It looks like we need to define terms here in order to get on the same page. My understanding of total depravity, as Calvinism would define it, is that it means man is unable to believe in God and in Christ without God indwelling man with His Holy Spirit and causing man to believe irresistibly. Is this how you understand it?
If my definition is accurate according to how you would define total depravity then how could it be that man does not have any excuse for not believing in God and glorifying Him as God and being thankful to Him? Wouldn't he have the excuse that God didn't give him faith in this case?
Thank you for clarifying. I do not believe such an excuse is admissible because we are told in Scripture that all mankind is under the wrath of God for suppressing the truth which God has revealed in nature (Rom. 1:20) and in the law of conscience (Rom. 2:14-16). No one can say to God, “You didn’t give me faith and that’s why I’m like this!”, when he has rejected everything that God has revealed to him and is also unwilling to turn to the Lord and cry out, “Have mercy on me a sinner!”
Calvinism has the order wrong. Regeneration comes after faith in Christ, not before.
Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
I am not quite seeing how Paul’s words show that regeneration comes after faith. Paul is saying that those who heard the Gospel and believed are sealed by the Holy Spirit. In fact, notice that faith comes after hearing the Gospel, which is the means of the regenerative work of the Spirit (effectual calling)! Only upon believing does the Holy Spirit seal that person for the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30). The order is thus: hearing, believing, and sealing.
What does this mean? Please elaborate on this. Why would God command all people everywhere to repent if not all people everywhere are able to repent?
“Ought implies can” is a logical proposition which holds that whatever God commands of man, man must be able to accomplish. However, the Bible does not teach that man, in his fallen estate, can do anything that pleases God. Rather it teaches that an unregenerate sinner cannot submit himself to the law of God (Rom. 8:7-8). Not only this, but man is also unwilling to turn from his sin. John is illustrative of this point:
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. - John 3:19 (ESV)
What John is saying is that despite the Word incarnate entering the world and exposing its sin, people still “loved darkness rather than light” and refused to turn from their wicked ways. Man is thus both
slave to his sin and
in love with his sin. He is
unable and
unwilling to love God and submit to his law.
No, that is not true. Why would you resort to interpreting the verse this way when we already know that God wants all people to repent from Acts 17:30?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
He indicated to them that God is patient with them but then also explained that He is patient with everyone because He doesn't want anyone to perish. Did all of the English Bible translators get this wrong in your view when they translated it to say He doesn't want anyone to perish and wants everyone (all) to come to repentance? All of the English translations translate it that way so did they all get it wrong?
Please explain to me why God's patience is even necessary at all if it's entirely up to Him as to who repents or not.
It is helpful to examine the content of 1 Peter 3:1-7 as we make our way to verse 9. In the first seven verses, Peter tells his audience to “remember the predictions of the holy prophets” (v2) so that they will be wary of the “scoffers” (v3) who mock at the “promise of his [Christ’s] coming” (v4). Peter reminds them that the scoffers overlook the fact that God created the world (v5) and judged the world with a flood (v6) and that the same God now sustains the heavens and the earth till the day of judgment (v7).
In verse 8, Peter tells the “beloved”, who are the audience of both of his letters (see 2 Peter 3:1 and 1 Peter 1:1), that God is not bound by time and that the pace of history is under his sovereign control. For what reason does the Lord then wait to return? Here are Peter’s words:
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. - 2 Peter 3:8-9 (ESV)
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise to return (v4) but is patient toward “you” (second person plural), referring back to the “beloved” (v8) to whom the letter is written. Why is he patient? Because his desire is that none of the “beloved” should perish, but that all of them would come to repentance. In other words, the Lord is working out his redemptive will to save his elect and his waiting is a sign that there are yet still more who are to come to repentance, not that he has forgotten or abandoned his promise.
As to your final question, God has chosen who he will save (the elect), how he will save them (the Gospel), and when he will save them (in time). God is patient because he has chosen to work out his redemptive will in history rather than gathering the elect all at once. At this juncture I cannot answer more than it is God’s will that it be this way.
But you quoted a verse saying no one seeks God. Yet, Isaiah says people should seek Him while He may be found. What is your explanation for that?
Let me remind the audience that I quoted Romans 3:9-12, which states that “no one seeks for God” (v11). In Isaiah 55:6, the prophet gives an imperative “Seek the Lord while he may be found”. How can Isaiah exhort man to seek the Lord while Paul states that no one seeks for God and that no can submit to the law (imperatives!) of God? If we assume that “ought implies can”, we have a contradiction in the text (see above for my response to that proposition). Instead, we must acknowledge that God’s commands are not conditioned on man’s capacities or his will. God commands as he wills. Man’s responsibility is not endangered by God’s sovereignty, though the two are held in tension throughout Scripture.
Again, you pointed out a verse that says no one seeks God and, yet, people are expected to seek Him while He may be found and He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. Please explain your understanding of the difference between Romans 3:9-12 and the Isaiah 55:6-7 and Hebrews 11:6 passages.
Also, show me where it says in Isaiah 55 or Hebrews 11 that only certain people can seek God while He may be found.
I addressed some of this in my partial quote above. Also, it was never my assertion that Isaiah 55 or Hebrews 11 claim that “only certain people can seek God”. I quoted Hebrews 11:6 to demonstrate that faith is something that pleases God in support of my argument that original sin incapacitates man to do that which pleases God (Rom. 8:7-8), including expressing saving faith.
How are you coming to this conclusion? Does 1 John 2:1-2 not make it abundantly clear that He died for the sins of the whole world, which would mean all people? With that in mind, why would John 12:32 not be speaking of the whole world?
I thought I explained how I came to that conclusion.
The text of 1 John:
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. - 1 John 2:1-2 (ESV)
I am curious to know, so that I can better inform my response, if you believe that Christ’s death atoned for the sins of every individual person who has ever lived. I do not suspect you to be a universalist, so I am asking to see how you understand the extent of the atonement here in 1 John.
Actually, all theology teaches this, but that is the nature of man apart from any knowledge of God's law and of sin. But, what about when man becomes aware of God's word and His expectations and aware of what sin is? Jesus draws all people to Himself but His drawing can be resisted.
Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
The word for “draw” is not used in Acts 7:51. The question of whether “drawing” can be resisted would depend on our understanding of the two places in the text where it has soteriological application (John 6:44; 12:32). I think that the text of John 6 indicates that this drawing is effectual to salvation since the result is that those who are drawn are raised up on the last day.
Let's start with Acts 17:30-31. You acknowledge that it speaks of God commanding literally all people everywhere to repent, right? So, with that in mind, how can it be that God would command some people to repent who are not even able to repent?
I believe that the call of the Gospel is to repent and believe (Mk. 1:15). All who hear this call have received a divine command and are responsible for their choice. However, man’s inability and unwillingness to submit to God’s law means that he will reject the Gospel imperatives every time except when the Spirit quickens him to life (Eph. 2:1-9) and makes him able and willing to receive Christ by faith. As stated above, I do not believe that man’s inability and unwillingness to obey these commands make God unjust.
You don't fully understand it, so that's your cop out explanation. You don't understand why God would create people solely for the purpose of them being tormented for eternity, so you just say that's just the way it is. Nonsense! Scripture says "God is love" (1 John 4:8). How can that be true if God purposely creates some people to suffer for eternity? That would mean God is partially love and partially hate.
A little more grace, please! I have tried to be kind and generous in this discussion, which I truly have enjoyed. I do not hate you for your different views and I hope you do not think the same of me.
1 John 4:8 is not saying that God is
only love. God is not composed of parts. He is all of his perfections all of the time. That means that God is love and just simultaneously and eternally. His love and his justice are not competing values but part of his indivisible divine nature.
As for reprobation, Paul lays out a difficult truth:
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? - Rom. 9:19-24 (ESV)
Yes, it absolutely does. How can it not be a valid excuse to not repent and not believe in Christ if you don't have the ability to do so? That would clearly be an excuse. You have no explanation for that.
Do you think it would make sense for me to be punished for eternity for not lifting 100,000 pounds over my head? I'm simply unable to do that. So, I should be punished for that?
I have addressed some of this above. As to your example, do you wish to be made able to lift 100,000 pounds over your head? Though, honestly, I am not sure how valid analogies like this are.
Right, but scripture teaches that man does not have any excuse for not glorifying God and being thankful to Him. What does that mean to you? Since man has no excuse for that then what is the reason for His stubborn refusal to believe and what is the reason that man is punished for not believing?
To the first question, man’s refusal to believe is rooted in his fallen nature. To the second question, man is punished not merely for his unbelief, which is a sin, but for all sins, original and actual, which he refuses to acknowledge and turn from.
