Penal Substitution ... is it biblical?

Hammster said:

But God is just, and the justifier.

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Dont forget the life giver, and life taker!

Also yes sin leads to death, we are all sinners, and are all going to die.

Though all people will be resurrected again.

Also there is sin that doesn't lead to death, let me remind you incase you have forgotten my brother, and friend in Lord Christ Yeshua.

1 John 5:17

All wicked actions are sin, but not every sin leads to death.

eleos1954 said:

The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it.

Questions ... and pose some questions of your own as well.

It is said .... the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus who committed no sin ... who was completely innocent .... is that justice?

Was salvation made possible through justice or through Love?

As always please provide scripture.

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Gambling is pretty bad, can never guess which shell the peanut is under.

Oh wait, we're talking about penal substitution.

I find the roman legal system or any human legal system is a parable, it's not the exact picture - and even less so than the creation parables if it's something man made.

I go with that passage that God can do immeasurably more than we can imagine or think and just wait and see.

Hammster said:

But God is just, and the justifier.

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Please consider the story of The Prodigal Son. In that story, there is one son who felt he could fare better outside his Father's house so he asked for his inheritance and left. In this he had sinned against his Father through unfaith. When the prodigal son decided to return, it was because he had learned the error of his ways. Therefore he was contrite in a sincere repentance brought about by knowledge of the Truth. Hoping in his Father's mercy that he would take him back as a lowly servant he set out. And when his Father saw him, he was not greeted by a Father that was eager to torture and kill him for a mistake made in ignorance, but rather his Father ran to him and embraced him in complete forgiveness and in a sincere joyfulness that he had returned.

eleos1954 said:

The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it.

Questions ... and pose some questions of your own as well.

It is said .... the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus who committed no sin ... who was completely innocent .... is that justice?

Was salvation made possible through justice or through Love?

As always please provide scripture.

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It's kinda the entire point of the new testament..
and was even foretold in the old testament.
Isaiah 53 is quite literally talking about how the Messiah would be a Penal substitution.

I honestly can't see how people who follow Judaism, cannot read Isaiah 53, and be told about Jesus
and not say "wow, Yeshua really was the Messiah"

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

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Some Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah because they thought the Messiah would fulfill the promises of restoring the Kingdom in His first coming, they didn't see the second coming, but if they opened their eyes to the prophecies they'd see that the Messiah MUST die and be resurrected. It stares them in the face

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

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It is so clear, that not only would the Messiah be killed, but WHY He would be killed, hundreds of years before Jesus was born those who studied the scriptures should have seen it.

and then the resurrection.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

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You can clearly see it again.. penal substitution, and, "prolong his days" is... the resurrection. Our theology is very literally based on God being satisfied with the atonement of Jesus so God resurrected Him. Without the resurrection, we'd have no basis of faith to declare that this was THE Christ foretold, because the reason why Jesus is THE Christ is because He has fulfilled Isaiah 53 in his death, burial, and resurrection.
it's as Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

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Isaiah 53 though... possibly the most beautiful chapter of the Old Testament.

Agallagher said:

God was pleased, as his son was crushed, is some where in the bible,

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KJV:
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

ESV:
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Shalom.

Jamdoc said:

I honestly can't see how people who follow Judaism, cannot read Isaiah 53, and be told about Jesus
and not say "wow, Yeshua really was the Messiah"

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Probably because as Paul wrote:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Shalom.

chad kincham said:

Probably because as Paul wrote:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Shalom.

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I can understand how it happens in Jesus' earthly ministry, like sometimes things are happening and you can't recognize how this is something written in the bible as it's happening, but hindsight is 20/20, so it's harder for me to understand how someone can read Isaiah and not recognize that Yeshua was the son of God, Yeshua was the promised messiah, and He was risen and will come back to fulfill all things written of Him.
Even a Roman Centurion seemed to recognize it after the fact, not even knowing the scriptures declared "Truly this was the Son of God" (Matthew 27:54)

eleos1954 said:

The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it.

Questions ... and pose some questions of your own as well.

It is said .... the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus who committed no sin ... who was completely innocent .... is that justice?

Was salvation made possible through justice or through Love?

As always please provide scripture.

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Are you concerned about Jesus who committed no sin who is judged wrongly by God the Father?

No. The God the Father has not judged wrongly. That is why it is written:

For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, -John 5:22

Why God the Father has committed all judgement to the Son ?
This is what we have heard:

"I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of Him who sent me. -John 5:30

You are asking: Was salvation made possible through justice or through Love?

This is what we have heard:
Faithfulness springs up from the ground, and righteousness looks down from the sky. -Psalms 85:11

Our justice or our righteousness is from the sky where we meet our Lord Jesus Christ.

For we have died with Christ through baptism, and our new life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our salvation appear, we who belong to Him will also appear with Him in glory. ( Colossians 3:3-4 )

We who have made ourselves ready for the marriage feast of the Lamb will rejoice when our Heavenly Bridegroom comes.

For we have heard:
Your steadfast love, O LORD, extends to the heavens, your faithfulness to the clouds. -Psalms 36:5

Yes, we trust in our Lord’s promise of love and the faithfulness of His love when we meet Him in the clouds.

There, we are found in His righteousness based on the faithfulness of His love, that is, righteousness from God.

For this is what we believe :
and be found in Him ( Christ ), not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith' -Philippians 3:9

eleos1954 said:

The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it.

Questions ... and pose some questions of your own as well.

It is said .... the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus who committed no sin ... who was completely innocent .... is that justice?

Was salvation made possible through justice or through Love?

As always please provide scripture.

Click to expand...

It is part of the way "transactions" happen or occur in Heaven, that's why the sacrificial system in the OT, but when the one, the only one, came, who was the only one who possibly could, etc, ever could, etc, pay for "all", and "all of it all for all time", etc, then that one did it for us, and did so fully well willingly, etc...

But then even that one was pardoned or forgiven also, etc, shown by the proof of the resurrection, etc, all revealing God's very great and truly loving and forgiving nature before all, etc... But also His justice/judgement first also, but also how His great mercy, love, etc, ultimately triumphs over it all in the end...

That even the scapegoat was even Himself or itself spared or saved, etc...

The scapegoat itself is innocent, but is considered guilty, and is not normally spared or saved, but in this instance He/it was, etc, and God was trying to show us all something by "both", etc...

Which is/was or might have been something having to do with His great justice/judgement first, but also how His great mercy, love, etc, triumphs over it all in the end, etc...

Trying to show us something in "both", by both allowing it to die and/or perish, but and then also, in also sparing it or bringing it back, or back to life in or by the end, etc...

This that He is or was trying to show us by this, I probably don't have "all of all about it all" all figured out yet, etc... But I do know that He (God) is trying to show us something by "both", etc, in both allowing it to perish or die, but then also in bringing it back also, etc...

Maybe others have some thoughts maybe in just what all exactly God is or was trying to show us by all of this maybe, etc...?

God Bless!

eleos1954 said:

The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it.

Questions ... and pose some questions of your own as well.

It is said .... the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus who committed no sin ... who was completely innocent .... is that justice?

Was salvation made possible through justice or through Love?

As always please provide scripture.

Click to expand...

We don’t fully understand what Christ went through being separated from God The Father for the first time in eternity.

eleos1954 said:

The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it.

Questions ... and pose some questions of your own as well.

It is said .... the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus who committed no sin ... who was completely innocent .... is that justice?

Was salvation made possible through justice or through Love?

As always please provide scripture.

Click to expand...

Jesus took all sins on himself, the "punishment" of sin if you will. Hard to know if the use many churches do of "penal substitution" is correct. Was it the Father punishing Jesus, or was the punishment a consequence of sin, like sin bearing death within itself?

eleos1954 said:

The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it.

Questions ... and pose some questions of your own as well.

It is said .... the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus who committed no sin ... who was completely innocent .... is that justice?

Was salvation made possible through justice or through Love?

As always please provide scripture.

Click to expand...

If God was only just and not love, He would not have bothered to send Jesus to take the punishment due to sinful man. If God was not just, no one would be punished for sin. However, salvation is much more than forgiveness. Sin killed the human race spiritually.

It's not "either/or". Love and justice are just two aspects of God's nature. The sacrifice of Jesus was the means to reconcile those aspects.
2 Corinthians 5:19
1 Timothy 2:4
John 3:16

As I understand it, the only thing that needed to be addressed by Christ was death, the consequence of sin. Christ is known as the second Adam because he came to address the death problem created by the first Adam. And in addressing that problem, all of humanity is saved.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

eleos1954 said:

The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it.

Questions ... and pose some questions of your own as well.

It is said .... the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus who committed no sin ... who was completely innocent .... is that justice?

Was salvation made possible through justice or through Love?

As always please provide scripture.

Click to expand...

Penal Substitution infers that Jesus died to save us from God.

We have already received the penalty for sin, death.
"In the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die." (quote from memory)

This then is significant. The first enemy of humankind becomes that last enemy and is destroyed. The point of complete reconciliation.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Agallagher said:

Dont forget the life giver, and life taker!

Also yes sin leads to death, we are all sinners, and are all going to die.

Though all people will be resurrected again.

Also there is sin that doesn't lead to death, let me remind you incase you have forgotten my brother, and friend in Lord Christ Yeshua.

1 John 5:17

All wicked actions are sin, but not every sin leads to death.

Click to expand...

Wanted to comment on your phrase, "sin leads to death".
Adam's sin already got us there. We are spiritually dead at birth. We find our spiritual life in Christ.

Hammster said:

Not everyone will be raised to eternal life.

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If you have to be raised from death, you don't have eternal life. You died.