Penal Substitution ... is it biblical?

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The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it.

Questions ... and pose some questions of your own as well.

It is said .... the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus who committed no sin ... who was completely innocent .... is that justice?

Was salvation made possible through justice or through Love?

As always please provide scripture.

PSA is the most biblical view of the atonement. Jesus suffered the wrath of the Triune God as a representative of sinners so that all who are in Christ are accounted both to have suffered for sin and to have his righteousness. Jesus' sufferings and his righteousness are credited to those who belong to him in the same way that Adam's sin is credited to those who are "in Adam".
 
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...through Love?
...

I would say through love, because Jesus had the right to forgive sins even before his death.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25
 
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childeye 2

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The son was always the son. The union never changed. It was only the communion. This is not indicative of how we are with God. We start off as enemies. We are as children of wrath. We are adopted into the God’s family. So using that parable to make a point it was never intended to make fails is taking it out of context.
For the sake of the True Gospel which I deeply desire to serve, I am going to take the time to explain in greater depth my view of the issue. I am dealing with the semantics that form in my/our psycholinguistics from two different perspectives of right/wrong, and good/bad, so as to obtain an objective view. Please allow me to elaborate a bit further. We all reason upon fundamental dichotomies of good/bad, true/false, Light/dark, positive/negative. In addition to that, I am also aware that propaganda/subversion or falsehood is therefore meant to change what is in reality a positive into a negative, which is the same as changing a true negative into a false positive.

For example, the prodigal son views staying in his Father's house as 'bad' in some degree when he is motivated to leave the Fathers house. He therefore has his hopes in that which is outside his Father's house even though he does not know what is out there. It is therefore a judgment made out of darkness/blindness. When he learns the Truth obviously his view changes, so that he now sees things as 'good' in his Father's house and 'bad' outside his Father's house, and likewise his hope which was formed in a darkness is now become reversed in that he now hopes that he may be accepted back into his Father's house, which is now formed in the Light of knowledge and which also motivates his return. Here I must take time to note that the overarching dichotomy that defined the good and bad in his psycholinguistics was the imagery he held of his Father, which in a positive and negative dichotomy is articulated clearly as trustworthy or untrustworthy.

In the same way it is our imagery of God that defines the good and bad and the positive and negative in our psycholinguistics, which in turn will constitute what is the Light and darkness in our souls. To corroborate this, we can see in scripture that the serpent Satan, presents to mankind a false image of god which portrays God as A Tyrant Master who lies and uses the fear of death as a means to keep them from ascertaining what would make them His equal. This imagery promotes an untrustworthy image of god, again similar to the prodigal son, which is formed out of darkness/blindness, which then motivates disobedience perceiving disobedience as a good thing that in the end will improve their stature.

In contrast I see that there is also in scripture the Image of God that is sent by God, Who is the Christ. This image is not A Tyrant Master, but is A Servant Master image, an exact opposite in perspectives. The telltale differences are found in the semantics that occur in the term 'sacrifice' which changes from a positive to a negative and visa versa according to the imagery. It is clearly articulated as the tyrant master would sacrifice all others to save himself while the Servant Master would sacrifice himself to save all others. Hence the image of the Master that is the servant is counted as trustworthy, while the corrupt image of a tyrant is counted as untrustworthy. Which is why I also read about two images of God/god in scripture here: 2 Corinthians 4:4, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

In view of this I can see that if I hold the servant image, I also have a heavenly or positive prejudice towards others that will see and love others as myself so as to serve others as I would want to be served. In contrast I can see that the worldly image of a Tyrant God forms a negative prejudice that results in a do it to them before they do it to you mentality. I believe that the worldly and false image presented in the garden of God causes people to see others in classes of stature, where being the boss of everyone else is a 'good thing' and being the servant to everyone else is a 'bad thing'. This is clearly seen in the image of the Christ who says that the 'greatest' is the one who serves the rest. Hence our imagery of God/god defines our terms.

Please reconsider my use of the story of the Prodigal son. The points I am trying to make in this story is for one, that there is rejoicing in heaven over one sinner that repents. And I'm also saying that the same Godly sorrow required to cause the prodigal son to sincerely repent, is a product of the sinner seeing how and why he was wrong about how he viewed his Father which motivated the sin in the first place. And as this is the case with all sin, this is not a type of repentance that would come through a fear of the wrath of God which points to a tyrant. Therefore I am saying that a true and lasting repentance is motivated by the revelation of the goodness of God and not by the wrath of God. Wherefore I conclude that the knowledge of God referred to in the bible, is the knowledge of His Person which defines what is meant by His Character as being Holy.

Moreover, I'm saying that the sinner is like a lost sheep, and that we are like the sick who need a doctor to heal us. Therefore, when I read scripture that Jesus bore our sins such as is implied in Isaiah 53, I am viewing it as he suffered the injustice of the world and forgave the injustice saying "forgive them they know not what they do". This is a bearing of sin as in showing forbearance or being longsuffering towards us, even enduring a cross of torture to that end. To me this is the Love of God towards us, whom if we emulate his Spirit, we would also carry the burden of our own cross in the same manner of love. It's similar to the sentiment in these scriptures: "Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
Matthew 10:38,
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

As I said, I believe that many terms in scripture reverse in meaning according to one's image of god/God. For the sake of more clarity please allow me to present a parable that I believe speaks to both the 'pity' of God and the 'anger' of God.
Matthew 18:23-34
23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

For the purpose of understanding where I'm coming from, I would like to say with some humility, that I've studied psycholinguistics most of my life. In propaganda this is all easily obscured when articulated as 'justice' according to the law. This is why I said that I believe mercy is greater than justice. It would also be prudent to point out that scripture says that no flesh will be justified by the law, but only by faith/trust/belief in the servant God image that is Jesus the Christ.

In summation it is my view, that when we change the suffering of the cross from an act meant to display the extent of God's loving mercy, to an act meant to display the extent of God's wrath, we by implication change a positive into a negative. In doing so, what is actually forgiveness becomes a penalty of payment due, and what is a merciful God becomes a vindictive god. And finally, by implication I also believe we are projecting whether we hold to be true an image of god/God that is a Tyrant Master presented by Satan, or A Servant Master presented by God. As such, I would teach my children that we are all sinners and are vulnerable to temptation through the lusts of the flesh. However, I would never teach my children that God is a type of person who says that we deserve to be stripped naked, mocked, scorned, beaten, flogged, and nailed to a cross to slowly die in the most excruciating agony, but the good news (Gospel) is that Jesus took it instead.
 
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truthisfreedom2019

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God is just. Jesus suffered for us because He and his father (God) are just and merciful. Jesus did not suffer because of us but he chose to suffer for us out of love (love for God and for us). Through his teachings and his works, Jesus has established justice.
  • 11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters the flock. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own, and My own know Me, 15 just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it back. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it back. This commandment I received from My Father.” John 10:11-15,17-18


Here are a few more verses on the topic to think about:
  • 17 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. 18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;... 1 Peter 3:17-18
Jesus even brought justice to those who had died beforehand:
  • ...19 in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. 1 Peter 3:18-22
  • 1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because the one who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human lusts, but for the will of God. 3 For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of indecent behavior, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties, and wanton idolatries. 4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them in the same excesses of debauchery, and they slander you; 5 but they will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as people, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. 1 Peter 4:1-6
 
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Jamdoc

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Wanted to comment on your phrase, "sin leads to death".
Adam's sin already got us there. We are spiritually dead at birth. We find our spiritual life in Christ.

Romans 7:9
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
a very young infant or fetus in the womb or very young child that doesn't know right and wrong yet isn't spiritually dead yet. Spiritual death comes when they understand right and wrong and choose wrong, they sin. That is spiritual death.
 
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bling

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The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it.

Questions ... and pose some questions of your own as well.

It is said .... the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus who committed no sin ... who was completely innocent .... is that justice?

Was salvation made possible through justice or through Love?

As always please provide scripture.
This is a huge topic and I could write a book on it.

If God forgives your sins 100% (Love) then there is nothing left to be paid and if Christ paid for your sins 100% (justice) then there is nothing to forgive, so which is it, since it cannot be 200%?

We can start very logically:

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

1 Timothy 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time

Heb. 9: 15…now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Revelation 5:9 They sing a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God saints from every tribe and language and people and nation;

1 Peter 1:18 You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold,

We hopeful are in agreement:

1. Jesus life is the unbelievable huge ransom payment?

2. The ransom payment was made to set children free to go to the Kingdom and be with the Father?

3. Deity (Jesus and God both) made this unbelievable huge payment?

4. All these fit perfectly a ransom scenario?

5. The scripture is not describing Jesus’ cruel torturous death on the cross as being like a ransom payment, but as being a ransom payment?

6. This was all done for “many” and “God’s saints” in some way and in other ways for “all” people?

You may have a problem with “6”, but I am just quoting scripture.

Peter even help us out more by contrasting the unbelievable huge payment of Christ to just a payment of silver and gold. Who might take silver and gold, so a kidnapping scenario can be a good analogy for Peter?

Try just this small part of it:

There is this unbelievable huge “ransom payment” being made: Jesus, Peter, Paul, John and the author of Hebrews all describe it as an actual ransom scenario and not just “like a ransom scenario”. And we can all agree on: the payment being Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder, the Payer being God/Christ, the child being set free (sinners going to God), but have a problem with: “Who is the kidnapper”? If there is no kidnapper than there is no ransom scenario, so who is the kidnapper?

Some people try to make God the receiver of the payment, which calls God the undeserving criminal kidnapper of His own children, which is crazy.

Some people say satan is the kidnapper, but that would mean God is paying satan when God has the power to safely take anything from satan, so it would be wrong for God to pay satan.

Some say it is an intangible like death, evil, sin, or nothing, but you would not pay a huge payment to an intangible and they are not kidnappers you can “blame”.

There is one very likely kidnapper and that is the person holding a child back from entering the Kingdom to be with God. When we go to the nonbeliever, we are not trying to convince them of an idea, a book, a doctrine or theology, but to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified (which is described as the ransom payment). If the nonbeliever accepts the ransom payment (Jesus Christ) there is a child released to go to the Father, but if the nonbeliever refuses to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified a child is kept out of the Kingdom. Does this all sounds very much like a kidnapping scenario?

Yes, Christ is the ransom payment for all, but the kidnapper can accept or reject the payment. If the kidnapper rejects this unbelievable huge payment, the payers of the ransom are going to be upset with that kidnapper.

There is a lot more to say about this, but this is an introduction.
 
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childeye 2

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  • 1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because the one who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
I find this to be a very appropriate scripture along with the rest of your post. What is the purpose? When it says that we should suffer in the flesh as Jesus did, I see the purpose as carrying our own cross wherein we bear with other people's sins and iniquities yet forgive them their trespasses against us.

Despite the suffering it causes us, we do not resort to wrath and seek payment or penalty for compensation. After all Jesus suffered so sins could be forgiven. It makes perfect sense to me that when we suffer the sins of others, our lust becomes undesirable through the same empathy that does not want to cause others to suffer for our sin. The suffering we endure in affect destroys the lusts of the flesh and causes us to cease from sin, and all through being crucified with Christ. No wonder that righteousness is by grace through faith and not by the works of the law. It therefore seems to me that this particular scripture can be directly related to how we are saved from God's wrath in these scriptures:

Ephesians 2:3,
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Romans 5:9,
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

Galatians 5:2-4,
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatians 2:20,
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 1:17,
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:25,
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 3:21-23,
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
 
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childeye 2

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This is a huge topic and I could write a book on it.

If God forgives your sins 100% (Love) then there is nothing left to be paid and if Christ paid for your sins 100% (justice) then there is nothing to forgive, so which is it, since it cannot be 200%?

We can start very logically:

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

1 Timothy 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time

Heb. 9: 15…now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Revelation 5:9 They sing a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God saints from every tribe and language and people and nation;

1 Peter 1:18 You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold,

We hopeful are in agreement:

1. Jesus life is the unbelievable huge ransom payment?

2. The ransom payment was made to set children free to go to the Kingdom and be with the Father?

3. Deity (Jesus and God both) made this unbelievable huge payment?

4. All these fit perfectly a ransom scenario?

5. The scripture is not describing Jesus’ cruel torturous death on the cross as being like a ransom payment, but as being a ransom payment?

6. This was all done for “many” and “God’s saints” in some way and in other ways for “all” people?

You may have a problem with “6”, but I am just quoting scripture.

Peter even help us out more by contrasting the unbelievable huge payment of Christ to just a payment of silver and gold. Who might take silver and gold, so a kidnapping scenario can be a good analogy for Peter?

Try just this small part of it:

There is this unbelievable huge “ransom payment” being made: Jesus, Peter, Paul, John and the author of Hebrews all describe it as an actual ransom scenario and not just “like a ransom scenario”. And we can all agree on: the payment being Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder, the Payer being God/Christ, the child being set free (sinners going to God), but have a problem with: “Who is the kidnapper”? If there is no kidnapper than there is no ransom scenario, so who is the kidnapper?

Some people try to make God the receiver of the payment, which calls God the undeserving criminal kidnapper of His own children, which is crazy.

Some people say satan is the kidnapper, but that would mean God is paying satan when God has the power to safely take anything from satan, so it would be wrong for God to pay satan.

Some say it is an intangible like death, evil, sin, or nothing, but you would not pay a huge payment to an intangible and they are not kidnappers you can “blame”.

There is one very likely kidnapper and that is the person holding a child back from entering the Kingdom to be with God. When we go to the nonbeliever, we are not trying to convince them of an idea, a book, a doctrine or theology, but to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified (which is described as the ransom payment). If the nonbeliever accepts the ransom payment (Jesus Christ) there is a child released to go to the Father, but if the nonbeliever refuses to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified a child is kept out of the Kingdom. Does this all sounds very much like a kidnapping scenario?

Yes, Christ is the ransom payment for all, but the kidnapper can accept or reject the payment. If the kidnapper rejects this unbelievable huge payment, the payers of the ransom are going to be upset with that kidnapper.

There is a lot more to say about this, but this is an introduction.
What exactly is bondage under the law? Yeah the term 'ransom' definitely brings thoughts to mind of captives being set free through a payment to a captor. You said that God could simply take the power of death away from Satan, but how would that play out in the minds of the other angels? It might look like God breaking His own rules.

Scripture says there's a dragon waiting to devour the child destined to be King and we can see Satan entering Judas to betray Jesus. In the big picture I believe Satan administered the law and his crucifying Jesus according to the law was his undoing even as he condemned someone greater than himself..
 
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Saint Steven

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Romans 7:9

a very young infant or fetus in the womb or very young child that doesn't know right and wrong yet isn't spiritually dead yet. Spiritual death comes when they understand right and wrong and choose wrong, they sin. That is spiritual death.
We are spiritually dead because of Adam. (at birth) We then compound it by our own actions. I do not believe that we are born innocent. IMHO
 
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Saint Steven

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So that would deny the Trinity then?
Not at all.
Penal Substitution infers that Jesus the Son died to save us from God the Father. (easy fix)

Saint Steven said:
Penal Substitution infers that Jesus died to save us from God.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Not at all.
Penal Substitution infers that Jesus the Son died to save us from God the Father. (easy fix)

Saint Steven said:
Penal Substitution infers that Jesus died to save us from God.
It would kind of diminish the oneness of God though.

I could perhaps amend it further.

In the OT days the people were saying we don't want to be afraid of dying anymore, God the Father said, what you say is Good, then continued on with the prophecy of Jesus the prophet from among their brothers.

So Jesus didn't die to save us from the Father, but so we could interact with the Father in a loving relationship.

Jesus died so we didn't need to be afraid anymore.

Penal Substitution communicates: Yeah, you better be scared. So it's misguided in focus.
 
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mlepfitjw

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Wanted to comment on your phrase, "sin leads to death".
Adam's sin already got us there. We are spiritually dead at birth. We find our spiritual life in Christ.

I totally forgot about this Steven!
 
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Jamdoc

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We are spiritually dead because of Adam. (at birth) We then compound it by our own actions. I do not believe that we are born innocent. IMHO

Then explain how Paul was alive until knowledge of the law (that is knowledge of good and evil) made sin revive and he died?
I believe that we're born with a sin nature, and propensity to sin because of Adam, but we did not inherit his sin itself or his spiritual death itself.
Therefore I believe that young children who die, go to heaven, because they have not died spiritually yet.
Matthew 19:14
Otherwise, you want to try consoling a woman who's had a miscarriage that you believe her child is burning in hell forever?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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When Jesus spoke about the Father, was he talking about himself or someone else?
Jesus when He spoke of the Father said,

Father, may they be one as we are, I in you and you in me.

Jesus spoke of His Father.
 
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Saint Steven

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Otherwise, you want to try consoling a woman who's had a miscarriage that you believe her child is burning in hell forever?
That wouldn't be a problem for me. I don't believe in a forever burning hell.
 
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Jesus when He spoke of the Father said,

Father, may they be one as we are, I in you and you in me.

Jesus spoke of His Father.
Right. The godhead is three in one. There are three and they are one.
 
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mlepfitjw

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Then explain how Paul was alive until knowledge of the law (that is knowledge of good and evil) made sin revive and he died?
I believe that we're born with a sin nature, and propensity to sin because of Adam, but we did not inherit his sin itself or his spiritual death itself.
Therefore I believe that young children who die, go to heaven, because they have not died spiritually yet.
Matthew 19:14
Otherwise, you want to try consoling a woman who's had a miscarriage that you believe her child is burning in hell forever?

Hi Jamdoc, there is something interesting in the Genesis account when it comes how we see adam very close to God, only to be after sinning to be placed far away from God though he was still around.

You can see how much closer adam was before sin, so after sin, adam sent away can be seen a spiritual death.

Jesus Christ reinstated that closeness that Adam once had by repaying for the sin once caused. So the ability to have the holy spirit is even more easy to obtain today.

Just by faith, and believing. On the Lord Yeshua who came, died, and was risen again by God on the third day.

Your belief of young children going to heaven, nothing wrong with that at all that is a subjective belief, and I would agree because I believe everyone is going back to God regardless of what they have done though some may not desire to be close to him at all, and for those who want that will be granted it.
 
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Right. The godhead is three in one. There are three and they are one.
So stating that the Father is abusive, and Jesus is covering for Him means they are not one.
 
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