The connection between the Physical and Spiritual

Aaron_Bethlhm said:

I don't think this is indicated.

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I think it`s indicated by the fact that they are sons. Explain your position on that.

Minister Monardo said:

No worries. I wasn't saying you are dismissive, or trying to be, I am saying that the topic is clearly
in need of further examination. The good son represents the tax collectors and harlots because they
"received Jesus gladly". Here is something less of a parable, but right on topic. Jesus again places
the spotlight on John and his baptism.
Luke 7:
29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized
with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized
by him.
Literally, they rejected the will of God within themselves. Their decision to reject John's message
came with consequences. Same message as in Matthew 21 two sons parable. A question previously
proposed still stands:
Why does believing John matter, if Messiah is standing before them?
Mark 12:37. Therefore David himself calls Him Lord; how is He then his Son?
And the common people heard Him gladly.

Acts 2:41. Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

So to get back on point, are these decisions being made predestined, or is God's plan and purpose,
based on foreknowledge. God doesn't make mistakes. Judas wasn't a mistake, because
his actions were a part of God's Will, His purpose. Even as Christ spoke unto Pilate.

Johns 19:11. Jesus answered, You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been
given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.



It seemed we were near agreement on something here.

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My belief is that you have to find out about Jesus which becomes the seed that sprouts your faith.
Once faith develops you have the option to seek salvation.
Salvation is granted when the Holy Spirit comes to circumcise your heart and dwell in your body.
The Holy Spirit is the power to become a son of God that is given.

Minister Monardo said:

John 3:16. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever
believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

If they believe this, they have a perfect shot.

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This verse goes right over the heads of most. They twist it into a religion for the self-righteous where they can "choose" to believe and supposedly save themselves.

Jesus is YHWH said:

Regarding the blind, deaf and the mute.

Exodus 4:11
11 The Lord said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

Matthew 13:11-17
11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING , BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL ,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR ,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES ,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES ,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS ,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN ,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'
16 "But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.

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Do you understand what passages like this mean? Notice here that it says "they have closed their eyes". God didn't close their spiritual eyes, they closed their own eyes. Jesus said "otherwise, they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, and I would heal them".

The fact that they closed their own eyes to the truth places all of the blame squarely on people like the Pharisees that Jesus was talking about there. It wasn't that they never had any ability to acknowledge the truth. They continually suppressed it to the point where they became spiritually blind and deaf and their hearts became hardened. God didn't do that to them, they did it to themselves. God merely gave them over to their wickedness. It isn't that He didn't want them to repent and believe as the following proves:

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

It wasn't Christ's desire for them to reject Him. They "would not", which means they willingly chose to rebel against Him instead of accepting Him as their Lord and Savior. If that's what He wanted for them then this passage would make no sense at all.

We see several instances in scripture where people choose to defy God and stubbornly refuse to repent and believe and then God gives them over to their wickedness. He does not just randomly pick some people to whom He reveals the truth while withholding it from others. God is very patient with people, giving them plenty of opportunity to repent (2 Peter 3:9), but He doesn't have limitless patience.

Here are examples of cases where God only gave people over to their wickedness or hardened them AFTER they had already stubbornly refused to acknowledge Him and their sins.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Notice that these wicked rebels had no excuse for not glorifying God and being thankful to Him. If they couldn't help but rebel against Him and had no choice but to do so then they would have had an excuse for their behavior. But, they didn't. Notice that they were not always "vain in their imaginations" and their heart was not originally darkened. It says "they knew God", but they "became vain in their imaginations" and their foolishness caused their hearts to be darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Notice that in response to them becoming fools and changing the glory of the uncorruptible God into images of corruptible things He then "gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts".

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Once again, this is talking about people who "worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator". It was because of their choice to worship creation rather than the Creator that God then "gave them up unto vile affections" including homosexual behavior.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Notice here that God didn't randomly give them over to a reprobate mind, He did it in response to them not retaining "God in their knowledge".

Here's another example of what I'm talking about:

2 Thess 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Notice what comes first here. These people chose not to accept and embrace "the truth, that they might be saved" and instead "had pleasure in unrighteousness". It is because of their rebellion against God that "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie".

Calvinism teaches that everything is up to God and man has no choice in the matter of salvation. This implies that God only wants some people to repent and not the rest. But scripture says God wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9). The following passage proves this:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. 13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. 14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; 15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

Dave L said:

This verse goes right over the heads of most. They twist it into a religion for the self-righteous where they can "choose" to believe and supposedly save themselves.

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No, it says that people can choose to acknowledge that they are not righteous and are sinners who can't save themselves and need Christ to save them from the penalty of their sins.

For the sake of argument, assume that the tax collector/publican in the following parable chose to humble himself before God and the Pharisee chose to exalt himself.

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

If the tax collector willingly chose to humble himself rather than exalt himself and chose to ask God for mercy for being a sinner, how would that mean he was being self-righteous? It's clearly the Pharisee who is self-righteous in this parable, not the tax collector.

If someone chooses to accept the free gift of salvation and forgiveness of sins, who gets the credit? The one who humbly receives the free gift? Of course not. It's the One who offered the gift who deserves all the credit. The one who received it didn't do anything but humbly receive it. It makes no sense to see such a person as being self-righteous when they just acknowledged that they are not righteous.

Jesus is YHWH said:

Regarding the blind, deaf and the mute.

Exodus 4:11
11 The Lord said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

Matthew 13:11-17
11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING , BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL ,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR ,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES ,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES ,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS ,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN ,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'
16 "But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.

Mark 4:10-12
10 As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. 11And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."

Luke 8:10
10 And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.

John 9:39-41
39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind." 40Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?" 41Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.

John 12:39-41
39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40"HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM." 41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.


1 Corinthians 2:14-16
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:3-6
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

hope this helps !!!

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Let’s look at the allegation you are making, that God hardens hearts, blinds eyes, stops up ears, so the non elect can’t understand and can’t be saved - and that on top of that He had Jesus teach in parables, so the non elect can’t understand, or believe, or be saved.

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’

It’s obvious in the scriptures that they are rebellious against God, and have closed their minds to the word of the prophets - their heart has grown dull, they closed their eyes.

This is something they did to themselves, and Isaiah 6 says their worship of idols is the reason why they’ve closed their eyes and shut their ears.

Jesus spoke to those same people in parables, because He’s given them over to their reprobate hearts and won’t keep telling them the truth that they’ve already rejected.

In the 2 Corinthians 4:3-6 text, the god of this world that blinds eyes is Satan not Jehovah.

In reformed dogma, there is zero need to blind the eyes of the unelect or to speak in parables that they can’t understand, because God withholds regeneration from those predestined to hell, leaving them spiritually dead, which means it’s impossible for them to ever believe the gospel, even when it’s clearly explained to them in great detail.

Thus your attempt to prove that God deliberately and with malicious aforethought withholds any chance for salvation from the non elect, is erroneous.

Looks like some Calvinists don’t have a grasp on reformed dogma regarding election.

In reformed doctrine, no one is inclined to believe, since all are born spiritually dead and unable to believe at all - but those predestined to salvation, aka the elect, are regenerated by God, which makes them spiritually alive, and able to respond to the gospel with faith.

The unlucky non elect, born predestined to hell and being hated by God, have regeneration withheld from them, leaving them spiritually dead and unable to respond to the gospel and believe.

Being left spiritually dead and unable to believe the gospel means there would be no need to blind eyes and harden hearts, or speak in parables to keep the unelect from believing - that would be redundant.

But Calvinism is wrong.

chad kincham said:

Looks like some Calvinists don’t have a grasp on reformed dogma regarding election.

In reformed doctrine, no one is inclined to believe, since all are born spiritually dead and unable to believe at all - but those predestined to salvation, aka the elect, are regenerated by God, which makes them spiritually alive, and able to respond to the gospel with faith.

The unlucky non elect, born predestined to hell and being hated by God, have regeneration withheld from them, leaving them spiritually dead and unable to respond to the gospel and believe.

Being left spiritually dead and unable to believe the gospel means there would be no need to blind eyes and harden hearts, or speak in parables to keep the unelect from believing - that would be redundant.

But Calvinism is wrong.

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You can really kick that Calvin strawman around. Good job.

RickReads said:

You can really kick that Calvin strawman around. Good job.

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Don't bother telling him what he said that isn't true about Calvinism or anything. Good job.

Spiritual Jew said:

Don't bother telling him what he said that isn't true about Calvinism or anything. Good job.

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??? What?

RickReads said:

You can really kick that Calvin strawman around. Good job.

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I know it’s a good job.

chad kincham said:

I know it’s a good job.

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From what I see you pretty much do a hit and run. Lot`s of unanswered posts you run away from.

You like to spam as well, your excuses don`t fool me.

RickReads said:

??? What?

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What now?

Spiritual Jew said:

What now?

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I was tempted but I`ll let JisY answer his own posts. I`ll be looking at you though.

RickReads said:

I was tempted but I`ll let JisY answer his own posts. I`ll be looking at you though.

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You said he was making a straw man argument and then didn't proceed to explain how. Why not?

Spiritual Jew said:

You said he was making a straw man argument and then didn't proceed to explain how. Why not?

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You`ll have to give me a post # because I dunno what you are talking about.

RickReads said:

You`ll have to give me a post # because I dunno what you are talking about.

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Your post #28 which was in response to Chad's post #27. If he was making a strawman argument then why don't you show what exactly he said that isn't true about Calvinism?

Spiritual Jew said:

Your post #28 which was in response to Chad's post #27. If he was making a strawman argument then why don't you show what exactly he said that isn't true about Calvinism?

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Oh, you mean the Calvinism strawman. The thread isn`t about Calvinism so the anti-Calvin rhetoric is completely off topic, common for Chad IMO.

RickReads said:

Oh, you mean the Calvinism strawman. The thread isn`t about Calvinism so the anti-Calvin rhetoric is completely off topic, common for Chad IMO.

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It's related. The person who created this thread is a Calvinist and promotes Calvinism every chance he gets. He is trying to show in this thread that God hardens people's hearts and blinds them and that is completely His choice based on no discernible reason. But, I showed that He does it in response to people's rebellion against Him.

He has created several new threads all with the goal of promoting his belief in Calvinism. Maybe you didn't know that. Now you do.