Paul did not teach Perpetual Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

MMXX said:

So to summarize:
You believe a single unconfessed sinful thought will send a born again Christian to fiery hell. And you believe you have a special anointing of discernment most Christians lack which enables you to come to your conclusions. And you believe that only you and handful of others with your special anointing will get through the narrow gate.

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So to summarize: Many in the Belief Alone camp do not believe the Bible when it talks about if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins according to 1 John 1:9. The Belief Alone proponent does not believe you have to continue to confess of sins to be forgiven of sin in light of 1 John 2:2 (Which is the context that talks about being told to “sin not” but if we do we have an advocate named Jesus Christ). Some believe 1 John 1:9 is dealing with coming to the faith for the first time when there is no indication that this is so. Many today also don't believe Acts of the Apostles 8:22 whereby Peter told Simon to repent and pray to God that he would be forgiven of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Even in Psalms 51, we learn about how king David desired to seek forgiveness with God over his sins. In Luke 15 in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, we learn that the prodigal son sought forgiveness with his father and believed this would be a remedy to restore his relationship back with his father. Such verses are simply ignored and they declare that I am misinterpreting these verses but they really don't show how I am doing that. They just claim their sin and still be saved type belief is correct without any actual biblical evidence proving they are correct. Sure, they take certain verses out of context to prove they can sin and still be saved, but we cannot just cherry pick the Bible in the way that we prefer. We must read and believe the whole counsel of God's Word and read the context instead of inserting a belief that we want to be true because it is more comforting to us.

MMXX said:

That's a non sequitur. You're describing someone who never became a born again believer. Also being sorry about being a sinner, isn't the same as formally confessing each occurring sin down to the last thought.

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Again, things are not as we wish them to be. As much as you fight against the truth of 1 John 1:9, Acts of the Apostles 8:22, Psalms 51, and Proverbs 28:13, you are never going to see it. You need to prove that 1 John 1:9 and Acts of the Apostles 8:22 is not a case whereby we need to confess of sin in order to be forgiven of sin.

You said:

"Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." Romans 8:26

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The Spirit is only given to those who obey Him (See: Acts of the Apostles 5:32).
Psalms 66:18 says, “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:”
Belief Alone-ism makes room for a sin and still be saved type belief.
So if one regards iniquity in their heart, the Lord will not hear them.
So if they are seeking forgiveness but yet they are just playing with sin and they claim that they will just sin again and they cannot help it, they are holding iniquity in their heart.

You said:

The Holy Spirit is our confessor. The Holy Spirit is our advocate. This applies to born again believers who stumble and struggle with sin. It does not apply to the unbeliever you described above.

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You are assuming too much in Romans 8:26. Nowhere does it say that these weakness involves a person justifying the idea that we can sin and still be saved. The whole idea in 2 Corinthians 7:1 pops the bubble of this kind of belief every time. You must ignore that Paul says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. In Belief Alone-ism: There is no perfecting holiness in the fear of God. In Belief Alone-ism: There is no command that tells us to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit.

For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do." Romans 7:15

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Paul is referring to his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian.

This must be the interpretive view because a chapter previously Paul asks the question, ‘shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound?” His answer was “God forbid.” (Romans 6:1-2). The chapter after also says that there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1). Paul also says in chapter 8 that this law is called the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2). Keeping this Law (New Covenant Law) makes us free from the Law of Sin and Death (See Romans 8:2). What is the “Law of Sin and Death”? It's the Law of Moses. This is the context of Romans 7:15. Romans 7:1 says this,

“Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?” (Romans 7:1).

This cannot be the laws of Jesus and His followers because such commands were still being formed with New Testament canon of Scripture. The Law at that time that ended at the cross was the 613 Laws of Moses. The Pharisees desired to keep the Law of Moses as a means of salvation with little to no grace. The Pharisees especially did not accept Jesus as their Messiah. So this has to be the understanding of how we read the whole chapter.

You said:

This describes a born again believer who struggles with sin and disobedience.

"O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Romans 7:24

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Not at all. Paul is referring to his old life as a Pharisee in verses 21-24, and then in verse 25 he transitions to his life of when he became a Christian. Again Paul says in Romans 8:2 that keeping the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus makes him free from the Law of Sin and Death. This Law is not a sin and still be saved belief because the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is defined for us in Romans 8:1 that says there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh (sin), but who walk after the Spirit. The Spirit convicts a person of sin (John 16:8-9). So there is no room for a sin and still be saved type of belief to take place in the life of a believer.

klutedavid said:

Why do you apply an interpretation to the scripture?

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

An interpretation of this paragraph is impossible because the plain reading of the paragraph, is clear and concise.

Only those who do the will of the Father will enter heaven.

So does the scripture clearly tell us what the will of the Father is?

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

There is no debate, the will of the Father is clearly stated.

In the paragraph (Matthew 7:21-23) Jesus tells us in no uncertain terms what is the cause of lawlessness.

‘I never knew you; depart from Me'

Even though the works were identical to the works that the apostles performed. These works could not conceal, the fact, that these folk, even though they used the very name of Jesus. They simply did not believe in Jesus, Jesus never knew them.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

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God associates with those who do righteousness (1 John 3:10).

Ezekiel 3:20 says,
“Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.”

So when a believer (righteous man) does turn from living righteously and he commits sin or iniquity, all his previous righteous deeds will not be remembered. So it will be as if this person does not even exist in God's memory anymore because there are no more righteous deeds to remember seeing God associates with the righteous.

Also, when you read Matthew 7:23, you also have to read Matthew 7:26-27.

Jesus made a point in how that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. So Jesus' point in Matthew 7:23 is that those who did wonderful works in his name did not make it because they also worked iniquity or sin. These believers did not know Jesus because they did not keep His commandments.

For 1 John 2:3 says, “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4 says,
“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

klutedavid said:

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

‘I never knew you; depart from Me'

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

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In John 3:36 we see that the word “believe”, and “obey” are interchangeable.

John 3:36 in the NASB says,
“The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Yes, in the KJB says the words “believeth not” in John 3:36, but the Greek word, “apeitheō” (ἀπειθέω) is used in other places in Scripture for the English word “disobedient” four times (Romans 10:21) (1 Peter 2:7) (1 Peter 2:8) (1 Peter 3:20), and for the English words “obey not” two times (1 Peter 3:1) (1 Peter 4:17) in the KJB (King James Bible).

One key verse here that should be mentioned above here is 1 Peter 2:8.


So there are those who stumble at the Word of God and they are disobedient (i.e. they are disobedient in hearing the Holy Bible). James says: “But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (James 1:22). Works is a form of obeying the Word of God (the Bible). We know that by works faith is made perfect according to James 2:22.

“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works,
and by works was faith made perfect? ”
(James 2:22).

So faith and works are connected. It's why faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).
It's why Jesus said, “And why call ye me, 'Lord, Lord', and do not the things which I say?”
Jesus said: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).
What is the will of the Father or the will of God?

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:” (1 Thessalonians 4:3) (KJB).

“God’s will is for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin.” (1 Thessalonians 4:3) (NLT).

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

So we must obey. For this is a part of the faith. For Paul talks about the obedience of the faith in Romans 1:5, and Romans 16:26. For Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him (See: Hebrews 5:9).

MMXX said:

I've already addressed those and other verses you've posted. And others have addressed those and other verses you've posted. But you have made it clear that you have your own special anointing in how to interpret scripture that most other Christians don't have. Therefore it seems clear you'll mostly be in disagreement with most Christians no matter what they say and what verses they use.

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Sorry, you did not really explain away 1 John 2:1 being the context of 1 John 1:9 (Which proves that it is talking about “Continued Salvation” and it is not talking about “Initial Salvation”). For John tells us to “sin not” and then he says if you happen to do so, we have an advocate named Jesus Christ that you can go to. This plays off of 1 John 1:9.

In fact, the truth in 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 2:1 also lines up with Hebrews 4:14-16 that says,


Clearly here we do not see this is referring to a new believer coming to the faith for the first time, but it is talking about a person who is already a believer and they are told to boldly come to throne of grace and obtain mercy in time of need. But I suppose you can latch on to the other false excuse used by Belief Alone Proponents that attempts to explain away 1 John 1:9 that says that it is dealing with sins that are a loss of fellowship only (while one is still saved). But this excuse does not work either. For 1 John 1:7 lets us know in context that it is referring to salvation.

You also did not explain Acts of the Apostles 8:22 in how Peter telling Simon the sorcerer to pray to GOD so that he may be forgiven for his one time sin of trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. This was not a general confession of sins or admittance that he was a sinner to gain entrance into God's kingdom. Simon needed to pray to GOD in the hope that he would be forgiven for the horrible thing he did. This proves that seeking forgiveness with GOD is tied to salvation. Peter did not say...


Peter did not say,


Peter did not say such horrible words.

MMXX said:

I've already addressed those and other verses you've posted. And others have addressed those and other verses you've posted. But you have made it clear that you have your own special anointing in how to interpret scripture that most other Christians don't have. Therefore it seems clear you'll mostly be in disagreement with most Christians no matter what they say and what verses they use.

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You basically said before that Proverbs 28:13, and Psalms 51 are Old Covenant, but even Paul said that the even the Law is good if it is used lawfully. The truth of confessing sin to be forgiven in Proverbs 28:13, and Psalms 51 are not exclusively a part of the Old Law. They are eternal truths that we can see repeated into the New Testament (or New Covenant). You have to show that this truth has ended in the New Testament by quoting the appropriate verses or passages. But I know you cannot do that because no such Scripture exists to do that. You are just making bold clams or assertions upon the words of God's Holy Word without any real biblical evidence to support your conclusion.

MMXX said:

I've already addressed those and other verses you've posted. And others have addressed those and other verses you've posted. But you have made it clear that you have your own special anointing in how to interpret scripture that most other Christians don't have. Therefore it seems clear you'll mostly be in disagreement with most Christians no matter what they say and what verses they use.

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Also, in order for the “Initial Salvation View” to work in 1 John 1:9, this verse would have to be worded in such a way that refers to a general call of seeking forgiveness with God and it would not be written in such a way that sounds like we have to confess of individual sins as they may happen on rare occasion if we stumble.

1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.

How can you confess of all your sins when coming to the Lord Jesus Christ for the first time?
They would be too numerous to confess.

So 1 John 1:9 is dealing with our continued walk with God. We have to confess of sins to be forgiven of them when they happen. This is what John is saying, especially in light of reading 1 John 2:1 (Which is the context).

In addition, confessing sins helps us to be cleansed of all unrighteousness, too. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins.... he is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So by continuing to confess any sin, and we are truly sorry about that sin and we no longer want to do it anymore, the Lord will help us to cleanse us from such unrighteousness. In fact, the reason Christ gave Himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and that we should be zealous of good works (See: Titus 2:14). We are not doing good works if we are also doing evil works.

klutedavid said:

Hebrews 7:18
For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness.

Hebrews 7:12
For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

Romans 8:3
For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did.

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In regards to Hebrews 7:18: This is saying we are not under the 613 Laws of Moses. The blood of bulls could not take away sin, but they only pointed ahead to the greater sacrifice (Which is Jesus Christ) (See: Hebrews 10:4).

In regards to Hebrews 7:12: The Laws of God have changed in that we follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers. It does not say there are no more laws of God we have to worry about breaking because we have a belief alone on Jesus. Many of the ceremonial laws in the Old Law were not really beneficial in the sense of loving your neighbor but they were merely types or shadows that pointed to the greater reality (i.e. Jesus Christ).

In regards to your partial quote of Romans 8:3:

Romans 8:2-4 says,
“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

The Old Law was weak through the flesh, but we are made free from the Old Law by keeping the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (See: Romans 8:2). What is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus? It is Romans 8:1 that says there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh (sin) but who walk after the Spirit. How do we get in Christ Jesus so as to obey this New Covenant Law in Romans 8:2? We receive Jesus by calling upon the name of the Lord (Romans 10:13), and we believe the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Jesus condemned sin in the flesh (He wiped our past slate of sin clean and He canceled out our obligation to keeping the Old Covenant Law, too) so that we might fulfill the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (to love your neighbor - See: Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (sin). This does not mean we can sin and still be saved. Romans 8:13 says if we live after the flesh (sin), we will die (die spiritually), but if we put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, we will live (live eternally).

MMXX said:

Seems to me that's basically what you tell most everyone.

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People can read this thread and see the kind of defense you made for themselves. In my opinion, you offered no real good case biblically to prove that you are correct in any way, and you did not address the context of the verses that demolishes your belief.

klutedavid said:

This seems contradictory.

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How so?

You said:

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say, 'ceremonial laws'. I have never seen that in the scripture.

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We do not have to be hit over the head with a baseball bat to figure out what certain things are in God's Word. Not everything in God's Word has to have a specific official label attached by God's Word itself in order to categorize certain things based on the truth within the Word.

For example: In Theology, terms are given to describe the different processes of what a believer goes through like: Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification.

Anyways, the Old Law can be broken up into three major categories based on the kind of law types that they are.

1. Moral Laws.
2. Ceremonial Laws.
3. Civil Laws (Which can include Judicial Laws).

We have to ask ourselves, what is that Law talking about predominantly at it's heart or core?
Does this law focus more on performing some kind of ceremony or fulfilling some kind of type?
Or does this law focus on loving another like God, or other people (i.e. a Moral Law)?
Does this law focus on dealing with justice or maintaining proper santization?

If you ever heard of the Saturday Sabbath (Which is no longer a binding command under the New Covenant or New Testament), then you would know about a ceremonial law. For the Saturday Sabbath was not about executing justice. The Saturday Sabbath command was not about loving your neighbor. The Saturday Sabbath command was not about santization. The Saturday Sabbath is a ceremony because one would observe the ceremony of resting on a specific day of the week in honor of God resting on the 7th day after the 6 day creation (and ultimately points ahead to the rest we have in Jesus Christ).

Romans 2:14 talks about how the Gentiles were able to keep the Law without having the Law. What Law could this be? It would be the Moral Law. For if you turn on the news, we hear about how theft, murder, and lying is wrong. These are laws that are instinctual to mankind. Yes, there are certain Moral laws that men ignore, but this is because they have let sin harden and or darken their hearts.

You said:

On the one hand, you say we are not under the 613 laws, which includes more than just the ten commandments. Then you say we follow the commands from Jesus and His followers. Which appears to be saying that, yes, we are under the ten commandments. Back under the law again.

Not under 613 laws but under the ten laws in the 613 laws?

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The Saturday Sabbath is no more (See: Colossians 2:16, Romans 14:5). This means that the 10 are no longer a contract that is in effect. The Law of Moses was never given to the church but it was given to Israel. Yes, certain individual laws from the 10 or we should say.... certain individual Moral Laws from the 613 laws of Moses has been repeated into the New covenant or New Testament given to us by Jesus and His followers. In fact, at the sermon on the Mount we learn that Jesus was making changes to the Old Law before the Old Covenant had ended before the cross. This is why Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. I will provied the verse citations in my next post to you.

MMXX said:

Like I keep reminding you, you're the one presenting a case. I've mostly just been pointing out some interesting things you have to say. "demolishes your belief" for instance. Pretty chest thumpy there, Jason. But I suppose when one has special anointing of discernment above other Christians it's hard not to be boastful.

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Again, the name is Bible Highlighter. That is my username, and it's not Jason.
Anyways, your response here is not really fruitful to the discussion involved, unless you bring up some Bible verses to defend your viewpoint. Analyzing my statements without addressing any of the Scripture verses would be a waste of my time to reply to. I come on the forums to talk about the Bible, if that is not your thing to talk about the Bible, then you have run into the wrong person to have a discussion with. I will simply not have a discussion with you if you keep up any kind of discussion that seeks to attack my words, and yet you offer no solid Scripture support for your belief and or a rebuttal of what I believe God's Word says using the Bible. So lets please keep on topic using the Bible please.