A few questions for those who believe in partial atonement (also called limited atonement)

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Peter knew the true Christ by direct revelation given by the Father. The Pharisees thought they believed in Christ but rejected the truth in place of their idol.
You are so confused. I will pray for you.
Who was Peter speaking to?
Matt 16:
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
 
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Dave L

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Anyhow, Lutheranism is not Martin Luther. Not saying Lutheranism is right on everything, just saying you can hold to universialism and not adding works to salvation.
Universalism applies to the elect only. Not to all people ever born.
 
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You are so confused. I will pray for you.
Who was Peter speaking to?
Matt 16:
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

“For what man knoweth the things of a man,

save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.” 1 Corinthians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900)

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” 2 Corinthians 4:3–4 (KJV 1900)
 
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zoidar

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yep - Romans 8:16 -- that works in the Arminian system - but does not work for 3 and 5 point Calvinism until you see that you will continue to persevere 20 years from today. Else your present assurance is retro-deleted.

Hm... I am holding to unlimited atonement yet I failed to persevere a few years back, so I believe it can happen to anyone.
 
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“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

“For what man knoweth the things of a man,

save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.” 1 Corinthians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900)

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” 2 Corinthians 4:3–4 (KJV 1900)

I really hate circular arguments.<sigh>:mad: Why can't you answer my questions? Let me make it easy for you. Is Jesus the Christ? Please simply yes or no.
 
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Hm... I am an universialist yet I failed to persevere a few years back, so I believe it can happen to anyone.
Faith = believing God saved you. You cannot have saving faith if you think you can be lost.
 
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true. So do we all I think.



That is not logical

It is a binary scenario. One or the other is correct by definition

It is like "is there a God yes or no?" -- one of those options is most certainly correct whether you are an Atheist or a Christian or a Hindu you could know that much. You may be wrong about which option is correct - but you will always be correct on the fact that one of the two is correct.
Is it logical when a man has spent his entire life as a thief, moments before his death to be told by Jesus that he will be with Him? Neither of us know how our last few moments in life will pan out.
 
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I really hate circular arguments.<sigh>:mad: Why can't you answer my questions? Let me make it easy for you. Is Jesus the Christ? Please simply yes or no.
Which Jesus? Is it the one people choose or the one that chooses people?
 
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Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
 
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Please just answer the question.:rolleyes:
You have at least two entirely different versions of Christ today. As I said the true Christ is the one who chooses whom he will save. Not the one unregenerate minds think they choose as a condition for salvation.
 
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Anyhow, Lutheranism is not Martin Luther. Not saying Lutheranism is right on everything, just saying you can hold to universialism and not adding works to salvation.

Universalism is not the same as the Provisional Atonement (Which is for the majority of the world).

Universalism teaches that every single person will end up saved in the end.
The Bible does not teach this. The Bible teaches that there is one group who will be saved and another group that will be lost at the judgment.

The Provisional Atonement (Which is for the majority of the world) simply means that Christ provided an atonement or way of salvation for all people so that they might be saved if they freely so choose to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and remain loyal to Him (by obedience) to Him in this life. Hebrews 5:9 basically says Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

Oh, and Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8 teach that there are certain individuals whose names are not even written in the book of life since the foundation of the world on account of God knowing that they will worship the beast in the future. So it's not unconditional election. God did not elect them because of the bad in what He knew they were going to do. But besides Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8, the rest of humanity had their sins provisionally paid for so as to receive the free gift. But they would need to act on accepting this free gift in order to apply the atonement personally to their lives. This is why 2 Peter 2:1 talks about how there are false teachers who are able to deny the Lord that bought them. Obviously false teachers who deny the Lord are not saved. But yet, 2 Peter 2:1 says the Lord bought them. This means that a Provisional Atonement or way of salvation was provided for them, but they simply did not take it.
 
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If we don't know we are saved, we don't know we are of the elect. Then we don't know if Jesus bore our sins right? That's a troublesome place to be.

You are absolutely correct, it is most certainly a troublesome situation . That is why the feet of those that bring the good news are blessed, for without them the the message would not go out . Romans 10;15
And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
 
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Anyhow, Lutheranism is not Martin Luther. Not saying Lutheranism is right on everything, just saying you can hold to universialism and not adding works to salvation.

When I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

#2. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Justification will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement
 
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Anyhow, Lutheranism is not Martin Luther. Not saying Lutheranism is right on everything, just saying you can hold to universialism and not adding works to salvation.

The best way to understand the “Provisional Atonement” (not limited atonement) is sort of like if somebody wrote a check to pay off all your debts. If you receive their check, and then you pay off those in whom you are in debt to, then you will be free from your debts. But if you refused the check or you spent the check on other things that would just place you even more into debt, you are not using that check as it was supposed to be intended for. So in one sense, one can say that your debt is paid in that the check is available to you, but in another sense, you need to cash the check and pay off your creditors.
 
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Hm... I am an universialist yet I failed to persevere a few years back, so I believe it can happen to anyone.

I really hate circular arguments.<sigh>:mad: Why can't you answer my questions? Let me make it easy for you. Is Jesus the Christ? Please simply yes or no.

Which Jesus? Is it the one people choose or the one that chooses people?

Universalism is not the same as the Provisional Atonement (Which is for the majority of the world).

Universalism teaches that every single person will end up saved in the end.
The Bible does not teach this. The Bible teaches that there is one group who will be saved and another group that will be lost at the judgment.

The Provisional Atonement (Which is for the majority of the world) simply means that Christ provided an atonement or way of salvation for all people so that they might be saved if they freely so choose to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and remain loyal to Him (by obedience) to Him in this life. Hebrews 5:9 basically says Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

Oh, and Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8 teach that there are certain individuals whose names are not even written in the book of life since the foundation of the world on account of God knowing that they will worship the beast in the future. So it's not unconditional election. God did not elect them because of the bad in what He knew they were going to do. But besides Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8, the rest of humanity had their sins provisionally paid for so as to receive the free gift. But they would need to act on accepting this free gift in order to apply the atonement personally to their lives. This is why 2 Peter 2:1 talks about how there are false teachers who are able to deny the Lord that bought them. Obviously false teachers who deny the Lord are not saved. But yet, 2 Peter 2:1 says the Lord bought them. This means that a Provisional Atonement or way of salvation was provided for them, but they simply did not take it.
The Bible refers to Jesus’ sacrifice as a literal ransom:

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

1 Timothy 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time

Heb. 9: 15…now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

We do have the blood specifically mentioned in Revelation 5:9 They sing a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God saints from every tribe and language and people and nation;

Atonement is a huge misunderstood topic which all the theories do a poor job explaining, look at just one aspect they do not address:

Are we in agreement:

1. Jesus life is the unbelievable huge ransom payment?

2. The ransom payment was made to set children free to go to the Kingdom and be with the Father?

3. Deity (Jesus and God both) made this unbelievable huge payment?

4. All these fit perfectly a ransom scenario?

5. The scripture is not describing Jesus’ cruel torturous death on the cross as being like a ransom payment, but as being a ransom payment?

6. This was all done for “many” and “God’s saints” in some way and in other ways for “all” people?

You may have a problem with “6”, but I am just quoting scripture.

If it is not a kidnapping then it is no “ransoming”, but the Bible tells us there is a ransom payment at least being offered and definitely made for “many” and “God’s saints”.

Peter even help us out more by contrasting the unbelievable huge payment of Christ to just a payment of silver and gold. Who might take silver and gold, so it can be a good analogy for Peter? 1 Peter 1:18 You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold,

A kidnapper holds back the parent’s children awaiting an acceptable ransom payment, so who do you blame for keeping children out of the Kingdom, since we sure do not want to blame ourselves?

When you go up to a nonbelieving sinner what are you trying to get him/her to accept: A doctrine, a denomination, a book, a theology, or something else.NO, you want the nonbeliever to accept “Jesus Christ and Him Crucified” and if he does a child of God is released to enter the Kingdom and be with God, but if the sinner rejects “Jesus Christ and Him crucifies” a child is kept out of the Kingdom.

Does this not sound very much like a kidnapping scenario with a ransom being offered?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is described in scripture as the ransom payment?

Would the sinner holding a child of God out of the Kingdom of God describe a kidnapper?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is a huge sacrificial payment, like you find with children being ransomed?
 
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The Bible refers to Jesus’ sacrifice as a literal ransom:

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

1 Timothy 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time

Heb. 9: 15…now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

We do have the blood specifically mentioned in Revelation 5:9 They sing a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God saints from every tribe and language and people and nation;

Atonement is a huge misunderstood topic which all the theories do a poor job explaining, look at just one aspect they do not address:

Are we in agreement:

1. Jesus life is the unbelievable huge ransom payment?

2. The ransom payment was made to set children free to go to the Kingdom and be with the Father?

3. Deity (Jesus and God both) made this unbelievable huge payment?

4. All these fit perfectly a ransom scenario?

5. The scripture is not describing Jesus’ cruel torturous death on the cross as being like a ransom payment, but as being a ransom payment?

6. This was all done for “many” and “God’s saints” in some way and in other ways for “all” people?

You may have a problem with “6”, but I am just quoting scripture.

If it is not a kidnapping then it is no “ransoming”, but the Bible tells us there is a ransom payment at least being offered and definitely made for “many” and “God’s saints”.

Peter even help us out more by contrasting the unbelievable huge payment of Christ to just a payment of silver and gold. Who might take silver and gold, so it can be a good analogy for Peter? 1 Peter 1:18 You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold,

A kidnapper holds back the parent’s children awaiting an acceptable ransom payment, so who do you blame for keeping children out of the Kingdom, since we sure do not want to blame ourselves?

When you go up to a nonbelieving sinner what are you trying to get him/her to accept: A doctrine, a denomination, a book, a theology, or something else.NO, you want the nonbeliever to accept “Jesus Christ and Him Crucified” and if he does a child of God is released to enter the Kingdom and be with God, but if the sinner rejects “Jesus Christ and Him crucifies” a child is kept out of the Kingdom.

Does this not sound very much like a kidnapping scenario with a ransom being offered?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is described in scripture as the ransom payment?

Would the sinner holding a child of God out of the Kingdom of God describe a kidnapper?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is a huge sacrificial payment, like you find with children being ransomed?

At first, I thought you were arguing for Universalism (i.e. that all will be saved in the end), but after you said a child is kept out of the kingdom by rejecting Jesus, then I was like... Okay.

As for the other words of what you stated:
We receive Jesus and we abide in Him who is our salvation and we accept what He has done for us (with His death, burial, and resurrection), but after we are saved by God's grace, we continue to abide in the Lord in the sanctification process with God doing the good work through us to be fruitful, put away grievous sin, and to live holy lives. God will not continue with us if we turn back to the life of sin we once knew. For the way we know God is by keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). The person who says they know the Lord and they don't keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). Note: This would not be the keeping of the OT Law (the 613). This would be the keeping of the NT Laws that come from Jesus and His followers.
 
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The Bible refers to Jesus’ sacrifice as a literal ransom:

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

1 Timothy 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time

Heb. 9: 15…now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

We do have the blood specifically mentioned in Revelation 5:9 They sing a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God saints from every tribe and language and people and nation;

Atonement is a huge misunderstood topic which all the theories do a poor job explaining, look at just one aspect they do not address:

Are we in agreement:

1. Jesus life is the unbelievable huge ransom payment?

2. The ransom payment was made to set children free to go to the Kingdom and be with the Father?

3. Deity (Jesus and God both) made this unbelievable huge payment?

4. All these fit perfectly a ransom scenario?

5. The scripture is not describing Jesus’ cruel torturous death on the cross as being like a ransom payment, but as being a ransom payment?

6. This was all done for “many” and “God’s saints” in some way and in other ways for “all” people?

You may have a problem with “6”, but I am just quoting scripture.

If it is not a kidnapping then it is no “ransoming”, but the Bible tells us there is a ransom payment at least being offered and definitely made for “many” and “God’s saints”.

Peter even help us out more by contrasting the unbelievable huge payment of Christ to just a payment of silver and gold. Who might take silver and gold, so it can be a good analogy for Peter? 1 Peter 1:18 You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold,

A kidnapper holds back the parent’s children awaiting an acceptable ransom payment, so who do you blame for keeping children out of the Kingdom, since we sure do not want to blame ourselves?

When you go up to a nonbelieving sinner what are you trying to get him/her to accept: A doctrine, a denomination, a book, a theology, or something else.NO, you want the nonbeliever to accept “Jesus Christ and Him Crucified” and if he does a child of God is released to enter the Kingdom and be with God, but if the sinner rejects “Jesus Christ and Him crucifies” a child is kept out of the Kingdom.

Does this not sound very much like a kidnapping scenario with a ransom being offered?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is described in scripture as the ransom payment?

Would the sinner holding a child of God out of the Kingdom of God describe a kidnapper?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is a huge sacrificial payment, like you find with children being ransomed?

1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

So you have to walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you from all sin according to 1 John 1:7.

What is walking in the light mean?

1 John 2:9-11 by the use of indirect wording tells us that walking in the light = loving your brother.

So we have to love our brother in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin (i.e. the Provisional Atonement applies to our lives when we continue in the faith).

Side Note 1: Obviously this applies to only believers who live out their faith. For we know the thief on the cross was saved. But to whom much is given, much is required.

Side Note 2: Loving your brother is not just in word or tongue or giving somebody a high five. We learn about one example of how to love of one's brother in James 2.
 
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