One Simple Question

5thKingdom said:

Dan,


You are, of course, absolutely correct that the "Kingdom of God"
was TAKEN from the Jewish "generation" and it was GIVEN to
the Christian "generation", as Jesus clearly taught during
His Ministry:


Mat 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God
shall be TAKEN FROM YOU, [the Jewish "generation"]
AND GIVEN to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
[The Christian "generation"]


Mat 21:45
And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables,
they perceived that he spake of them.


It is exceedingly interesting that just as the Jews were
NEVER MEANT to understand the END of their "Kingdom",
so also, the Christians were NEVER MEANT to understand
the END of the "church age". Even though Scriptures revealed
there would come a time when all the "lost sheep" were saved,
when all the Saints were "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3] and a time when
the "testimony" of the church would be "finished" [Rev 11:7]...
the "two candlesticks" and "two olive trees" represent the church.


There would come a time when the Holy Spirit would be
"taken out of the way" [2Thess 2:6-9] so that Satan could
be "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit [Rev 9:1-2] in order to
RULE during his "little season" [Rev 20:3 and 11:7], which is also
shown in Scripture as the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"
[Mat 25:1-13] and as the 7-Headed Revelation Beast, who is led
by the Antichrist ["little horn" and/or "false prophet"] and gets
his power and strength and authority from Satan, the dragon.
[Rev 13:2]


Rev 13:2
And the [Revelation] Beast which I saw was like unto a leopard,
[representing the Christian Kingdom] and his feet were as the feet
of a bear, [representing the Jewish Kingdom] and his mouth as the
mouth of a lion [representing the Pre-Flood Kingdom]: and the
dragon [Satan] gave him [the Revelation Beast] his power,
and his seat, and great authority.


Of course we see the same thing taught in the OT prophecy,
showing EACH "Kingdom of Heaven" was a separate and
distinct "generation" of Saints. With EACH Kingdom having
it's own unique Gospel... as God "revealed" His Truth in a progressive manner (to the saints) throughout history.


Dan 7:3-7
And four great Beasts [Kingdoms] came up from the sea,
diverse [different] one from another. The first was like a LION,
[Pre-Flood Kingdom of Rev 13:2] and had eagle's wings: I beheld
till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth,
and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given
to it.[showing the pre-fall and post-fall nature of the first Kingdom]
And behold another Beast, a second, like to a BEAR, [the Jewish
Kingdom of Rev 13:2] and it raised up itself on one side, and it had
three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said
thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo
another, [third Beast/Kingdom] like a LEOPARD, [the Christian
Kingdom of Rev 13:2] which had upon the back of it four wings of
a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
[as the saints "lived and RULED with Christ" during the church age]
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a Fourth Beast,
dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly... [the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" and/or the Revelation "Beast" of Rev 13:2]


However, just as Jews Saints were NEVER MEANT to understand
the END of their "Kingdom", so also, the Christian Saints were
NEVER MEANT to understand the END of their "Kingdom".


Act 1:7
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or
the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


So, Daniel confessed that HE DID NOT UNDERSTAND the
meaning of his own prophecies... but the Bible PROMISED the
Truth would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" until they will be
revealed to the Last Saints at the "time-of-the-end". However,
while, the Bible PROMISED the Last Saints "shall understand"
these Biblical mysteries, it also promised NONE of the unsaved
would be able to understand or accept these Biblical mysteries
[Dan 12:8-10]


Dan 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord,
what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way,
Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed [from all Saints]
till the time of the end. Many [Saints] shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


In fact, we see that JESUS also PROMISED the Last Saints
"shall see ALL THESE THINGS" [all Great Tribulation prophecies]
including the fulfillment of Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation"
and even the NAME of the Antirchrist... just before His Return.
[Mat 24:15 and 24:33-34]


Mat 24:33-34
So likewise ye, [Last Saints] when ye shall see all these things,
know that it [His Return] is near, even at the doors. Verily I say
unto you, This [last] generation [of Saints] shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled.


Now (before any heads explode) we all know (or should know)
there is a generation of LAST SAINTS that "see" (experience) the
fulfillment of ALL Great Tribulation (Revelation Beast) prophecies
BEFORE they are suddenly "changed" into their incorruptible
spiritual bodies in a "twinkling of an eye" (at the Resurrection).


The POINT of all this is simply to show that... just as the Jews
were NEVER MEANT to understand the END of their "Kingdom",
so also, almost 2000 yrs of Christian saints were NEVER MEANT
to understand the END of the church age - and the fulfillment of
ALL "these things" (Great Tribulation prophecies or "signs").


However, the Bible is exceedingly clear [in Dan 12 and Mat 24]
that the Last Saints "shall understand" and we "shall see"...
the fulfillment of all Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast "signs",
even knowing the NAME of the Antichirst.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW: understanding what the Bible PROMISED in Daniel 12:8-10
we can know absolutely that all "interpretations" about fulfillment
of Daniel's four Kingdoms/Beasts MUST BE INCORRECT since the
Bible PROMISES the Truth remains "closed-up" and "sealed"
to all the Saints... until the Last Saints at the "time of the end"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Just as the Jewish Saints were NEVER MEANT to understand
the END of their "Kingdom"... until the LAST JEWISH SAINTS were
"harvested" into the Christian "Kingdom" [John 4:35]


John 4:35
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields;
for they are white already to harvest.


So also, the Christian Saints were NEVER MEANT to understand
the END of their "Kingdom"... until the LAST Christian Saints were
"sealed" [Rev 7:1-3] and the "testimony" of the church age was
"finished" [Rev 11:7] and the Holy Spirit was "taken out of the way"
[2Thess 2:6-9] so Satan could be "loosened" from the Bottomless
Pit [Rev 9:1-2] to RULE in the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast
and the LAST SAINTS, those living during the Great Tribulation and
those who are "changed" in the "twinkling of an eye", will be the
Saints that "shall see" and "shall understand" these Biblical Truths
that were "closed-up" and "sealed" until the "time-of-the-end",
also called the "Season and Time" [Dan 7:11-12]


BTW: This should demonstrate to any rational person that the
common ERROR of thinking the early Saints "understood" the
Scriptures better than the Last Saints... is just foolishness and
the "fruit" of not understanding Scriptures about the Last Saints.


Just as the Christian Saints understood the Gospel MUCH BETTER
than the Jewish Saints... so also the Last Saints understand the
Gospel (and all prophecy) MUCH BETTER than those living during
the church age (before the Last Saints are "sealed" and Holy Spirit
is "taken out of the way").


Jim

Click to expand...

5thKingdom said:

Dan,

Sorry for the delayed response.
I had company over for the weekend.


Before answering your specific questions, which I am
happy to do... I wonder WHY you intentionally ignored the bulk
of my post about the Last Saints - and the Biblical teachings that
they "shall understand" and "shall see" things never known to
any previous saint? As well as the Biblical teaching that Holy Spirit
would be "taken out of the way" before Satan can be "loosed"
and the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast can begin. Would
you be so kind as to not continue to intentionally ignore
those Biblical teachings (passages)?





I did provide a verse... Matthew 21:43 which says that the
"Kingdom of Heaven" is TAKEN from the Jews and GIVEN to
the Christians. I would also note that this REALITY is confirmed
in HISTORY.... or do you pretend the Jewish Kingdom was NOT
TAKEN from them and GIVEN to Christians? I can understand
when people do not realize what SCRIPTURE teaches... but I
always have a problem understanding when "Christians" are
not able to accept what HISTORY (reality) confirms happened
when Jesus came and the LAST Jewish "elect" are "harvested"
into the Christian Kingdom.... which I also supported with specific
SCRIPTURE [John 4:35] that you (again) intentionally ignored.


Would you be so kind as to address the CONTEXT of that verse?
WHO was being "harvested" by Jesus at the END of the Jewish
"Kingdom of Heaven"? Remember, Jesus is the ONLY WAY to
God, so the Jewish Kingdom ENDED at the Cross.





You error because you do not know the Scriptures.
Your "assumption" or "theory" about Luke 12:32 and the "notion"
that the Christian "Kingdom" was only given to the Apostles is just
a DENIAL of History... and a contradiction of Scripture. Therefore,
we can know absolutely that your "theory" is just not Biblical (and is
therefore incorrect) as well as a contradiction of history/reality...
again demonstrating it is incorrect.


I assume your "theory" (based on Luke 12:32 alone) is that the
"Little Flock" in that verse represents ONLY the Apostles... and
NONE of the "disciples" following Jesus (including Lazarus and
Mary and Martha which Scripture says Jesus "loved"). However,
your "theory" is immediately destroyed (repeatedly) by John 10...
as well as the fact the entire CONTEXT of the Christian "Kingdom"
is to "seek and save" ALL of the "lost sheep"... until the LAST
"sheep" is "saved" (born again).


You see Dan, you cannot even PRETEND to have found Biblical
Truth until you can harmonize your "theory" with ALL RELATED
Scripture. Any good heresy can harmonize with one-or-two
passages (there must be SOME truth to make a good lie)
So, your "theory" about Luke 12:32 must harmonize
with ALL SCRIPTURE... or else we know absolutely
that it is a false doctrine. So WHO are the "sheep"
Jesus gave His LIFE for?


First YOUR ONE VERSE "theory" that the "sheep" or "flock"
included ONLY the Apostles (and NONE of His "disciples" during
His lifetime - or ANY of His disciples during the "church age")


Luk 12:32
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure
to give you the kingdom.


And now some RELATED SCRIPTURES that immediately destroy
your one verse "theory".... and I am only offering a few verses,
the ENTIRE "church age" destroys your one verse "theory".


Joh 10:15-16
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father:
and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Joh 10:11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for
[all of] the sheep. [His Atonement covers ALL the sheep]





Again your err because you do not know the Scriptures.
Jesus was VERY CLEAR the "Kingdom of Heaven" contains
ALL of the saved "wheat" (sown by God and destined to eternal
life... and the unsaved "tares" (sown by Satan and destined to
eternal torment. These "wheat and tares" are also shown
as good fish and bad fish... and in EACH case they are
those who LOOK LIKE real saints - but are NOT
separated until the "final harvest" at the
"end of the age".


Now, JESUS explains WHO is included within the
(Christian) "Kingdom of Heaven"


Mat 13:24-30
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The Kingdom of Heaven [that is the CONTEXT] is likened
unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men
slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat,
and went his way. But when the blade [wheat] was sprung up,
and brought forth fruit, [all the saints produce good "fruit"]
then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder
came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy
field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An
enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then
that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye
gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time
of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first
the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them:
but gather the wheat into my barn.


Again... JESUS explains WHO is included in the
(Christian) "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 13:37-43
He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed
is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the
harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire;
so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall
send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM
all things that offend [ALL THE TARES], and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and
gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Again... JESUS explains WHO is included in the
(Christian) "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 13:47-50
Again, The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net, that was
cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when
it was full, [at the END of the Christian "Kingdom"] they drew
to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good [wheat/fish]
into vessels, but cast the bad [tares/fish] away. So shall it be
at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever
the wicked [tares/fish] from among the just [wheat/fish],
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be
wailing and gnashing of teeth.


See... your incorrect "theory" must pretend this passage
ONLY applied to the Apostles and NOT to all Christian Saints
within the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"


Mat 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them
it is not given.


See... your incorrect "theory" must pretend this passage
ONLY applied to the Apostles and NOT to all Christian Saints
within the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto a man which
sowed good seed in his field:


See... your incorrect "theory" must pretend this passage
ONLY applied to the Apostles and NOT to all Christian Saints
within the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 13:33
Another parable spake he unto them;
The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.


See... your incorrect "theory" must pretend this passage
ONLY applied to the Apostles and NOT to all Christian Saints
within the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 13:44
Again, The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field;
the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.


See... your incorrect "theory" must pretend this passage
ONLY applied to the Apostles and NOT to all Christian Saints
within the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 13:45-46
Again, The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a merchant man,
seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl
of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.


See... your incorrect "theory" must pretend this passage
ONLY applied to the Apostles and NOT to all Christian Saints
within the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 13:47
Again, The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net,
that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:


See... your incorrect "theory" must pretend this passage
ONLY applied to the Apostles and NOT to all Christian Saints
within the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a man that is an
householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure
things new and old.


You see Dan, I could go on all day showing you SCRIPTURES
that teach the (Christian) "Kingdom of Heaven" includes all those
following the Christian Gospel. But, if you decide to REJECT what
Scripture says and pretend you can DEFINE the real meaning of
The Kingdom of Heaven by talking about Greek... then you
pretend Scripture is NOT the authority and God does NOT
get to DEFINE the meaning of the Words HE USES.


Jim

Click to expand...

5thKingdom said:

Sorry Dan, your argument is with JESUS (not me).
It is JESUS (not me) that declared those HE SAVES
are (in fact) "His sheep". This is Christian theology 101


But here is your problem:
I already GAVE YOU these verses where JESUS declares
He saves His sheep. You can REJECT the Words of JESUS
and you can pretend Jesus was LYING... but that is only
you pretending.


Joh 10:15-16
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father:
and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have,
which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they
shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Joh 10:11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for
[all of] the sheep. [His Atonement covers ALL the sheep]


So, I have ALREADY GIVEN YOU the Words of Christ claiming:
(1) He is the good shepherd
(2) The saved are His sheep


And there are MANY more passages of SCRIPTURE that show
your doctrine is heresy... as it contradicts the Words of Christ.
So when you contradict the Words of Christ you demonstrate
that you know little to nothing about the True Gospel.


John 10:3-4
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice:
and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them,
and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.


Show you REJECT what JESUS SAID in John 10:11
and you REJECT what JESUS SAID in John 10:15-16
and you REJECT what JESUS SAID in John 10:3-4


But that only proves (1) you REJECT what JESUS (not me) said
and (2) you have NO CONCEPT of the most basic and essential
elements of the Gospel.... that Jesus came to "seek and save"
those (sheep) that were lost.


Luke 19:10
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save
that which was lost.


You can respond if you feel you must (since you did NOT
respond to the vast majority of what Biblical Truth I have
already shown you)... but I will be ignoring you because
I simply cannot take you seriously.


Anyone who does not even understand (or rejects) Jesus
as the "good shepherd" and the saved as "His sheep"...
demonstrates they do not understand the most basic and
essential elements of the Gospel of the Bible and, therefore,
they cannot be taken as a serious "student" of the Bible.


Jim

Click to expand...

5thKingdom said:

I notice you intentionally IGNORED the Words of Christ (below)
for a SECOND TIME.


If you want to be taken seriously you must HARMONIZE the
WORDS OF CHRIST with your "theory".


Until then you are "taking away" from the "words of this book"
and the BIBLE (not me) promises that is the "fruit" of...


Dan, if you can intentionally IGNORE all the passages you do not
LIKE in the Bible... then you are NOT preaching the Gospel of the
Bible, you are designing your own "gospel" to contradict the Bible.


Here are the WORDS OF CHRIST that you must intentionally
REJECT and IGNORE in order to have your "designer gospel"...
let me know when you can address these verses.


Joh 10:15-16
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father:
and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have,
which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they
shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Joh 10:11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for
[all of] the sheep. [His Atonement covers ALL the sheep]


Joh 10:3-4
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice:
and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them,
and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.


As I already explained to you, this is Christian theology 101.
If you do not understand Jesus is the good shepherd and all
the "elect" are "His sheep"... then you do not understand the
MOST BASIC and MOST ESSENTIAL elements of the Gospel.
It is really as simple as that.


Jim

Click to expand...

5thKingdom said:

(1) First, the Gospel is NOT SHOWN in one verse.
The ONLY measure of Biblical Truth is harmony of ALL RELATED
Scriptures. If you cannot harmonize all Scriptures about a subject
(if you are forced to reject or ignore verses) then you can know,
absolutely, that you have not found Biblical Truth.


(2) Secondly... I GAVE YOU three verses in the last post
that you ignore - because they contradict your false doctrines.
I GAVE YOU the same three verses in the post before that.
Do you even BOTHER to actually READ the posts? How can
I possibly take you seriously when you REPEATEDLY reject
and intentionally ignore SCRIPTURES that contradict your
false doctrines?


(3) Finally, if you do not understand the Gospel of the Bible
is ALL ABOUT Jesus coming to saved "His sheep"... through
His Atonement and through the Great Commission where ALL
of "His Sheep" are found and "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]... then
you have no understanding of the Gospel and, as I said before,
I simply cannot take you seriously.


If you want to be taken seriously then AT LEAST address the
SCRIPTURES I have already GIVEN YOU in post #26 (above).
Until then you are wasting my time and embarrassing yourself.


Jim

Click to expand...

5thKingdom said:

Sorry for the delayed response.
I had company over for the weekend.


Before answering your specific questions, which I am
happy to do... I wonder WHY you intentionally ignored the bulk
of my post about the Last Saints - and the Biblical teachings that
they "shall understand" and "shall see" things never known to
any previous saint? As well as the Biblical teaching that Holy Spirit
would be "taken out of the way" before Satan can be "loosed"
and the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast can begin. Would
you be so kind as to not continue to intentionally ignore
those Biblical teachings (passages)?



I did provide a verse... Matthew 21:43 which says that the
"Kingdom of Heaven" is TAKEN from the Jews and GIVEN to
the Christians. I would also note that this REALITY is confirmed
in HISTORY.... or do you pretend the Jewish Kingdom was NOT
TAKEN from them and GIVEN to Christians? I can understand
when people do not realize what SCRIPTURE teaches... but I
always have a problem understanding when "Christians" are
not able to accept what HISTORY (reality) confirms happened
when Jesus came and the LAST Jewish "elect" are "harvested"
into the Christian Kingdom.... which I also supported with specific
SCRIPTURE [John 4:35] that you (again) intentionally ignored.


Would you be so kind as to address the CONTEXT of that verse?
WHO was being "harvested" by Jesus at the END of the Jewish
"Kingdom of Heaven"? Remember, Jesus is the ONLY WAY to
God, so the Jewish Kingdom ENDED at the Cross.



You error because you do not know the Scriptures.
Your "assumption" or "theory" about Luke 12:32 and the "notion"
that the Christian "Kingdom" was only given to the Apostles is just
a DENIAL of History... and a contradiction of Scripture. Therefore,
we can know absolutely that your "theory" is just not Biblical (and is
therefore incorrect) as well as a contradiction of history/reality...
again demonstrating it is incorrect.


I assume your "theory" (based on Luke 12:32 alone) is that the
"Little Flock" in that verse represents ONLY the Apostles... and
NONE of the "disciples" following Jesus (including Lazarus and
Mary and Martha which Scripture says Jesus "loved"). However,
your "theory" is immediately destroyed (repeatedly) by John 10...
as well as the fact the entire CONTEXT of the Christian "Kingdom"
is to "seek and save" ALL of the "lost sheep"... until the LAST
"sheep" is "saved" (born again).


You see Dan, you cannot even PRETEND to have found Biblical
Truth until you can harmonize your "theory" with ALL RELATED
Scripture. Any good heresy can harmonize with one-or-two
passages (there must be SOME truth to make a good lie)
So, your "theory" about Luke 12:32 must harmonize
with ALL SCRIPTURE... or else we know absolutely
that it is a false doctrine. So WHO are the "sheep"
Jesus gave His LIFE for?


First YOUR ONE VERSE "theory" that the "sheep" or "flock"
included ONLY the Apostles (and NONE of His "disciples" during
His lifetime - or ANY of His disciples during the "church age")


Luk 12:32
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure
to give you the kingdom.


And now some RELATED SCRIPTURES that immediately destroy
your one verse "theory".... and I am only offering a few verses,
the ENTIRE "church age" destroys your one verse "theory".

Click to expand...

5thKingdom said:

.
Is it true that God NEVER MEANT for some men to "be converted" or "be forgiven"?


Mar 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know
the mystery of the kingdom of God:but unto them that are without,
all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see,
and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand;
LEST AT ANY TIME they should be CONVERTED, and their sins
should be FORGIVEN them.

.

Click to expand...

Tone said:

Yeah, all flesh.

*Including ours...

Click to expand...

Tone said:

Yeah, the heart that is not good soil is not meant to produce.

I think what you are getting at is that the Creator is responsible for bad soil.

I don't believe that.

Click to expand...

5thKingdom said:

Sorry Dan, your argument is with JESUS (not me).
It is JESUS (not me) that declared those HE SAVES
are (in fact) "His sheep". This is Christian theology 101


But here is your problem:
I already GAVE YOU these verses where JESUS declares
He saves His sheep. You can REJECT the Words of JESUS
and you can pretend Jesus was LYING... but that is only
you pretending.


Joh 10:15-16
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father:
and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have,
which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they
shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Joh 10:11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for
[all of] the sheep. [His Atonement covers ALL the sheep]


So, I have ALREADY GIVEN YOU the Words of Christ claiming:
(1) He is the good shepherd
(2) The saved are His sheep


And there are MANY more passages of SCRIPTURE that show
your doctrine is heresy... as it contradicts the Words of Christ.
So when you contradict the Words of Christ you demonstrate
that you know little to nothing about the True Gospel.


John 10:3-4
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice:
and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them,
and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.


Show you REJECT what JESUS SAID in John 10:11
and you REJECT what JESUS SAID in John 10:15-16
and you REJECT what JESUS SAID in John 10:3-4


But that only proves (1) you REJECT what JESUS (not me) said
and (2) you have NO CONCEPT of the most basic and essential
elements of the Gospel.... that Jesus came to "seek and save"
those (sheep) that were lost.


Luke 19:10
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save
that which was lost.


You can respond if you feel you must (since you did NOT
respond to the vast majority of what Biblical Truth I have
already shown you)... but I will be ignoring you because
I simply cannot take you seriously.


Anyone who does not even understand (or rejects) Jesus
as the "good shepherd" and the saved as "His sheep"...
demonstrates they do not understand the most basic and
essential elements of the Gospel of the Bible and, therefore,
they cannot be taken as a serious "student" of the Bible.


Jim

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5thKingdom said:

Dan,

Sorry for the delayed response.
I had company over for the weekend.


Before answering your specific questions, which I am
happy to do... I wonder WHY you intentionally ignored the bulk
of my post about the Last Saints - and the Biblical teachings that
they "shall understand" and "shall see" things never known to
any previous saint? As well as the Biblical teaching that Holy Spirit
would be "taken out of the way" before Satan can be "loosed"
and the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast can begin. Would
you be so kind as to not continue to intentionally ignore
those Biblical teachings (passages)?





I did provide a verse... Matthew 21:43 which says that the
"Kingdom of Heaven" is TAKEN from the Jews and GIVEN to
the Christians. I would also note that this REALITY is confirmed
in HISTORY.... or do you pretend the Jewish Kingdom was NOT
TAKEN from them and GIVEN to Christians? I can understand
when people do not realize what SCRIPTURE teaches... but I
always have a problem understanding when "Christians" are
not able to accept what HISTORY (reality) confirms happened
when Jesus came and the LAST Jewish "elect" are "harvested"
into the Christian Kingdom.... which I also supported with specific
SCRIPTURE [John 4:35] that you (again) intentionally ignored.


Would you be so kind as to address the CONTEXT of that verse?
WHO was being "harvested" by Jesus at the END of the Jewish
"Kingdom of Heaven"? Remember, Jesus is the ONLY WAY to
God, so the Jewish Kingdom ENDED at the Cross.





You error because you do not know the Scriptures.
Your "assumption" or "theory" about Luke 12:32 and the "notion"
that the Christian "Kingdom" was only given to the Apostles is just
a DENIAL of History... and a contradiction of Scripture. Therefore,
we can know absolutely that your "theory" is just not Biblical (and is
therefore incorrect) as well as a contradiction of history/reality...
again demonstrating it is incorrect.


I assume your "theory" (based on Luke 12:32 alone) is that the
"Little Flock" in that verse represents ONLY the Apostles... and
NONE of the "disciples" following Jesus (including Lazarus and
Mary and Martha which Scripture says Jesus "loved"). However,
your "theory" is immediately destroyed (repeatedly) by John 10...
as well as the fact the entire CONTEXT of the Christian "Kingdom"
is to "seek and save" ALL of the "lost sheep"... until the LAST
"sheep" is "saved" (born again).


You see Dan, you cannot even PRETEND to have found Biblical
Truth until you can harmonize your "theory" with ALL RELATED
Scripture. Any good heresy can harmonize with one-or-two
passages (there must be SOME truth to make a good lie)
So, your "theory" about Luke 12:32 must harmonize
with ALL SCRIPTURE... or else we know absolutely
that it is a false doctrine. So WHO are the "sheep"
Jesus gave His LIFE for?


First YOUR ONE VERSE "theory" that the "sheep" or "flock"
included ONLY the Apostles (and NONE of His "disciples" during
His lifetime - or ANY of His disciples during the "church age")


Luk 12:32
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure
to give you the kingdom.


And now some RELATED SCRIPTURES that immediately destroy
your one verse "theory".... and I am only offering a few verses,
the ENTIRE "church age" destroys your one verse "theory".


Joh 10:15-16
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father:
and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Joh 10:11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for
[all of] the sheep. [His Atonement covers ALL the sheep]





Again your err because you do not know the Scriptures.
Jesus was VERY CLEAR the "Kingdom of Heaven" contains
ALL of the saved "wheat" (sown by God and destined to eternal
life... and the unsaved "tares" (sown by Satan and destined to
eternal torment. These "wheat and tares" are also shown
as good fish and bad fish... and in EACH case they are
those who LOOK LIKE real saints - but are NOT
separated until the "final harvest" at the
"end of the age".


Now, JESUS explains WHO is included within the
(Christian) "Kingdom of Heaven"


Mat 13:24-30
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The Kingdom of Heaven [that is the CONTEXT] is likened
unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men
slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat,
and went his way. But when the blade [wheat] was sprung up,
and brought forth fruit, [all the saints produce good "fruit"]
then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder
came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy
field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An
enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then
that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye
gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time
of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first
the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them:
but gather the wheat into my barn.


Again... JESUS explains WHO is included in the
(Christian) "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 13:37-43
He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed
is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the
harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire;
so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall
send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM
all things that offend [ALL THE TARES], and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and
gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Again... JESUS explains WHO is included in the
(Christian) "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 13:47-50
Again, The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net, that was
cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when
it was full, [at the END of the Christian "Kingdom"] they drew
to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good [wheat/fish]
into vessels, but cast the bad [tares/fish] away. So shall it be
at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever
the wicked [tares/fish] from among the just [wheat/fish],
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be
wailing and gnashing of teeth.


See... your incorrect "theory" must pretend this passage
ONLY applied to the Apostles and NOT to all Christian Saints
within the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"


Mat 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them
it is not given.


See... your incorrect "theory" must pretend this passage
ONLY applied to the Apostles and NOT to all Christian Saints
within the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto a man which
sowed good seed in his field:


See... your incorrect "theory" must pretend this passage
ONLY applied to the Apostles and NOT to all Christian Saints
within the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 13:33
Another parable spake he unto them;
The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.


See... your incorrect "theory" must pretend this passage
ONLY applied to the Apostles and NOT to all Christian Saints
within the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 13:44
Again, The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field;
the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.


See... your incorrect "theory" must pretend this passage
ONLY applied to the Apostles and NOT to all Christian Saints
within the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 13:45-46
Again, The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a merchant man,
seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl
of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.


See... your incorrect "theory" must pretend this passage
ONLY applied to the Apostles and NOT to all Christian Saints
within the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 13:47
Again, The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net,
that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:


See... your incorrect "theory" must pretend this passage
ONLY applied to the Apostles and NOT to all Christian Saints
within the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a man that is an
householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure
things new and old.


You see Dan, I could go on all day showing you SCRIPTURES
that teach the (Christian) "Kingdom of Heaven" includes all those
following the Christian Gospel. But, if you decide to REJECT what
Scripture says and pretend you can DEFINE the real meaning of
The Kingdom of Heaven by talking about Greek... then you
pretend Scripture is NOT the authority and God does NOT
get to DEFINE the meaning of the Words HE USES.


Jim

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