Titus 2:11 demonstrates free will for "everyone".

FreeGrace2 said:

Your comments shows that you really don't grasp my example. Yes, those who hold the gun and cause murder SHOULD BE blamed and punished. Where do you get the notion that they are 'not to be blamed'?? That really makes no sense.

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It is not my notion, but yours, saying that if God is the original cause of all things, then he is the primary cause of sin, and therefore, means to that end are irrelevant. You are saying that Calvinism taken to its logical end shows God to be at blame for sin. I am showing you are wrong, just as you admit the gun manufacturer is not to blame for murders.

Spiritual Jew said:

No one has any excuse for not believing in God, glorifying Him as God and being thankful to Him. Would you agree?

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Paul says they have no excuse. And he says they were not "thankful" > Romans chapter one.

So, then, the question is, how can you be without excuse if something can't be expected from you?

If free will is correct, you have no excuse because of how you yourself have the ability.

If it is all about grace, there is no excuse to stay wrong. Because God is able.

com7fy8 said:

Do humans have the ability to accept salvation? Yes, if God gives them the ability.

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Spiritual Jew said:

Is there any reason to think anyone does not have that ability in light of the fact that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and in light of the fact that God wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9), wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:32) wants all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6)?

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He God is not willing that anyone should perish. And 1 Timothy 2:1-4 tells us to pray for any and all people, because God desires that all be saved.

But . . . I would think such ability to accept salvation would come out the same way in each person . . . if we all really are equal . . . versus most people refusing, though not all.

Spiritual Jew said:

Satan can't do anything without people's cooperation. He can't force anyone to reject salvation just as God does not force anyone to accept it.

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I note that this is not a question.

But I find that people give in to Satan and seem to not even know they are doing so.

Plus, ones can choose to make some gesture of getting saved, but then not do what God's word says is included in Christianity. So, have they really chosen salvation, then?

com7fy8 said:

Yes, Jesus did spend time with sinners and call them to repent. But does this automatically mean He considered them capable of obeying Him?

He does say,

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" > in John 6:44.

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He also said this:

John 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

To answer your question, of course it automatically means He considered them capable of obeying Him. Surely, Jesus does not play games with people by calling them to repent when they are not even able to do so, wouldn't you agree?

Because He cares about sinners. But He is displeased with how they are.

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The only reason He could be displeased with how they are is that He wants them to repent but they refuse to do so. They choose to reject Him rather than Him creating them in such a way that they couldn't help but to reject Him.

Isaiah 66:1
Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

com7fy8 said:

Yes, Jesus has been offered to the world.

But not all benefit from this the way we could. But every human does get blessed somehow > as it says, "especially of those who believe." (in 1 Timothy 4:10)

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I don't believe that is what 1 Timothy 4:10 means. I believe it means the same thing that 1 John 2:2 means, which is that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and His shed blood is the only means by which someone can be saved. His death and resurrection provided the means for all people to be saved with the condition that they must believe in him in order to do so. And there's no basis for thinking that anyone is incapable of doing so.

So, He is the Savior of all people in the sense that He is the only One who can save people and the only hope for anyone to be saved, but He is especially the Savior of those who believe because they belong to Him.

So, for us, then, whether we believe in free will or whatever > if we pray and bless the way God wants, His grace goes out to benefit every one, somehow. And our example can help anyone . . . however God blesses. And how God truly blesses can not be forced on anyone, in any case.

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What good is His grace and blessing to someone if they don't have the opportunity for eternal life and instead will spend eternity in torment? No, 1 Timothy 4:10 is not about God's blessings short of salvation. It's about God offering salvation and eternal life to all people through His Son.

com7fy8 said:

He God is not willing that anyone should perish. And 1 Timothy 2:1-4 tells us to pray for any and all people, because God desires that all be saved.

But . . . I would think such ability to accept salvation would come out the same way in each person . . . if we all really are equal . . . versus most people refusing, though not all.

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I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean here. Can you please elaborate? Clearly, not all people are the same.

If God desires for all to be saved then don't you think He would ensure that all people would have a legitimate opportunity to be saved? Absolutely, He would. How could it even be true that He wants all people to be saved and at the same time made it so that not all people could be? That would be contradictory.

com7fy8 said:

Paul says they have no excuse. And he says they were not "thankful" > Romans chapter one.

So, then, the question is, how can you be without excuse if something can't be expected from you?

If free will is correct, you have no excuse because of how you yourself have the ability.

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Exactly. Notice that Romans 1:18 starts out by talking about the wrath of God being revealed against the godlessness and wickedness of the people Paul was talking about. Why else would God be angry except that people had the ability to glorify Him and be thankful to Him but chose to be wicked instead?

If it is all about grace, there is no excuse to stay wrong. Because God is able.

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It's neither all about grace nor all about someone having the ability. It's about both. Because of God's grace we have the opportunity to be saved. He didn't have to do that, but He did it because He is love (1 John 4:8). It's in His character to do so. But, we are responsible to respond to His gracious offer of salvation with repentance and faith.

FreeGrace2 said:

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appears and offers salvation to everyone.

OK, Calvinists, please explain how this verse doesn't demonstrate free will.

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In Titus 2:1-10, Paul describes several different groups of people whom he exhorts to "teach what accords with sound doctrine" (v1). These groups include older men (v2), older women (v3), young women (v4), husbands (v4), children (v4), younger men (v6), bondservants (v9), and masters (v9).

Paul uses this context to lay the foundation for verse 11: "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people". Paul uses the conjunction to connect and explain what he has said in the first 10 verses to what follows; namely, that the Gospel is not restricted to one group, class, role, or kind of person but has been revealed to all people without distinction.

I do not think that Paul has in mind any notion of "free will" in this passage. That Paul uses the phrase the "grace of God" implies that there is no merit or response on man's part which can bring about salvation. He merely states that salvation is offered freely (graciously), but says nothing of a universal capacity or desire to receive the offer.

Spiritual Jew said:

To answer your question, of course it automatically means He considered them capable of obeying Him. Surely, Jesus does not play games with people by calling them to repent when they are not even able to do so, wouldn't you agree?

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no

It looks to me as though ones were not choosing to do what is good, because they did not have the character to do so.

Doesn't your character have a lot to do with what you are capable of choosing????

God cannot choose to do evil. Because He has the character not to choose evil.

God "cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt any man." (in James 1:13)

So, for us humans, our character more or less dictates what we are capable of choosing.

So, then, how does one repent, if one does not have the heart to do so? Ones heart is "deceitful" and "desperately wicked," after all > Jeremiah 17:9.

What I get is that when Jesus speaks something, God brings it to pass . . . like when Jesus spoke for the raging wind and sea to be still, and all became so calm. It was not the nature of the nature to stop raging, but God's word was spoken and then accomplished that >

"'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
. It shall not return to Me void,
. But it shall accomplish what I please,
. And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .(Isaiah 55:11)

@FreeGrace2 > So, yes God offers salvation, but also His word is commanding salvation, and then His word accomplishes this, according to what I see through Isaiah 55:11.

God's word, then, accomplishes what He speaks, I see from this. He speaks and He changes the person to repent the way He Himself means. Or else, there is no telling what you are going to get, considering how we humans can make our own choices. It is only possible with God. And yes Jesus does say it is "impossible with men" > Luke 18:27. So, whether this is logical or fair or not is not the point; what God does is the only thing which can work. It is not logical and not fair to expect humans to get ourselves to do what is impossible with humans.

"Therefore submit to God." > this means how God's word works in us (1 Thessalonians 2:13) to to have us personally submit to God in us > in James 4:7.

Spiritual Jew said:

Jesus called unbelieving sinners to repent, not believers.

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Yet repentance is something God must grant to man which leads to forgiveness of sins, life and to a knowledge of the truth.

Acts 5:31
God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

Acts 11:8
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2 Timothy 2:25
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

hope this helps !!!

FreeGrace2 said:

Please share any verse that specifically and clearly says that Christ's death was for either:
1. a specific group of people
2. not for everyone

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"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

Oh, wait a minute > this does not say for only certain people.

FreeGrace2 said:

I never brought up anything about "desire". That is irrelevant. The point is that God's saving grace has been brought or offrered to everyone.

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I think there is more to this, though.

God is almighty. His grace is not only offered, but almighty to get His result better than what humans can get ourselves to do, plus we can not, then . . . really . . . choose what His grace will do, but we discover how we become because of what He does.

So, a self-produced, self-willed sort of human repentance won't do. We need the "gift" of how God's grace has a person repent > "it is the gift of God" (in Ephesians 2:8) The disciples say God "granted" "repentance to life" > Acts 11:18. They did not make themselves truly repent, but God changed them from being "dead" (Ephesians 3:1) to being alive. And Jesus sent Paul to turn people "from the power of Satan to God" > Acts 26:18. Ones are turned, they do not turn their own selves, in repenting. Repenting includes changing from Satan's kingdom "to God".

A human in sin is worked-in by "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," our Apostle Paul says, in Ephesians 2:2. Such a person can not tell which is the Holy Spirit to turn to!! Only God is able to change a human to Himself >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

Being joined to Jesus is part of what happens in Biblical repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10), so each of us has become "one spirit with Him." I will offer to you > no human is capable of making this happen, by oneself.

com7fy8 said:

Spiritual Jew said:

To answer your question, of course it automatically means He considered them capable of obeying Him. Surely, Jesus does not play games with people by calling them to repent when they are not even able to do so, wouldn't you agree?

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no

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So, you believe that God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9) but at the same time you believe that not all people can repent? That does not make any sense because that means you think that God wants some people to repent who are not even able to do so. That makes God look like a fool.

No, this can't be. If God wants all people to repent then it only follows that all people can repent. To think otherwise defies all logic.

Yesha said:

In Titus 2:1-10, Paul describes several different groups of people whom he exhorts to "teach what accords with sound doctrine" (v1). These groups include older men (v2), older women (v3), young women (v4), husbands (v4), children (v4), younger men (v6), bondservants (v9), and masters (v9).

Paul uses this context to lay the foundation for verse 11: "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people". Paul uses the conjunction to connect and explain what he has said in the first 10 verses to what follows; namely, that the Gospel is not restricted to one group, class, role, or kind of person but has been revealed to all people without distinction.

I do not think that Paul has in mind any notion of "free will" in this passage. That Paul uses the phrase the "grace of God" implies that there is no merit or response on man's part which can bring about salvation. He merely states that salvation is offered freely (graciously), but says nothing of a universal capacity or desire to receive the offer.

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I disagree completely. Other scripture says that God wants literally all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6) so there's no reason to think that salvation would not be offered to all people.

If salvation is entirely up to God, as you believe, then there would be no such things as salvation being offered to anyone. An offer implies that someone can choose to either accept it or reject it. Instead, in Calvinism, salvation is given to people without people having any choice in the matter.

FreeGrace2 said:

There is nothing in v.1-10 that would limit "all people" in v.11 to less than everyone. Scholars have translated it "everyone" for a reason.

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I think that is the point I am trying to make. The “all people” of verse 11 follows upon the exhortation of verses 1-10. We are not to limit the teaching of “sound doctrine” to those within some particular or favored group. The Gospel is to be proclaimed freely to all people without regard to any individual or group distinctives.

FreeGrace2 said:

Right. ALL people, without restriction. Not "some people", or "most people", or anything else.

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Yes!

FreeGrace2 said:

Please share any verse that specifically and clearly says that Christ's death was for either:

1. a specific group of people
2. not for everyone

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The discourse in John 10 is helpful.


Jesus says that he (the good shepherd) lays down his life for the sheep (v11, 15). At this point, it is wise to pause and carefully reflect on this simple statement. That Jesus lays down his life “for the sheep” implies that those who are not his sheep are not benefactors of his atoning death. He dies for his sheep only. And who are the sheep?


The sheep are those who “hear my voice” (v27), receive eternal life (v28), never perish (v28), are secure in his hand (v28), and who the Father has given to the Son (v29).

What is more is that Jesus explains the unbelief of his audience in verses 25-26. Notice that Jesus does not say that “you are not among my sheep because you do not believe”. He says, “you do not believe because you are not among my sheep”. In other words, only those who belong to Jesus, who have been given him by the Father, will come to saving faith.

Synthesizing these pieces together, I conclude that Jesus died for his sheep only (v11, 15), securing for them all the benefits of saving grace (v27-29). Those who do not believe are not of his fold (v25-26) and do not receive these benefits.

FreeGrace2 said:

I never brought up anything about "desire". That is irrelevant. The point is that God's saving grace has been brought or offrered to everyone.

That is my point, as well as the point of Titus 2:11.

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But the fact that God’s saving grace is proclaimed to everyone without distinction does not prove “free will”. It proves that the proclamation itself is gracious.

Spiritual Jew said:

I disagree completely. Other scripture says that God wants literally all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6) so there's no reason to think that salvation would not be offered to all people.

If salvation is entirely up to God, as you believe, then there would be no such things as salvation being offered to anyone. An offer implies that someone can choose to either accept it or reject it. Instead, in Calvinism, salvation is given to people without people having any choice in the matter.

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I never stated in my post that salvation is not offered to all people. My argument is that Titus 2:11 provides the basis for proclaiming the gospel to all people without distinction and that its content does not establish a doctrine of free will, which is the topic under discussion. Paul is not speaking here of man's free will but of God's free grace.

When you say that an "offer implies that someone can choose to either accept it or reject it", how would you reconcile that with Romans 8:7-8? If salvation comes through faith, but faith is something that pleases God (Heb. 11:6), how can a sinner who is hostile to God and unable to please God do precisely that which pleases God by expressing saving faith?

Jesus is YHWH said:

Yet repentance is something God must grant to man which leads to forgiveness of sins, life and to a knowledge of the truth.

Acts 5:31
God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

Acts 11:8
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2 Timothy 2:25
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

hope this helps !!!

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You are misinterpreting those verses just like you misinterpret so many others. Why are you so willing to interpret verses like these in such a way that contradicts other scripture?

If God made some people repent and not others (which is what you think those verses are saying) then it couldn't be true that He wants all people everywhere to repent even though that is exactly what is taught in Acts 17:30-31 and 2 Peter 3:9.

Acts 5:31 is talking about all of Israel and Acts 11:18 is referring to all Gentiles. Obviously, not all Israelites repent and not all Gentiles repent, so those verses can't possibly mean what you think they mean.

So many people interpret scripture to mean what they want it to mean in order to support their false doctrines. You draw conclusions from these verses while completely disregarding other passages. That is not the proper way to interpret scripture. Each verse must be interpreted in such a way as to not contradict any other scripture.

Taking all of scripture into consideration, it should be easy to see that what verses like those are saying is that God grants the opportunity to repent to all people. Not just to all of the Israelites but also to all of the Gentiles as well. That is what those verses are saying and this interpretation does not contradict any other scripture as your interpretation does.

In case you try to say that God doesn't want literally all people to repent, it can easily be shown that He does.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

The people that God wants to repent are the same people that He has set a day to judge. We know that even believers will all stand before Christ to give account of ourselves (Romans 14:10-12), so we know that literally all people will be judged one day. Therefore, God commands literally all people to repent. He wouldn't command and desire for all people to repent (2 Peter 3:9) if not all people had the ability to repent.

Yesha said:

I never stated in my post that salvation is not offered to all people. My argument is that Titus 2:11 provides the basis for proclaiming the gospel to all people without distinction and that its content does not establish a doctrine of free will, which is the topic under discussion. Paul is not speaking here of man's free will but of God's free grace.

When you say that an "offer implies that someone can choose to either accept it or reject it", how would you reconcile that with Romans 8:7-8?

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God has made Himself known to all people by what He has made. Just read Romans 1:18-32. The very type of people that you think are unable to accept God's offer of salvation have no excuse to not believe in God and to glorify Him and be thankful to Him. So, if they are expected to glorify Him as God and be thankful to Him, how can it be that they can't also recognize that He is calling them to repent of their sins and put their faith in Christ? The doctrine of total depravity is completely destroyed by passages like Romans 1:18-32.

If salvation comes through faith, but faith is something that pleases God (Heb. 11:6), how can a sinner who is hostile to God and unable to please God do precisely that which pleases God by expressing saving faith?

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The same way that a sinner is expected to believe in God, glorify Him as God and be thankful to Him without having any excuse for not doing so (Romans 1:18-32).