal language in future canonical collections. Canon law, in fact, can be understood in a sense to be simply applied theology.Law, Person, and Community (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2012), 47–77."

Canon law develops in a more formalized sense following the first three centuries of the Christian Church. Prior to the time of legalization, we cannot speak of much in terms of a Church-state relation, beyond the simple facts of persecution or non-persecution. After legalization, and especially as theological disputes emerged dividing the Church, the Roman emperors begin holding ecumenical councils (from the Greek οἰκουμένη γῆ, the inhabited world). These were councils where bishops from various local churches were present, understood as representing the entire Church. While the ecumenical councils were called in response to theological questions, the bishops present also used the opportunity to issue legislation addressing various issues facing the churches. While local councils often also issued canons, these ecumenical canons had a special authority because of the fact that they were issued by the οἰκουμένη and were thus seen as binding on all Christians. These ancient canons, called the Sacred Canons in the Christian East, form the common canonical foundation of the Church in both East and West.5 This canonical tradition was taken up into the civil law of the Roman Empire, where it was a normative part of civil law for centuries.

...............

PLENARY COUNCIL

In the Roman Catholic Church, a plenary council is any of various kinds of ecclesiastical synods, used when those summoned represent the whole number of bishops of some given territory. The word itself, derived from the Latin plenarium (complete or full), hence concilium plenarium, also concilium plenum.

Plenary councils [1] have a legislative function that does not apply to other national synods.

{Note the linked reference [1] in the post body. This is in reference to legislative function of National synods outside of the Church law in this case the example of Child abuse under civil law outside of the church}


The ecumenical councils or synods are called plenary councils by Augustine of Hippo,[2] as they form a complete representation of the entire Church. Thus also, in ecclesiastical documents, provincial councils are denominated plenary, because all the bishops of a certain ecclesiastical province were represented. Later usage has restricted the term plenary to those councils which are presided over by a delegate of the Apostolic See, who has received special power for that purpose, and which are attended by all the metropolitans and bishops of some commonwealth, empire, or kingdom, or by their duly accredited representatives. In this article, only those modern provincial councils where the ecclesiastical province covered a whole country or countries (for example, Baltimore for the United States of America or Sydney for Australasia up to the mid-nineteenth century) are discussed, since it is only those that had de facto plenary effect. Such plenary synods are frequently called national councils.

Plenary councils should be distinguished from:
  • plenary assemblies such as those for Canada, India or Poland[3] which are meetings of a number of bishops from some given territory but without the authorisation to be a council;
  • the Synod of Bishops in the Catholic Church being a meeting of Bishops in the whole church instituted in 1965; and
  • Diocesan Synods, meetings of church representatives convened by the Bishop within one diocese.
............

Historical review of Canon law included in the Church to today here (Encyclopedia)
Historical paper of Canon law here (more info)

Hope this is helpful
 
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GraceBro

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Actually He wanted us to do justly towards others and gave details. Do not murder wasn’t given so we would understand ourselves better but to prevent murder.
But, yet the Jews, whom the law was for, murdered people all the time (i.e. Stephen, Paul persecuting Christians, and giving false testimony to have Jesus crucified). Love is the fulfillment of the law (Romans 13:10) not obedience to it. When I am loving someone as Jesus is loving me, I won't be sinning against them, much less murdering them. Besides, Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell (Matthew 5:21-22)." Have you ever been angry with a brother or sister? Have you ever called anyone a fool? If so, you are subject to judgment and in danger of the fire of hell. Good luck.
 
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Nathan@work

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I'm not sure what happened with you or why keeping God's Sabbath the way He asked would be painful, it's definitely been the opposite of my experience and many SDA's and other religions who have always kept God's Sabbath Holy.

I do think you are creating your own spin on God's 4th commandment and a lot of people do this or try to find a loophole so they don't have to obey His Sabbath commandment they way He asked, but you might consider what you are really saying is you want to do your own will and not God's. Personally, Sunday would be a more convenient day for me, but our God asked us to keep Holy His seventh day, so who am I to say my will is more important than His, especially on a day that He blessed and said is sacred. Genesis 2:2-3 Exodus 20:8-11

Here is the NIV version of God's 4th commandment, which means the same as the KJV and NKJV

Exodus 20: 8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

It's something we have to do, that’s why it is a commandment, God does not do that for us unless we ask for His help to OBEY HIM, by keeping His Sabbath Holy, but even then it’s still a choice we have to make each and every Sabbath.

It's not the hearers of God's Word, it is the doers. James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

We are told His Sabbath is a day of worship Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings

We do not have to guess how to keep the Sabbath, we are told how to. Jesus as His custom preached every Sabbath Luke 4:16 Sabbath is supposed to be a delight and we are to turn from doing our own pleasures on God's Holy Sabbath Isaiah 58:13. He gives us six days to do all our work, but only asked for one Sacred day He blessed and made Holy, His eternal Sabbath. Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 20:8-11

God told us keeping His Sabbath is a sign that we are His people and how we are sanctified Ezekiel 20:12, 20:20 and His Sabbath will never end for eternity Isaiah 66:23.

You do not have to accept this commandment, but I do not think its wise to twist it to suit our needs. I'm am saying this out of love and concern. I know the Sabbath "trips people up" but I really think that is all the "other spirit's" doing, who wants nothing more than to replace God with his teachings. He has deceived a lot of people which is written in scriptures, but God really wants everyone to choose His will and the Sabbath is God's will for each of us to keep Holy the way He asked. God bless.
It wasn’t the Sabbath that was painful to keep. :) I like to rest and love to observe all the things that God has done. Whether Saturday or Sunday, matters not to me.

The painful part was Him tearing down the self righteous wall that I was building. When I was falling for the beliefs of the SDA I took my eyes off Him and put them onto the law. My Faith was no longer focused on Christ, it had been lured away and turned to focus on what others thought about the law.

Christ is our rest. Only those who rest in Him are keeping the Sabbath Holy. The ceremonial/religious aspects of what the Sabbath was intended for are fulfilled in Christ - not a day of the week.

Those who hold to the day instead of Him are putting themselves into bondage. That is regardless if it is Saturday or Sunday.

Only in Christ is the law kept perfect, only in Him is it Holy. Everything else done beyond that is mans twist on things. Gods will is that we rest in Christ.

If you want to rest in Christ on Saturday it’s fine. If you want to on Sunday it’s fine. If you want to on any other day of the week it’s fine. I just hope you will find your rest in Him.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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It wasn’t the Sabbath that was painful to keep. :) I like to rest and love to observe all the things that God has done. Whether Saturday or Sunday, matters not to me.

The painful part was Him tearing down the self righteous wall that I was building. When I was falling for the beliefs of the SDA I took my eyes off Him and put them onto the law. My Faith was no longer focused on Christ, it had been lured away and turned to focus on what others thought about the law.

Christ is our rest. Only those who rest in Him are keeping the Sabbath Holy. The ceremonial/religious aspects of what the Sabbath was intended for are fulfilled in Christ - not a day of the week.

Those who hold to the day instead of Him are putting themselves into bondage. That is regardless if it is Saturday or Sunday.

Only in Christ is the law kept perfect, only in Him is it Holy. Everything else done beyond that is mans twist on things. Gods will is that we rest in Christ.

If you want to rest in Christ on Saturday it’s fine. If you want to on Sunday it’s fine. If you want to on any other day of the week it’s fine. I just hope you will find your rest in Him.

Previous you stated it was the Sabbath that “tripped” you out, which is why I commented on it. Honestly, your experience with the SDA church as a non-member is a lot different than mine and I imagine the other 20 million members. I was raised in the church, went away for a long time and came back because it aligns closest to what the Bible teaches. The SDA church is very big on keeping our eyes on Jesus, so honestly i have no idea what you’re talking about, maybe a one-off church you went to. Obeying God’s laws is a big part of the Bible, so removing it or tweaking it to fit a lifestyle you are removing part of God. The SDA church does not preach on God’s commandments every week, at least the ones I have attended and my dad is a retired SDA pastor. I probably hear a sermon on the commandments maybe a couple times per year. My personal pastor is Doug Batchelor and he records and broadcasts all his sermons. A quick search on Amazingfacts.org under media you can clearly see what is being preached and all topics of the Bible including God’s commandments because according to God’s own Words and what Jesus taught obeying His commandments is part of our moral duty to God. There are plenty of churches who don’t teach on the commandments, I would say the majority, but they are doing their members a disservice, it is part of who God is His will and why there are so many scriptures dedicated to keeping the commandments. Does it make up the whole Bible, no of course not, just like the SDA church does not only focus on God’s commandments, but doing away with them, or tweaking it, like stating Christ is our rest when clearly that is not what the commandment states Exodus 20:8 is something Jesus is probably going to ask about when He comes.
 
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Leaf473

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This is not true. Canon law is binding on the whole Church as Church law. Your mixing up the different roles of the Councils of Church law (Plenary Councils or ecumenical councils or synods) and National Church Councils that respond to civil law outside of the Church and church law (Country or Government law).

"THE ROLE OF CANON LAW IN THE CATHOLIC TRADITION AND THE QUESTION OF CHURCH AND STATE"

WHAT IS CANNON LAW?

Canon law is most simply the rules and ordinances governing the Christian community. The word is not uniquely from the Christian tradition and has as its source the Greek κανών (Arabic: ;نوناق Hebrew: הנק ), which is simply a standard of measure. Regulations that we now recognize as early forms of canons quickly developed in the Church. Already by the second century, manuals of conduct began to emerge. One of the earliest of these, the Didache (ca. 100 CE) offers clear guidelines for liturgical practices and some basic elements of Church governance.2 Other disciplinary works followed, such as the Didascalia apostolorum (ca. 230 CE).Belgium: Brepols, 2009)." 3 A study of the early Christian text in fact demonstrates that in the period of the early Church, and more especially after Constantine legalized the Christian religion with the Edict of Milan in 313, the Christian communities found it necessary to organize themselves in a more formalized fashion. As the Church structures developed in their formality and as conflict emerged between Christians, the laws that governed them necessarily needed to advance. What was the relationship between a more preeminent ecclesiastical see and a neighbouring bishop? How were apostates, heretics, and schismatics to be reconciled with the Church of Christ? These and many other questions quickly led to the development of canons.

SOURCES OF CANON LAW

The most fundamental source for all of the Church’s law is that which is contained in Scripture, especially the New Testament. The New Testament provides numerous clear instructions for various aspects of Christian life. The Gospels provide instructions on topics such as baptism and the Eucharist (Matt 28:19; Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:23–25), marriage (Matt 19:3–10), the payment of clergy (Luke 10:7–12), the Church’s judicial authority (Matt 18:15–17), and relations with the state (Matt 22:17–22). Saint Paul’s writings offer even more guidelines for the Christian community, including: the payment of clergy (1 Tim 5:17), requirements for ordination (1 Tim 3:1–13), how to handle accusations against clergy (1 Tim 5:19), and how to relate with non-Christians (1 Tim 5:9–10). Many of these norms are later developed into legal language in future canonical collections. Canon law, in fact, can be understood in a sense to be simply applied theology.Law, Person, and Community (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2012), 47–77."

Canon law develops in a more formalized sense following the first three centuries of the Christian Church. Prior to the time of legalization, we cannot speak of much in terms of a Church-state relation, beyond the simple facts of persecution or non-persecution. After legalization, and especially as theological disputes emerged dividing the Church, the Roman emperors begin holding ecumenical councils (from the Greek οἰκουμένη γῆ, the inhabited world). These were councils where bishops from various local churches were present, understood as representing the entire Church. While the ecumenical councils were called in response to theological questions, the bishops present also used the opportunity to issue legislation addressing various issues facing the churches. While local councils often also issued canons, these ecumenical canons had a special authority because of the fact that they were issued by the οἰκουμένη and were thus seen as binding on all Christians. These ancient canons, called the Sacred Canons in the Christian East, form the common canonical foundation of the Church in both East and West.5 This canonical tradition was taken up into the civil law of the Roman Empire, where it was a normative part of civil law for centuries.

...............

PLENARY COUNCIL

In the Roman Catholic Church, a plenary council is any of various kinds of ecclesiastical synods, used when those summoned represent the whole number of bishops of some given territory. The word itself, derived from the Latin plenarium (complete or full), hence concilium plenarium, also concilium plenum.

Plenary councils [1] have a legislative function that does not apply to other national synods.

{Note the linked reference [1] in the post body. This is in reference to legislative function of National synods outside of the Church law in this case the example of Child abuse under civil law outside of the church}


The ecumenical councils or synods are called plenary councils by Augustine of Hippo,[2] as they form a complete representation of the entire Church. Thus also, in ecclesiastical documents, provincial councils are denominated plenary, because all the bishops of a certain ecclesiastical province were represented. Later usage has restricted the term plenary to those councils which are presided over by a delegate of the Apostolic See, who has received special power for that purpose, and which are attended by all the metropolitans and bishops of some commonwealth, empire, or kingdom, or by their duly accredited representatives. In this article, only those modern provincial councils where the ecclesiastical province covered a whole country or countries (for example, Baltimore for the United States of America or Sydney for Australasia up to the mid-nineteenth century) are discussed, since it is only those that had de facto plenary effect. Such plenary synods are frequently called national councils.

Plenary councils should be distinguished from:
  • plenary assemblies such as those for Canada, India or Poland[3] which are meetings of a number of bishops from some given territory but without the authorisation to be a council;
  • the Synod of Bishops in the Catholic Church being a meeting of Bishops in the whole church instituted in 1965; and
  • Diocesan Synods, meetings of church representatives convened by the Bishop within one diocese.
............

Hope this is helpful
Well, from the link you provided,

The Role of Canon Law in the Catholic Tradition and the Question of Church and State

"Canon law is most simply the rules and ordinances governing the Christian community."

So technically yes, things issued by the council at laodicea are considered Canon law.
However, it doesn't look like they were binding on the whole church. So I think it would be inaccurate to say that they are the canon law of the Catholic church.

"...the Roman emperors begin holding ecumenical councils (from the Greek οἰκουμένη γῆ, the inhabited world)."

Ecumenical, I think meaning either bishops from the known world of the time, or applying to the known world of the time, probably both.

"These were councils where bishops from various local churches were present, understood as representing the entire Church."

Right, an action of the entire church. The Catholic Church sees this as the same thing that happened in Acts, when the apostles and elders gathered in Jerusalem.

"While the ecumenical councils were called in response to theological questions, the bishops present also used the opportunity to issue legislation addressing various issues facing the churches. While local councils often also issued canons,"

Canons not binding on the entire church, it looks like to me.

"...these ecumenical canons had a special authority because of the fact that they were issued by the οἰκουμένη and were thus seen as binding on all Christians."

Binding on all Christians, for the entire church.

"These ancient canons, called the Sacred Canons in the Christian East, form the common canonical foundation of the Church in both East and West."

Is this the part that's leading you to believe that the canons from the council at laodicea are part of Canon law?
I don't think they were ever considered binding on the entire church. I don't think they are part of the canon law for the entire Catholic Church today.

***************
So, to tie this in with the thread topic,

Both councils at Laodicea and Carthage (397) made decisions about what documents would be considered scripture, though their decisions are different.

Do you follow one of those councils to determine which documents are scripture, or some other group, or something else entirely?

And if you follow one of those groups, do you also follow what they said about the Sabbath?
 
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Well, from the link you provided,

The Role of Canon Law in the Catholic Tradition and the Question of Church and State

"Canon law is most simply the rules and ordinances governing the Christian community."

So technically yes, things issued by the council at laodicea are considered Canon law.
However, it doesn't look like they were binding on the whole church. So I think it would be inaccurate to say that they are the canon law of the Catholic church.

"...the Roman emperors begin holding ecumenical councils (from the Greek οἰκουμένη γῆ, the inhabited world)."

Ecumenical, I think meaning either bishops from the known world of the time, or applying to the known world of the time, probably both.

"These were councils where bishops from various local churches were present, understood as representing the entire Church."

Right, an action of the entire church. The Catholic Church sees this as the same thing that happened in Acts, when the apostles and elders gathered in Jerusalem.

"While the ecumenical councils were called in response to theological questions, the bishops present also used the opportunity to issue legislation addressing various issues facing the churches. While local councils often also issued canons,"

Canons not binding on the entire church, it looks like to me.

"...these ecumenical canons had a special authority because of the fact that they were issued by the οἰκουμένη and were thus seen as binding on all Christians."

Binding on all Christians, for the entire church.

"These ancient canons, called the Sacred Canons in the Christian East, form the common canonical foundation of the Church in both East and West."

Is this the part that's leading you to believe that the canons from the council at laodicea are part of Canon law?
I don't think they were ever considered binding on the entire church. I don't think they are part of the canon law for the entire Catholic Church today.

***************
So, to tie this in with the thread topic,

Both councils at Laodicea and Carthage (397) made decisions about what documents would be considered scripture, though their decisions are different.

Do you follow one of those councils to determine which documents are scripture, or some other group, or something else entirely?

And if you follow one of those groups, do you also follow what they said about the Sabbath?

Sorry we disagree. Canons law is binding on the whole church as shown in the linked posts already. No point in repeating what has already been provided in the previous posts. It is all the Councils collectively that include the collective canons of the Church...

It is true that the Council of Laodicea was a local synod but that is not relevant as all the collective Canon laws are on the books of the Roman Catholic Church so the statement you made above is misleading as the Canons developed at this synod are included in the collective Canon laws that govern universal Church.

A.D. 363-364, the Catholic Church outlawed Sabbath keeping in the Council of Laodicea when they decreed 59 Canon laws. Canon XXIX:Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.” (Percival Translation).

This is an official Canon of the Catholic Church that is still on their books. The collective councils of the Roman Catholic Church after the schism and split with the Eastern Orthodox Church have collectively accumulated all the Canons regional or otherwise from the Roman Catholic Church. Though the Council of Laodicea was a regional synod the Canon laws are a part of the official collective canon laws of the Roman Catholic Church.

CANON LAW – CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA (Catholic Answers)

As the later law of the separated Eastern Churches did not influence the Western collections, we need not treat of it, but go on to consider only the Greek collection. It begins early in the fourth century: in the different provinces of Asia Minor, to the canons of local councils are added those of the ecumenical Council of Nicaea, (325), everywhere held in esteem. The Province of Pontus furnished the penitentiary decisions of Ancyra and Neocaesarea (314); Antioch, the canons of the famous Council “in encaeniis” (341), a genuine code of metropolitan organization; Paphlagonia, that of the Council of Gangra (343), a reaction against the first excesses of asceticism; Phrygia, the fifty-nine canons of Laodicea on different disciplinary and liturgical matters. This collection was so highly esteemed that at the Council of Chalcedon (451) the canons were read as one series. It was increased later by the addition of the canons of Constantinople (381), with other canons attributed to it, those of Ephesus (431), Chalcedon (451), and the Apostolic canons. In 692 the Council in Trullo passed 102 disciplinary canons, the second of which enumerates the elements of the official collection: they are the texts we have just mentioned, together with the canons of Sardica, and of Carthage (419), according to Dionysius Exiguus, and numerous canonical letters of the great bishops, SS. Dionysius of Alexandria, Gregory Thaumaturgus, Basil, etc. If to these be added the canons of the two ecumenical councils of Nicea (787) and Constantinople (869) we have all the elements of the definitive collection in its final shape. A few “systematic” collections may be mentioned as pertaining to this period: one containing fifty titles by an unknown author about 535; another with twenty-five titles of the ecclesiastical laws of Justinian; a collection of fifty titles drawn up about 550, by John the Scholastic, a priest of Antioch. The compilations known as the “Nomocanons” are more important, because they bring together the civil laws and the ecclesiastical laws on the same subjects; the two principal are the Nomocanon, wrongly attributed to John the Scholastic, but which dates from the end of the sixth century, with fifty titles; and another, drawn up in the seventh century, and afterwards augmented by the Patriarch Photius in 883.

B. The Canonical Collections in the West to Pseudo-Isidore.—In the West canonical collections developed as in the East, but about two centuries later. At first appear collections of national or local laws, and the tendency towards centralization is partially effected in the ninth century. Towards the end of the fourth century there is yet in the West no canonical collection, not even a local one, those of the fifth century are essentially local, but all of them borrow from the Greek councils. The latter were known in the West by two Latin versions, one called the “Hispana” or “Isidorian”, because it was inserted in the Spanish canonical collection, attributed to St. Isidore of Seville, the other called the “Itala” or “ancient” (Prisca), because Dionysius Exiguus, in the first half of the sixth century, found it in use at Rome, and being dissatisfied with its imperfections improved it. Almost all the Western collections, therefore, are based on the same texts as the Greek collection, hence the marked influence of that collection on Western canon law.

(I) At the end of the fifth century the Roman Church was completely organized and the popes had promulgated many legislative texts; but no collection of them had yet been made. The only extra-Roman canons recognized were the canons of Nicasa and Sardica, the latter being joined to the former, and at times even cited as the canons of Nicaea. The Latin version of the ancient Greek councils was known, but was not adopted as ecclesiastical law. Towards the year 500 Dionysius Exiguus compiled at Rome a double collection, one of the councils, the other of decretals, i.e. papal letters. The former, executed at the request of Stephen, Bishop of Salona, is a translation of the Greek councils, including Chalcedon, and begins with the fifty Apostolic canons; Dionysius adds to it only the Latin text of the canons of Sardica and of Carthage (419), in which the more ancient African councils are partially reproduced. The second is a collection of thirty-nine papal decretals, from Siricius (384) to Anastasius II (496-98). (See Collections of Ancient Canons.) Thus joined together these two collections became the canonical code of the Roman Church, not by official approbation, but by authorized practice. But while in the work of Dionysius the collection of conciliary canons remained unchanged, that of the decretals was successively increased; it continued to incorporate letters of the different popes till about the middle of the eighth century when Adrian I gave (774) the collection of Dionysius to the future Emperor Charlemagne as the canonical book of the Roman Church. This collection, often called the “Dionysio-Hadriana”, was soon officially received in all Frankish territory, where it was cited as the “Liber Canonum”, and was adopted for the whole empire of Charlemagne at the Diet of Aachen in 802. This was an important step towards the centralization and unification of the ecclesiastical law, especially as the Latin Catholic world hardly extended beyond the limits of the empire, Africa and the south of Spain having been lost to the Church through the victories of Islam.

Hope this helps.
 
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Valletta

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Hi :)

"They" are the Roman Catholic Church. They take full credit (or blame) for changing the corporate day of worship from the Biblical Sabbath to the first day of the week, which the majority of people now go to church on. After the RCC changed the corporate day of worship a lot of the other churches followed suit, which was one of the major factor at the Council of Trent- tradition of man or God's commandment.

I am not able tell it better than how it is explained here:

How The Sabbath Was Changed | Sabbath Truth

There is a lot of great information on the Sabbath history on this website and below are some interesting reads...

The Council of Trent | Sabbath Truth

1st Century | Sabbath Through the Centuries | Sabbath Truth

If you look up top you can see the different statement on the Sabbath throughout each century.

I agree with you, most people choose not to follow the Bible. They take parts they agree with and sort of "tune out" everything else. When you really submit yourself to God and are willing to give up your will and replace it with His will, that's when real changes can be made. I think a lot of people are really afraid to give up their lifestyle and think fully committing to God does that and it's true. For me, I was in a situation I put myself in by doing my will which caused me to break God's 4th commandment. Despite the success I had, I was miserable because the Holy Spirit was convicting my heart of my sin. I knew I made a mistake and decided to give my life over to God and I can't tell you how many miracles He worked so I could completely obey Him. It did change my whole life, but only for the better. God wants to bless us, He is a God of love and wants His children to be happy. We have to trust in Him that He knows what is best for us because He does, but what He asks for in return (our love, faith and obedience) is so small in comparison. God bless
Sunday became the day of worship for the Apostles and their followers. The Breaking of the Bread, the Mass, took place on the third day, starting with the Passion of our Lord and ending on the Sunday, the Day of the Resurrection. Remember a lot of the early Catholics, including the Apostles, were Jews. During that first century a number celebrated both the Mass on Sunday and the Sabbath on Saturday. This was centuries before Constantine. But the Bible tells us many of the old ways, including the Sabbath, are shadows of the new: Colossians 2:16-17: Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in regard to food or drink or in respect to festival, or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Sunday became the day of worship for the Apostles and their followers. The Breaking of the Bread, the Mass, took place on the third day, starting with the Passion of our Lord and ending on the Sunday, the Day of the Resurrection. Remember a lot of the early Catholics, including the Apostles, were Jews. During that first century a number celebrated both the Mass on Sunday and the Sabbath on Saturday. This was centuries before Constantine. But the Bible tells us many of the old ways, including the Sabbath, are shadows of the new: Colossians 2:16-17: Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in regard to food or drink or in respect to festival, or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
Hi Valletta,

There is no scripture in the entire Bible that tells us the seventh day is no longer God’s holy Sabbath and Sunday is the new day of worship. Jesus kept Sabbath Luke 4:16 and told us to as well. John 15:10

Colossians 2:16-17 if you read in its proper context is all about food and drink, the Yearly Sabbath(s) festivals, not the weekly Sabbath day God told us is a perpetual covenant. Exodus 31:16 which is why the seventh day will continue as His Sabbath eternally. Isaiah 66:23

Even the Catholic scholars agree the 4th commandment has not been abrogated and there is no biblical authority to change God’s Sabbath day from the seventh day to the first day. We have a moral duty to obey all of God’s commandments including the day God asked us to Remember and keep Holy. Exodus 20:8-11.
God bless
 
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Leaf473

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Sorry we disagree. Canons law is binding on the whole church as shown in the linked posts already. No point in repeating what has already been provided in the previous posts. It is all the Councils collectively that include the collective canons of the Church...

It is true that the Council of Laodicea was a local synod but that is not relevant as all the collective Canon laws are on the books of the Roman Catholic Church so the statement you made above is misleading as the Canons developed at this synod are included in the collective Canon laws that govern universal Church.

A.D. 363-364, the Catholic Church outlawed Sabbath keeping in the Council of Laodicea when they decreed 59 Canon laws. Canon XXIX:Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.” (Percival Translation).

This is an official Canon of the Catholic Church that is still on their books. The collective councils of the Roman Catholic Church after the schism and split with the Eastern Orthodox Church have collectively accumulated all the Canons regional or otherwise from the Roman Catholic Church. Though the Council of Laodicea was a regional synod the Canon laws are a part of the official collective canon laws of the Roman Catholic Church.

CANON LAW – CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA (Catholic Answers)

As the later law of the separated Eastern Churches did not influence the Western collections, we need not treat of it, but go on to consider only the Greek collection. It begins early in the fourth century: in the different provinces of Asia Minor, to the canons of local councils are added those of the ecumenical Council of Nicaea, (325), everywhere held in esteem. The Province of Pontus furnished the penitentiary decisions of Ancyra and Neocaesarea (314); Antioch, the canons of the famous Council “in encaeniis” (341), a genuine code of metropolitan organization; Paphlagonia, that of the Council of Gangra (343), a reaction against the first excesses of asceticism; Phrygia, the fifty-nine canons of Laodicea on different disciplinary and liturgical matters. This collection was so highly esteemed that at the Council of Chalcedon (451) the canons were read as one series. It was increased later by the addition of the canons of Constantinople (381), with other canons attributed to it, those of Ephesus (431), Chalcedon (451), and the Apostolic canons. In 692 the Council in Trullo passed 102 disciplinary canons, the second of which enumerates the elements of the official collection: they are the texts we have just mentioned, together with the canons of Sardica, and of Carthage (419), according to Dionysius Exiguus, and numerous canonical letters of the great bishops, SS. Dionysius of Alexandria, Gregory Thaumaturgus, Basil, etc. If to these be added the canons of the two ecumenical councils of Nicea (787) and Constantinople (869) we have all the elements of the definitive collection in its final shape. A few “systematic” collections may be mentioned as pertaining to this period: one containing fifty titles by an unknown author about 535; another with twenty-five titles of the ecclesiastical laws of Justinian; a collection of fifty titles drawn up about 550, by John the Scholastic, a priest of Antioch. The compilations known as the “Nomocanons” are more important, because they bring together the civil laws and the ecclesiastical laws on the same subjects; the two principal are the Nomocanon, wrongly attributed to John the Scholastic, but which dates from the end of the sixth century, with fifty titles; and another, drawn up in the seventh century, and afterwards augmented by the Patriarch Photius in 883.

B. The Canonical Collections in the West to Pseudo-Isidore.—In the West canonical collections developed as in the East, but about two centuries later. At first appear collections of national or local laws, and the tendency towards centralization is partially effected in the ninth century. Towards the end of the fourth century there is yet in the West no canonical collection, not even a local one, those of the fifth century are essentially local, but all of them borrow from the Greek councils. The latter were known in the West by two Latin versions, one called the “Hispana” or “Isidorian”, because it was inserted in the Spanish canonical collection, attributed to St. Isidore of Seville, the other called the “Itala” or “ancient” (Prisca), because Dionysius Exiguus, in the first half of the sixth century, found it in use at Rome, and being dissatisfied with its imperfections improved it. Almost all the Western collections, therefore, are based on the same texts as the Greek collection, hence the marked influence of that collection on Western canon law.

(I) At the end of the fifth century the Roman Church was completely organized and the popes had promulgated many legislative texts; but no collection of them had yet been made. The only extra-Roman canons recognized were the canons of Nicasa and Sardica, the latter being joined to the former, and at times even cited as the canons of Nicaea. The Latin version of the ancient Greek councils was known, but was not adopted as ecclesiastical law. Towards the year 500 Dionysius Exiguus compiled at Rome a double collection, one of the councils, the other of decretals, i.e. papal letters. The former, executed at the request of Stephen, Bishop of Salona, is a translation of the Greek councils, including Chalcedon, and begins with the fifty Apostolic canons; Dionysius adds to it only the Latin text of the canons of Sardica and of Carthage (419), in which the more ancient African councils are partially reproduced. The second is a collection of thirty-nine papal decretals, from Siricius (384) to Anastasius II (496-98). (See Collections of Ancient Canons.) Thus joined together these two collections became the canonical code of the Roman Church, not by official approbation, but by authorized practice. But while in the work of Dionysius the collection of conciliary canons remained unchanged, that of the decretals was successively increased; it continued to incorporate letters of the different popes till about the middle of the eighth century when Adrian I gave (774) the collection of Dionysius to the future Emperor Charlemagne as the canonical book of the Roman Church. This collection, often called the “Dionysio-Hadriana”, was soon officially received in all Frankish territory, where it was cited as the “Liber Canonum”, and was adopted for the whole empire of Charlemagne at the Diet of Aachen in 802. This was an important step towards the centralization and unification of the ecclesiastical law, especially as the Latin Catholic world hardly extended beyond the limits of the empire, Africa and the south of Spain having been lost to the Church through the victories of Islam.

Hope this helps.
From your post 1726
Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Under the heading
PLENARY COUNCIL
"In the Roman Catholic Church, a plenary council is any of various kinds of ecclesiastical synods, used when those summoned represent the whole number of bishops of some given territory. The word itself, derived from the Latin plenarium (complete or full), hence concilium plenarium, also concilium plenum.

Plenary councils [1] have a legislative function that does not apply to other national synods."

If they don't "apply to other national synods" I'm pretty sure that means not binding on the whole church.

I agree that what was decided at Laodicea is still "on the books" in the sense that there is a record of it. Both Laodicea and Carthage made statements about which documents were to be considered scripture. But they are different lists, so they can't both be binding on the whole church.

Which list is binding on the Catholic Church today? Neither, the much later ecumenical council of Trent decided that.

Are you interested in talking about the list of books in the Bible that you like to use? If so, is it the same list as one of those three councils?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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From your post 1726
Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Under the heading
PLENARY COUNCIL
"In the Roman Catholic Church, a plenary council is any of various kinds of ecclesiastical synods, used when those summoned represent the whole number of bishops of some given territory. The word itself, derived from the Latin plenarium (complete or full), hence concilium plenarium, also concilium plenum.

Plenary councils [1] have a legislative function that does not apply to other national synods."

If they don't "apply to other national synods" I'm pretty sure that means not binding on the whole church.

I agree that what was decided at Laodicea is still "on the books" in the sense that there is a record of it. Both Laodicea and Carthage made statements about which documents were to be considered scripture. But they are different lists, so they can't both be binding on the whole church.

Which list is binding on the Catholic Church today? Neither, the much later ecumenical council of Trent decided that.

Are you interested in talking about the list of books in the Bible that you like to use? If so, is it the same list as one of those three councils?

Please read the Catholic source on CANON LAW in the post you are quoting from.

"As the later law of the separated Eastern Churches did not influence the Western collections, we need not treat of it, but go on to consider only the Greek collection. It begins early in the fourth century: in the different provinces of Asia Minor, to the canons of local councils are added those of the ecumenical Council of Nicaea, (325), everywhere held in esteem. The Province of Pontus furnished the penitentiary decisions of Ancyra and Neocaesarea (314); Antioch, the canons of the famous Council “in encaeniis” (341), a genuine code of metropolitan organization; Paphlagonia, that of the Council of Gangra (343), a reaction against the first excesses of asceticism; Phrygia, the fifty-nine canons of Laodicea on different disciplinary and liturgical matters. This collection was so highly esteemed that at the Council of Chalcedon (451) the canons were read as one series."

The rest of the post deals with how the Canon laws expanded within the Church
 
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Leaf473

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Please read the Catholic source on CANON LAW in the post you are quoting from.

"As the later law of the separated Eastern Churches did not influence the Western collections, we need not treat of it, but go on to consider only the Greek collection. It begins early in the fourth century: in the different provinces of Asia Minor, to the canons of local councils are added those of the ecumenical Council of Nicaea, (325), everywhere held in esteem. The Province of Pontus furnished the penitentiary decisions of Ancyra and Neocaesarea (314); Antioch, the canons of the famous Council “in encaeniis” (341), a genuine code of metropolitan organization; Paphlagonia, that of the Council of Gangra (343), a reaction against the first excesses of asceticism; Phrygia, the fifty-nine canons of Laodicea on different disciplinary and liturgical matters. This collection was so highly esteemed that at the Council of Chalcedon (451) the canons were read as one series."

The rest of the post deals with how the Canon laws expanded within the Church
Well, if the council at Chalcedon was an ecumenical council, then the things that it agreed on would be Canon law, yes.

So, do you look to the list of books decided on at Laodicea as scripture and none others?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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But, yet the Jews, whom the law was for, murdered people all the time (i.e. Stephen, Paul persecuting Christians, and giving false testimony to have Jesus crucified). Love is the fulfillment of the law (Romans 13:10) not obedience to it. When I am loving someone as Jesus is loving me, I won't be sinning against them, much less murdering them. Besides, Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell (Matthew 5:21-22)." Have you ever been angry with a brother or sister? Have you ever called anyone a fool? If so, you are subject to judgment and in danger of the fire of hell. Good luck.
So is it your contention that Christians have never murdered people? By the way, not all Jews murdered people. You do them an injustice to say they did.

Your final sentences are not reflective of loving someone as Jesus love you. Does Jesus give you warnings and close with a cynical “good luck” for example?
 
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Nathan@work

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Previous you stated it was the Sabbath that “tripped” you out, which is why I commented on it. Honestly, your experience with the SDA church as a non-member is a lot different than mine and I imagine the other 20 million members. I was raised in the church, went away for a long time and came back because it aligns closest to what the Bible teaches. The SDA church is very big on keeping our eyes on Jesus, so honestly i have no idea what you’re talking about, maybe a one-off church you went to. Obeying God’s laws is a big part of the Bible, so removing it or tweaking it to fit a lifestyle you are removing part of God. The SDA church does not preach on God’s commandments every week, at least the ones I have attended and my dad is a retired SDA pastor. I probably hear a sermon on the commandments maybe a couple times per year. My personal pastor is Doug Batchelor and he records and broadcasts all his sermons. A quick search on Amazingfacts.org under media you can clearly see what is being preached and all topics of the Bible including God’s commandments because according to God’s own Words and what Jesus taught obeying His commandments is part of our moral duty to God. There are plenty of churches who don’t teach on the commandments, I would say the majority, but they are doing their members a disservice, it is part of who God is His will and why there are so many scriptures dedicated to keeping the commandments. Does it make up the whole Bible, no of course not, just like the SDA church does not only focus on God’s commandments, but doing away with them, or tweaking it, like stating Christ is our rest when clearly that is not what the commandment states Exodus 20:8 is something Jesus is probably going to ask about when He comes.

I do think that the SDA teaches quite a few things that are in line with the truth. I agree with them on many points. But for me, it is only the full truth that I can get behind, and cannot keep quiet about falsehoods that pretend to be the truth.

I know many SDA churches do not teach on the commandments every week, just as you are not going to find that all SBC churches will preach on OSAS every week, or that there are some Catholic churches that don't mention praying to the Virgin Mary every week.

Every denomination has its thing it is known for, regardless if they teach on it every week.

I am not trying to single out the SDA in particular, it is just that they were the catalyst behind some major changes in my Faith. There have been multiple denominational teachings that made me truly come to know the difference between a half-truth and a full truth. Baptists and Pentecostal being the major two.

It is just that after the incident with the SDA teachings on the Sabbath, my Faith took a huge leap forward. Kinda like I had gone from drinking milk in my early years, then some more solid baby food, then up to some mac and cheese - then wham - after that occasion I was chewing on some beef jerky.

What the SDA does with the Sabbath is leave behind the true meaning of it. They focus on the flesh, and not the Spirit. I think most of them are deceived really, just like many other denominations. They do what they do in ignorance.

That is what I have been trying to show you in this thread. Jesus is the Covenant that God made with the Nation of Israel at Horeb. Jesus is the Tablets. Jesus is the Staff that budded. Jesus is the Manna. Everything about the Covenant God made was 'kept' safe and perfect inside the Ark - and it was by the Ark that God would meet with His chosen people.

This is why the Sabbath was so crucial back then, and to us now. It was to point toward Christ and our rest in Him. The Sabbath is not about a day of the week - it is about the Son of God. His sheep, the church, have their sign/seal of His Spirit because of their rest in Christ - no one else has this.

Many denominations, not just the SDA, look at the Bible and want to interpret it in a way to best suit their denominational viewpoint - to make them stand out above the rest. It is nothing new, the RCC has done it since just after Christ left so it makes sense that all her offspring does it as well.

The point is, the Bible contains truth, but you have to have the knowledge of God in order to understand it. That knowledge only comes from the Spirit of God living inside you - you do not have that ability in and of yourself. That is the perpetual lie that has been told from the beginning.

Paul describes some things as 'mysteries'. They were true, real things back when they were written - but they were to point toward something else that only the Spirit can reveal.

The commandments of God are kept by those who walk according to the Spirit because they are the only ones who keep Christ center focus. Every one else who thinks they 'obey' the commandments are just fooling themselves outside of Christ. It makes them feel better about looking and converting those who do not 'do' as they do. It makes them feel better about themselves to have someone else to judge as doing something wrong.

That is not true life in Christ. I hope one day you will see this.
 
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Leaf473

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Hi @LoveGodsWord,

Did you want to talk about the issue of

If we reject what the councils say about the Sabbath,
should we accept what they say about the Scriptures?

If you don't want to talk about it, that's fine. I'll just say bye for now and
Peace be with you!
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I do think that the SDA teaches quite a few things that are in line with the truth. I agree with them on many points. But for me, it is only the full truth that I can get behind, and cannot keep quiet about falsehoods that pretend to be the truth.

I know many SDA churches do not teach on the commandments every week, just as you are not going to find that all SBC churches will preach on OSAS every week, or that there are some Catholic churches that don't mention praying to the Virgin Mary every week.

Every denomination has its thing it is known for, regardless if they teach on it every week.

I am not trying to single out the SDA in particular, it is just that they were the catalyst behind some major changes in my Faith. There have been multiple denominational teachings that made me truly come to know the difference between a half-truth and a full truth. Baptists and Pentecostal being the major two.

It is just that after the incident with the SDA teachings on the Sabbath, my Faith took a huge leap forward. Kinda like I had gone from drinking milk in my early years, then some more solid baby food, then up to some mac and cheese - then wham - after that occasion I was chewing on some beef jerky.

What the SDA does with the Sabbath is leave behind the true meaning of it. They focus on the flesh, and not the Spirit. I think most of them are deceived really, just like many other denominations. They do what they do in ignorance.

That is what I have been trying to show you in this thread. Jesus is the Covenant that God made with the Nation of Israel at Horeb. Jesus is the Tablets. Jesus is the Staff that budded. Jesus is the Manna. Everything about the Covenant God made was 'kept' safe and perfect inside the Ark - and it was by the Ark that God would meet with His chosen people.

This is why the Sabbath was so crucial back then, and to us now. It was to point toward Christ and our rest in Him. The Sabbath is not about a day of the week - it is about the Son of God. His sheep, the church, have their sign/seal of His Spirit because of their rest in Christ - no one else has this.

Many denominations, not just the SDA, look at the Bible and want to interpret it in a way to best suit their denominational viewpoint - to make them stand out above the rest. It is nothing new, the RCC has done it since just after Christ left so it makes sense that all her offspring does it as well.

The point is, the Bible contains truth, but you have to have the knowledge of God in order to understand it. That knowledge only comes from the Spirit of God living inside you - you do not have that ability in and of yourself. That is the perpetual lie that has been told from the beginning.

Paul describes some things as 'mysteries'. They were true, real things back when they were written - but they were to point toward something else that only the Spirit can reveal.

The commandments of God are kept by those who walk according to the Spirit because they are the only ones who keep Christ center focus. Every one else who thinks they 'obey' the commandments are just fooling themselves outside of Christ. It makes them feel better about looking and converting those who do not 'do' as they do. It makes them feel better about themselves to have someone else to judge as doing something wrong.

That is not true life in Christ. I hope one day you will see this.

I'm sorry I don't understand your post. The SDA did not invent the Sabbath, it is a commandment that our God spoke and wrote. If you do not see value in that, nothing I say is going to make any difference. The commandemnt says to keep His seventh day Holy. This is not an SDA thing, it is a commandment from our Savior. I would imagine it hurts Him deeply to see people worshiping Him on a day that is a commandment of the Roman Catholic church and not the commandment He gave us and said is eternal, the true Lord's day, the seventh day Sabbath. The seventh day is His Sabbath day and He commanded us to keep it holy. Genesis 2:1-3 Exodus 20:8-11. When we obey we are showing Him that He is our God, not something changed by man, Jesus even warned us about this. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mathew 15:9

I want to comment on what you said about losing the Spirit of Christ when keeping the Sabbath. Honestly, this makes no sense. As a Sabbath keeper, on God's Sabbath, I am not focused on all the things I should not be doing. My only focus is on God and having communion with Him on His holy Sabbath. This includes going to church, prayer, studying His Word by myself, sometimes Bible studies with fellow Sabbath keepers, listening to hymns and signing, sharing His Word with others, going on nature walks and admiring all that He has created for us. By keeping His Sabbath holy I am not losing the spirit of Christ, in fact it is the opposite. What I am hearing is a lot of twists and turns to make the Sabbath commandment fit a lifestyle instead of submitting to God's will by keeping His commandment which very clearly says “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Exodus 20:8

God bless
 
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