John the Baptist , Truth & Fake News

mindlight

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Each year I seem to get given the John Baptist sermon slots. Last year I focused on him as a prophet and his testimony to Christ. Rather than repeating myself this year I thought I would take a look at his relationship with the various Jewish theological groups of the time and contrast the truth of his testimony with the fake news that they were spewing out. What was it about his approach that worked and what was it about theirs that doomed them to their deceived little bubbles of ignorance , sort of thing.

Qumran obviously has the closest match with the John the Baptist ascetic lifestyle in the Judean desert. Some have even suggested that John the Baptist was a member of that community in his undocumented years.

So to focus this in some questions:

1) Was John the Baptist a member of the Qumran community before his ministry?
2) Are there similarities between his words and lifestyle and the Essenes?
3) What was it about the Pharisees, Saduccees, Essenes and Herodians that doomed them to be fake news outlets rather than truth givers? How did they get it so wrong? How come they did not recognise Jesus when he came but John did?

Anyway I would appreciate your thoughts.
 

A_Thinker

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Each year I seem to get given the John Baptist sermon slots. Last year I focused on him as a prophet and his testimony to Christ. Rather than repeating myself this year I thought I would take a look at his relationship with the various Jewish theological groups of the time and contrast the truth of his testimony with the fake news that they were spewing out. What was it about his approach that worked and what was it about theirs that doomed them to their deceived little bubbles of ignorance , sort of thing.

Qumran obviously has the closest match with the John the Baptist ascetic lifestyle in the Judean desert. Some have even suggested that John the Baptist was a member of that community in his undocumented years.

So to focus this in some questions:

1) Was John the Baptist a member of the Qumran community before his ministry?
2) Are there similarities between his words and lifestyle and the Essenes?
3) What was it about the Pharisees, Saduccees, Essenes and Herodians that doomed them to be fake news outlets rather than truth givers? How did they get it so wrong? How come they did not recognise Jesus when he came but John did?

Anyway I would appreciate your thoughts.
3) The Pharisees considered themselves societally superior.
The Saducees considered themselves intellectually superior.
The Herodians pursued political superiority.

The Essenes may have been receptive to the gospel ...
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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1. Possibly, but I doubt it. The Essenes were not big on engaging with society, as opposed to the whole ministry of John calling for repentance thereof.
2. Some similarities, such as asceticism.
3. I don't know, what of people like Nicodemus or Gamaliel? I like to think of Jesus' ministry combining the best of all the different schools of Judaism. Human things are seldom perfect, but there were good and bad elements in each (even to a small extent the Herodians, who at least were trying to accomodate the Roman political world they found themselves in).

I made a thread discussing elements of this before, if you are interested:

Was John the Baptist an Essene?
 
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mindlight

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3) The Pharisees considered themselves societally superior.
The Saducees considered themselves intellectually superior.
The Herodians pursued political superiority.

The Essenes may have been receptive to the gospel ...

The Essenes rejected the dominant Sadducees lived an ascetic life. Immersion, Poverty, Asceticism and Law were features of their worship style which did not revolve around the temple. They had very strict membership rules expelling those who broke them. They had a celibate priestly class. There is no obvious deceit in their writings. Maybe they could have been the conspiracy theorists of the age rejecting all central authority. They rejected Herodian and Temple authority.

The Pharisees were the ones who understood the Mosaic law best. They believed in the resurrection and in angels and they preached a form of legalistic obedience to the law of Moses. Their canon of scriptures included the broader Old Testament. They were not guilty so much of misinformation, except regarding the identity of Jesus, but rather of self righteousness, smug pomposity and hypocrisy. It was not what they said but the way they said it. They were so full of themselves that they did not recognise Jesus when he came.

The Sadducees were the dominant group in the Temple worship and priestly hierarchies. Caiaphas was a Sadducee. They were more wealthy aristocrats and were worldly which in the times meant more Greek and they married their scriptural understanding with the latest Greek fads and imaginations. They only accepted the written law which they fancied affirmed their primacy neglecting the broader canon of the Old Testament. They believed in neither the resurrection nor in angels. So their fake news was selective and self affirming. Jesus said they did not know the scriptures or the power of God.

The Herodians were supportive of the Herodian dynasty and really wanted a religion that affirmed their kingship, did not offend the Romans too much and which did not rock the boat regarding the kings adulteries, taxes etc. So I guess their fake news would have been a form of propaganda for the Herodian kingship. They were hostile to Jesus.
 
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mindlight

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1. Possibly, but I doubt it. The Essenes were not big on engaging with society, as opposed to the whole ministry of John calling for repentance thereof.
2. Some similarities, such as asceticism.
3. I don't know, what of people like Nicodemus or Gamaliel? I like to think of Jesus' ministry combining the best of all the different schools of Judaism. Human things are seldom perfect, but there were good and bad elements in each (even to a small extent the Herodians, who at least were trying to accomodate the Roman political world they found themselves in).

I made a thread discussing elements of this before, if you are interested:

Was John the Baptist an Essene?

Thanks for your thread. Think this thread is more interested in how Jesus interacted with the theologies of each of these groups, what was it about them that enabled them to see or not see him for what he was. Also what were the influences on Johns life. You seem to reject the idea that he was an Essene in the other thread for these reasons:

1. John the Baptist was a public figure and widely seen as a holy man, to such an extent that there was an outcry when he was killed and calamities that befell Herod Antipas blamed on his murder. Essenes were secretive and kept to themselves.
2. Josephus never calls John an Essene.
3. His followers do not seem to follow the strict hierarchy we see Essene groups adopt.
4. He is never explicitly called an Essene in the New Testament.


There are similarities with John and Jesus in the principle of immersion which was a fore runner of Baptism. They seem a clean bunch and quite disciplined and the living in remote places like John in the desert seems also to be a similarity.

It seems doubtful that Johns parents Elizabeth and Zacherius lived long after his birth. John appears to be a man who grew up in the desert and often alone. There is a harshness and extremity about the man that does not communicate I grew up in a normal loving home. He was a hard man able to feed himself in these harsh places. He seems to have acquired an understanding of the law and of the teachings of scripture from somewhere. Essene teachers or Pharisaic Rabbis may have been a source there. Or maybe he had scrolls inherited from his priestly father which he was able to read.

I doubt if Jesus had much in common with the dominant Saducees. Essenes and Pharisees seem more likely. Herodians were very much opposed.
 
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Aaron_Bethlhm

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1) Was John the Baptist a member of the Qumran community before his ministry?
Maybe. (and quite possibly not likely?)

2) Are there similarities between his words and lifestyle and the Essenes?
Sure. Otherwise the question would not be at all difficult to answer or research. Even if he was not , a lot of people would try to make it like as if he was an Essene. I don't know if he was or not.

3) What was it about the Pharisees, Saduccees, Essenes and Herodians that doomed them to be fake news outlets rather than truth givers? How did they get it so wrong? How come they did not recognise Jesus when he came but John did?
Jesus said those religious teachers and religious scholars sought to kill Jesus.
(other than those who believed in Him, or faithful to TORAH refrained from seeking to kill Jesus)
They got it entirely wrong, like most people everywhere today, for the same reason - born of the flesh, not reborn, not born again, nor repenting of their sin, not turning to God, not trusting Jesus nor God...

John in the womb recognized Jesus. (from what is written in Scripture)
John was called and prepared by the Father , both as clearly happened, as well as prophesied hundreds of years earlier that he would be ....
Those who did not recognize Jesus
is basically the same today as then.
Jesus spoke directly to them also - and told them so, told them what was evil and wrong in their lives, and most of them did not repent (apparently).
A few did (apparently).
There was very much wrong in those who rejected Jesus, not just a little bit.
Same today.
 
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bèlla

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If I taught on the subject I'd be less inclined to build a case about how they got it wrong. That articulates a them vs us philosophy which contradicts scripture. Solomon said there's nothing new under the sun. Human nature doesn't change.

Most Christians assume they'd behave differently. They believe they would have chosen Him or followed the Lord faithfully in the wilderness and Promised Land. But they're wrong.

I would demonstrate the connection between the past and present. Everything you described exists in the church. We don't see the Pharisee, Sadducee, Essene and Herodians in our midst. But they're here. You can see it on the forum.

I'd give them a mirror and something to chew on. Who am I amongst the four? :)

Yours in His Service,

~bella
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Each year I seem to get given the John Baptist sermon slots. Last year I focused on him as a prophet and his testimony to Christ. Rather than repeating myself this year I thought I would take a look at his relationship with the various Jewish theological groups of the time and contrast the truth of his testimony with the fake news that they were spewing out. What was it about his approach that worked and what was it about theirs that doomed them to their deceived little bubbles of ignorance , sort of thing.

Qumran obviously has the closest match with the John the Baptist ascetic lifestyle in the Judean desert. Some have even suggested that John the Baptist was a member of that community in his undocumented years.

So to focus this in some questions:

1) Was John the Baptist a member of the Qumran community before his ministry?
2) Are there similarities between his words and lifestyle and the Essenes?
3) What was it about the Pharisees, Saduccees, Essenes and Herodians that doomed them to be fake news outlets rather than truth givers? How did they get it so wrong? How come they did not recognise Jesus when he came but John did?

Anyway I would appreciate your thoughts.

The Essenes left Jerusalem 100-200 years before Yeshua was born because the hierarchy in the Temple ruling class were corrupt. They left and moved into the desert and established a community there to separate themselves from the corruption in Jerusalem. John was a Levite so he could have been a priest in the Temple. Instead he went to also live in the desert to prepare the way.

Malachi 3:1 “Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of hosts.
 
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mindlight

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Jesus said those religious teachers and religious scholars sought to kill Jesus.
(other than those who believed in Him, or faithful to TORAH refrained from seeking to kill Jesus)
They got it entirely wrong, like most people everywhere today, for the same reason - born of the flesh, not reborn, not born again, nor repenting of their sin, not turning to God, not trusting Jesus nor God...

John in the womb recognized Jesus. (from what is written in Scripture)
John was called and prepared by the Father , both as clearly happened, as well as prophesied hundreds of years earlier that he would be ....
Those who did not recognize Jesus
is basically the same today as then.
Jesus spoke directly to them also - and told them so, told them what was evil and wrong in their lives, and most of them did not repent (apparently).
A few did (apparently).
There was very much wrong in those who rejected Jesus, not just a little bit.
Same today.

John testified to Jesus.

The Herodians tried to kill him at birth, imprisoning John the Baptist for speaking truthes about the King and killing him for the pleasure of a dancing girl. But later they just wanted Jesus to perform miracles for them and entertain them and they sent him back to Pilate still alive.

The Pharisees were a mixed bunch, committed to the Mosaic law but hedging it around with tiny rules that missed the point. They often followed the letter of the law rather than its spirit. They were very conscious of what the people thought about them. But Nicodemus, Paul and Gamaliel all showed that it was possible for Pharisees to find Jesus and to be truthful and honest men.

The Essenes also seem to have an accurate perception of the dynamics of Jewish society. They were Amish in their withdrawal from its corruption and their commitment to purity. It is hard to write them all off as completely evil

The Sadducees had a country to run, wealth and privileges to protect. They had only a partial understanding of the law and they took the bits that affirmed their privileges. As Jesus said they did not know the scriptures or the power of God.

So looking at the different groups, all were wrong in their perceptions of Jesus in one way or another. But with the Pharisees and Essenes the gap was not as profound as with the Herodians and the Sadducees.
 
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mindlight

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If I taught on the subject I'd be less inclined to build a case about how they got it wrong. That articulates a them vs us philosophy which contradicts scripture. Solomon said there's nothing new under the sun. Human nature doesn't change.

Most Christians assume they'd behave differently. They believe they would have chosen Him or followed the Lord faithfully in the wilderness and Promised Land. But they're wrong.

I would demonstrate the connection between the past and present. Everything you described exists in the church. We don't see the Pharisee, Sadducee, Essene and Herodians in our midst. But they're here. You can see it on the forum.

I'd give them a mirror and something to chew on. Who am I amongst the four? :)

Yours in His Service,

~bella

Yes I think that it a better approach, I want to build bridges that people can cross rather than walls that leave them on paths to hell.

For an Herodian to be saved he had to change Master. It was a question of whom do you serve? Jesus or Herod? This was a decision that might involve sacrifice but I could envisage even one of those baby killing soldiers turning to Jesus , full of guilt in later life. Or indeed the executioners of John realising they had killed a righteous man and turning to Jesus to wash them clean. When researching I found a theory that Paul may have been related to Herod (Romans 16:11). Not sure if this theory ever went mainstream (Robert Eisenman).

For a Pharisee or an Essene to be saved it was a question of showing how the scriptures pointed to Christ. Nicodemus is an example of how this was already apparent to the Pharisees who followed Jesus ministry and Paul a student of Gamaliel showed how it was possible to reconcile the law with the life of Christ and see its fulfillment in him. Jesus modeled the spirit of the law and not merely the letter of the law. Pharisees would come out into the desert to hear Johns words and to gain a fuller understanding of his teachings, later they would come out to hear Jesus also. Essenes were already out there in the desert and it seems improbable that they did not come to hear what Jesus had to say or indeed John who in many ways spoke and dressed like one of them albeit more actively critical of the kingship than they chose to be. For these people it is a question of activating the knowledge that they already have and refocusing it on Christ who indeed is the key to making sense of it. Even when saved these guys would have much to overcome for instance in their racist regard of foreigners. Later in the traditions of the church the desert fathers have a sort of parallel with the Essenes. These emerged at around the time the church secured the throne of Caesar under Constantine and represented a desire for a purity that required withdrawal and isolationism from the rest of the world. Later still the monastic movement would do the same. Essenes are the isolationists among us who remain convinced that the capital city is a swamp and that the powers that be are irredeemably corrupt and conspiring to do us harm.

For Sadducees it is harder since they were more deeply deceived and wedded to their wealth and privileges in control of the temple worship, its rituals and revenues. They were more liberal than the Pharisees , on matters not pertaining to the law, but that did not always make them more open to actual truths. They rejected the broader Jewish scriptures and were friendly to the Romans who oppressed the common people and therefore also staunch advocates for the status quo. I do not know of any examples of this dominant caste of priest becoming saved and they became extinct at around the time the Romans destroyed the temple which was the heart of their power, so maybe the judgment was most extreme on them for a reason. But even here it is possible to envisage Christs miracles having effect. When John baptised People, who is say whether curious Sadducees were not among those who came out from the temple to hear what he had to say even if at the time they received this shocking rebuke:

O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you, that God is able from these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Matthew 3:7-10
 
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mindlight

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The Essenes left Jerusalem 100-200 years before Yeshua was born because the hierarchy in the Temple ruling class were corrupt. They left and moved into the desert and established a community there to separate themselves from the corruption in Jerusalem. John was a Levite so he could have been a priest in the Temple. Instead he went to also live in the desert to prepare the way.

Malachi 3:1 “Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of hosts.

John had a sense of mission, he recognised the Messiah, his cousin even before he was born, when Mary came to visit with Jesus in her womb and while Elizabeth his mother was still pregnant.

There are many theories as to why he went into the desert. One is that shortly after Jesus birth Herod tried to wipe out anyone who could challenge him for the throne. He killed the babies in Bethlehem and also apparently killed Zechariah and Elizabeth (Johns parents). John was saved but orphaned and he grew up in the desert to avoid being killed by the Herodians. It is possible then he had interactions with the Essenes but he contrasted with them also in that he used the desert as a pulpit to denounce the central authorities while they used it as a way to separate themselves from them.

It is probably deeply significant that John the greatest of all the prophets came from a priestly family just as Samuel who also prophesised and stood on the threshold of the era of the prophets and kings had also been a priest. Here in Christ the King of Kings and our great high priest are all the words of the prophets fulfilled and the sacrifices of the temple completed. Christ is King, Priest and Prophet in the same person.

YOur quote from Malachi 3:1 is significant. Jesus quoted this here:

"For this is he of whom it is written: 'Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.'" (Matthew 11:10; cf. Luke 7:27)

This is proof that Jesus did not share the Sadducee's conviction of Moses only but rather was more in the tradition of the Pharisees and Essenes. As the Dead Sea Scrolls show they also read the fullness of OT scripture and not just the books of Moses.
 
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