Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

1an said:

Then you need to stop playing ring-a-ring-of-roses with God, because you will all end up falling down.
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I'm really sorry you do not believe Gods promises below and doubt them. The difference between us is that my faith is placed in Christ alone whereas yours is placed in your performance/works to keep you saved. Christ keeps me saved and salvation is of the Lord by His grave through faith which He grants.

Jude 1:24-25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Philippians 1:6-
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.NLT

1 Corinthians 1:8
He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

So in reality its not me who you oppose its Scripture.

hope this helps !!!

Dave L said:

Why are all not saved? Because universal atonement makes you dump salvation back on to the self-righteous to complete the atonement through obedience (works) because you imply it cannot save anyone on its own.

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Read the parable of the Wedding Banquet in Matthew 22 for Jesus's analogy on salvation. The call to the banquet was universal. The ones who entered successfully followed the instructions of the Kings servants who were sent out (analogous to Evangelists). The ones who did not successfully enter the banquet either made excuses or did not dress in the wedding clothes they were given (analogous to works based righteousness).

Paul differentiates between faith and works - you repeatedly confuse faith and obedience as works to defend your preconceptions. For reference, the "Works of the Law" are written in the Pentateuch (first 5 books of the Bible). When Jesus spoke of the Law and the Prophets - the Law was understood to be the Pentateuch.

Jesus is YHWH said:

I'm really sorry you do not believe Gods promises below and doubt them. The difference between us is that my faith is placed in Christ alone whereas yours is placed in your performance/works to keep you saved. Christ keeps me saved and salvation is of the Lord by His grave through faith which He grants.

Jude 1:24-25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Philippians 1:6-
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.NLT

1 Corinthians 1:8
He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

So in reality its not me who you oppose its Scripture.

hope this helps !!!

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Providing we remain a faithful follower of the Lord until the end. You see the verses you posted are about remaining faithful and continuing to the end. You even emboldened them. I wonder if you properly understand the full import of what you are reading.
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Jesus is YHWH said:

Well here is what their founder James Arminius said of Calvin below:

“Next to the study of the Scriptures which I earnestly inculcate, I exhort my pupils to peruse Calvin's Commentaries, which I extol in loftier terms than Helmich himself (a Dutch divine, 1551-1608]; for I affirm that he excels beyond comparison (incomparabilem esse) in the interpretation of Scripture, and that his commentaries ought to be more highly valued than all that is handed down to us by the library of the fathers; so that I acknowledge him to have possessed above most others, or rather above all other men, what may be called an eminent spirit of prophecy (spiritum aliquem prophetiae eximium). His Institutes ought to be studied after the [Heidelberg] Catechism, as containing a fuller explanation, but with discrimination ( cum delectu), like the writings of all men."

hope this helps !!!

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Well that’s was nice of him to say that about John Calvin. I would suppose that he was referring to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity which they both held similar views on that subject.

1an said:

Providing we remain a faithful follower of the Lord until the end. You see the verses you posted are about remaining faithful and continuing to the end. You even emboldened them. I wonder if you properly understand the full import of what you are reading.
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its just the opposite.

unto Him that keeps you from falling
God began the good work will continue HIS work
He will sustain you until the end blameless

Notice its not the believer doing the word its God. It refutes you not me. You are TWISTING Gods word. Shame on you !

Jude 1:24-25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Philippians 1:6-
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished

1 Corinthians 1:8
He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

hope this helps !!!

Jesus is YHWH said:

Your sentence structure makes absolutely no sense.

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It makes perfect sense. There’s nothing grammatically wrong with the way he worded it aside from the lack of quotation marks.

BNR32FAN said:

It makes perfect sense. There’s nothing grammatically wrong with the way he worded it aside from the lack of quotation marks.

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There is a place where he should have added the word "that", not that I am anyone who should talk.

RickReads said:

There is a place where he should have added the word "that", not that I am anyone who should talk.

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Yep !

RickReads said:

There is a place where he should have added the word "that", not that I am anyone who should talk.

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If he would’ve added quotation marks the word “that” would’ve been unnecessary. In any case this is a forum so formal writing isn’t necessary or even expected for that matter.

Paul would have said, anyone who teaches( THAT placed here) you do not need to run the race until the end, is not one of us.

Spiritual Jew said:

Why didn't you address what I said directly? Why did Paul say he didn't come to baptize but to preach the gospel if water baptism is part of the preaching of the gospel? Are you willing to answer that honestly?

Was the thief on the cross saved? What about anyone today who dies before they are able to get water baptized?

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"Preaching Christ" is teaching the gospel which saves which includes water immersion for the remission of sins according to (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34 ; 22:16) (Mark 16:15,16) (Jn 3:3-5,23) (1Peter 3:20,21) (Col. 2:12) (Titus 3:5) (Heb.10:22) (Rom. 6:3-6,16-18).

Ac 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Ac 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.


8:5 preaching Christ

8:12 preaching the things concerning the kingdom must include water baptism

8:35 How did the eunuch know about water immersion?

The text just says Philip preached Christ.


Why is baptism (in water) important? (Mark 16:16) (Acts 22:16)

(Jn 3:3-5) you cannot enter the kingdom (the church / the saved) unless you are baptized in water for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38,47) (Mark 16:15,16) (1Peter 3:20,21) (Titus 3:5) (Rom. 6:3-6,16-18)


Baptism (in water) doth now save us... (1Peter 3:20,21)


The thief on the cross lived and was saved under the OT Law system.

He was never commanded to be baptized for the remission of sins.


When one is baptized correctly they are baptized into Christs death (Rom. 6:3-6).

How could the thief be baptized into the death of Christ WHILE CHRIST IS STILL ALIVE?


The NT will of Christ was not in affect until the death of Christ (Heb. 7:12 ; 8:6-13 ; 9:15-17 ; 10:9,10)


2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.



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Dave L said:

The wedding call was for wicked Israel to repent. They did not and lost the nation in 70 AD.

You think the atonement cannot save. Unless the self-righteous make up the difference with their works (obedience).

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The Wedding Banquet parable is referring to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb - which Jesus speaks of elsewhere. It does not fit into a call for national repentance or destruction of the nation because it addresses the fate of individuals, not a nation, and the Kings servants who were sent out were not told to stick within national borders.

I have already quoted 1 John 2:2 (universal atonement) twice today on this thread and certainly did not allude to what you said - so you are a bad listener. Here again you are twisting Obedience to God with the Works of the Law to support your preconceptions. Why do you think Obedience to God is optional?

Dave L said:

The wedding call was for wicked Israel to repent. They did not and lost the nation in 70 AD.

You think the atonement cannot save. Unless the self-righteous make up the difference with their works (obedience).

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You think the gospel does not have the power to save.

Jesus is YHWH said:

Paul would have said, anyone who teaches( THAT placed here) you do not need to run the race until the end, is not one of us.

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See, you do understand.....
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1an said:

See, you do understand.....
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see your grammar was not correct............................

BNR32FAN said:

“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:12‬ ‭NASB

Jesus was keeping the 11 but not Judas so that the prophecy would be fulfilled. Judas had been the son of perdition throughout Jesus’ entire ministry.

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Well, of course. I'm not arguing that point. My point is that John 17:12 cannot be used to prove that Judas did not believe by claiming the one "who" is the same as the next "who".

Jesus is YHWH said:

see your grammar was not correct............................

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I know it wasn't correct. I spend hours running my web site through grammar checkers, and according to Slick Write, Pro-writing Aid, and Grammarly, I should have written.

According to Paul, "anyone who teaches running the race until the end is unnecessary, is not one of us."

Inserting the word "that" knocks the score down from 100% to 97%.

Just my bit of fun. I lead a very uninteresting life, unlike Robin Hood, the hero in my web site.
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Mark Quayle said:

Well, of course. I'm not arguing that point. My point is that John 17:12 cannot be used to prove that Judas did not believe by claiming the one "who" is the same as the next "who".

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it’s strange how all the sudden you seem to have shifted from a person being capable of believing without being elected to Judas being capable of believing knowing that he was obviously not elected. Why the sudden shift in position?

Spiritual Jew said:

I don't want to argue about terms and I don't intend to offend anyone by using a term that they don't like. So, I'll respect your wishes and use the term "cause" from now on. That's fine.

Let's talk about the terms partial and impartial as it relates to God causing people to change their minds resulting in repentance. Scripture teaches that He is impartial (2 Chron 19:7, Acts 10:34, Rom 2:11, Eph 6:9, 1 Peter 1:17). So, with that in mind, why would an impartial God cause some people to change their minds and repent instead of all people (or no one) if the choice is completely up to Him?

It seems to me that an impartial God would treat all people the same as it relates to salvation. And that is what scripture teaches. Because God wants all people to repent and to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6, Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9, Ezekiel 18:21-32) He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2, John 3:16) so that whoever chooses to believe in Him will have eternal life.

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With a handle like yours, I should think you would know better than to use your references to God's impartiality to defend your thesis here. Every one of those verses refer to a specific way that God is impartial. After all, was Israel not a favorite, particular, specially dealt with? And why --because they were better? --Of course not, but because God chose them for his purposes.

"God is impartial", because he is just and can't be bribed or coerced. "God is impartial", because all have sinned. "God is impartial" because the elect are chosen from both Jew and Greek. "God is impartial" because a person's temporal or social status is of no real consequence. "God is impartial" because he judges according to what a person does, and not according to our sight. --It does not say "God is impartial because he has no particular plans for anybody that he doesn't also plan for everybody."

1 Tim 2:3-6, The context shows the impetus is that God is the only Savior of any person. Acts 17:30-31, He is saying that people everywhere, (i.e. not from Israel alone), are included in those required to repent. 2 Peter 3:9, Contextually is speaking to and speaking about all the Elect. Ezekiel 18:21-32 says he doesn't take pleasure in the death of anyone --what has that to do with your thesis?