Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

Spiritual Jew · Nov 3, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Oh, my goodness. No. Choice implies, even from your viewpoint, two or more apparent options. But even that is misleading to say, because choice can even be unconsciously done.

Where did I say a person can't choose to not believe, and where did I say that an unbeliever can choose Christ? They are already unbelievers, so why can't they also choose to continue in their sin. The fact that they are willing slaves to sin doesn't make them not choosers of sin.

Here may be a ripe opportunity to introduce a concept you apparently haven't heard of --that of probability, and the law of causation. Your theology seems to assume that there are chances of this and that, and that free will can somehow equally choose from among them. You don't seem to take into account that all things are caused, except First Cause --God. In other words, there is no such thing as Chance determining any outcomes. "'Chance' is only a placeholder for 'I don't know'." If Scripture says we are all equally unworthy, how do you account for the fact that some choose Christ and some don't?

Because that's how free will works. Every individual has to choose for themselves. You're talking about probability and the law of causation. Show me where that is talked about in scripture and we'll talk about it. In the meantime, all I know is that everyone has to choose whether to serve Christ or not.

Joshua 24:14 “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

Isaiah 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Does God's election depend on mere chance? Or does it depend on the integrity of some?

All I know is that He cares about all people and wants them to repent and be saved. The chances of that are 100%.

I have a few questions for you.

Please tell me, do you believe that God wants all people to repent as scripture teaches (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9)?

Do you believe that Christ died for the sins of the whole world and that God wants all people to be saved as scripture teaches (1 Tim 2:3-6, John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2)?

Do you believe that God takes pleasure in the death of the wicked or that He wishes that that they would have turned from their wickedness instead?

Spiritual Jew · Nov 3, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Where have I, or Calvinism, said God forces people to repent/change their minds? We teach God causes the changed mind/ heart, with results in repentance, but even that change of heart, that regeneration, I cannot characterize as "forcing" but merely causing. Like I said before, God rarely gets accused of forcing a person to exist, or of forcing them to be born into a sinful nature. So why is his mercy to unworthy sinners being called "forcing".

I don't want to argue about terms and I don't intend to offend anyone by using a term that they don't like. So, I'll respect your wishes and use the term "cause" from now on. That's fine.

Let's talk about the terms partial and impartial as it relates to God causing people to change their minds resulting in repentance. Scripture teaches that He is impartial (2 Chron 19:7, Acts 10:34, Rom 2:11, Eph 6:9, 1 Peter 1:17). So, with that in mind, why would an impartial God cause some people to change their minds and repent instead of all people (or no one) if the choice is completely up to Him?

It seems to me that an impartial God would treat all people the same as it relates to salvation. And that is what scripture teaches. Because God wants all people to repent and to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6, Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9, Ezekiel 18:21-32) He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2, John 3:16) so that whoever chooses to believe in Him will have eternal life.

1an · Nov 3, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
Yes just look at Saul on the road to Damascus.

If Calvin had been alive at the time, Paul would have said, "you are not one of us."
.

Dave L · Nov 3, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Revelation 12:
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word[logos] of their testimony,
and they did not love their lives to the death.

1 Peter 3:
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone
who asks you a reason [logos] for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.

Luke 1:77. To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins.

knowledge of salvation=experience. Experienced what?
the remission of their sins. What is remission? Ask a cancer survivor.
The remission of sin is the experience of deliverance from the power of sin in your life.
If you fall back into your carnal nature, you will sin, and need to confess to your
beloved brethren in Christ, as per 1 John 1.
When you abide in the Holy Spirit, you not only will not, but you cannot sin, because his
seed abides in you, as per 1 John 3.
If we say that we have no sin...?
When you offer your testimony as to how the Lord has delivered you from the power of sin and death,
how you no longer walk in the ways of a corrupt world, you are overcoming by the power of that word.

Salvation is not theology or dogmatic belief, it is the power of an everlasting life. The same Spirit
that raised Christ from the grave is working in you to will and to do of His Good Pleasure.

In my situation salvation was an experience in my heart that caused me to believe. This was at a time when I had no interest in religion. I've heard others say the same.

Mr. M · Nov 3, 2020

Dave L said:
In my situation salvation was an experience in my heart that caused me to believe. This was at a time when I had no interest in religion. I've heard others say the same.

By an experience in the heart, are you referring to conviction?
John 16:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away,
the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

Dave L · Nov 3, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
By an experience in the heart, are you referring to conviction?
John 16:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away,
the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

It was the fruit of the Holy Spirit. In essence, God entered my heart at a time I wasn't seeking him. Making me his temple as Paul says. So the joy and peace of mind prompted faith in Christ.

Mr. M · Nov 3, 2020

Dave L said:
It was the fruit of the Holy Spirit. In essence, God entered my heart at a time I wasn't seeking him. Making me his temple as Paul says. So the joy and peace of mind prompted faith in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:21. For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God,
it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
The preaching of the Gospel i.e. God gave His only Son to death on the Cross for the Salvation of
the World, allows the Holy Spirit to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment. "Another Gospel"
will fail to produce that conviction. As to the fruit of the Spirit:
Luke 8:15. But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word,
with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

Dave L · Nov 3, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
1 Corinthians 1:21. For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God,
it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
The preaching of the Gospel i.e. God gave His only Son to death on the Cross for the Salvation of
the World, allows the Holy Spirit to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment. "Another Gospel"
will fail to produce that conviction. As to the fruit of the Spirit:
Luke 8:15. But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word,
with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

My salvation happened when I was 20. And I believe the same today based on my Christ in my heart experience.

Mr. M · Nov 3, 2020

Dave L said:
My salvation happened when I was 20. And I believe the same today based on my Christ in my heart experience.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is The Son of God who took on flesh?
By an experience in the heart, are you referring to conviction?
John 16:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away,
the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness,
and of judgment.

Dave L · Nov 3, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Do you believe that Jesus Christ is The Son of God who took on flesh?
By an experience in the heart, are you referring to conviction?
John 16:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away,
the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness,
and of judgment.

You probably call it the Baptism of the Holy Spirit if you are Pentecostal. I call it the New Birth and the fullness of the Spirit that comes through repentance.

Mr. M · Nov 3, 2020

Dave L said:
You probably call it the Baptism of the Holy Spirit if you are Pentecostal. I call it the New Birth and the fullness of the Spirit that comes through repentance.

I am calling it conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment. Baptism of the Holy Spirit may
come later, as in the case of the household of Cornelius and the assembly at Ephesus.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is The Son of God who took on flesh?

Dave L · Nov 3, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
I am calling it conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment. Baptism of the Holy Spirit may
come later, as in the case of the household of Cornelius and the assembly at Ephesus.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is The Son of God who took on flesh?

Relax, I agree with the Ecumenical Creeds on Christology, the Trinity, the Person of Christ, Sin, and Grace.

Mr. M · Nov 3, 2020

Dave L said:
Relax, I agree with the Ecumenical Creeds on Christology, the Trinity, the Person of Christ, Sin, and Grace.

I am relaxed, but concerned at how difficult it could possibly be to give a simple Yes,
to a Yes/No question. Where in my Bible can I read about these Ecumenical Creeds?

Dave L said:
the Person of Christ

Who is He? The Son of David?

Mr. M · Nov 3, 2020

Dave L said:
It was the fruit of the Holy Spirit. In essence, God entered my heart at a time I wasn't seeking him. Making me his temple as Paul says. So the joy and peace of mind prompted faith in Christ.

My concern here is that you would think that salvation is by joy and peace of mind, or other fruit
of the spirit. Something very important must happen before a seed can bring forth fruit.
John 12:
24 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain.
25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.

BNR32FAN · Nov 3, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Actually, no, it doesn't. It's not saying that Judas did not believe, as the Greek "who" in "he knew who did not believe" there is plural. Some versions say instead of "who", "which ones". It is also not saying that Judas DID believe, either. But the Greek "who" in "he knew who would betray him" is singular, which would seem to imply that it refers to Judas.

“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:12‬ ‭NASB

Jesus was keeping the 11 but not Judas so that the prophecy would be fulfilled. Judas had been the son of perdition throughout Jesus’ entire ministry.

Dave L · Nov 3, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
My concern here is that you would think that salvation is by joy and peace of mind, or other fruit
of the spirit. Something very important must happen before a seed can bring forth fruit.
John 12:
24 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain.
25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.

The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are God's children. What bothers me most is my salvation is based on evidence. Most base it on the arm of the flesh that cannot save.

Dave L · Nov 3, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
I am relaxed, but concerned at how difficult it could possibly be to give a simple Yes,
to a Yes/No question. Where in my Bible can I read about these Ecumenical Creeds?

Who is He? The Son of David?

The Creeds define Christian belief. Cults are those who do not agree with them.

Mr. M · Nov 3, 2020

Dave L said:
Most base it on the arm of the flesh that cannot save.

Are you referring to the lost here?
Most Christians believe that they are saved by Grace through Faith.

Dave L said:
What bothers me most is my salvation is based on evidence.

Faith is the evidence.

Mr. M · Nov 3, 2020

Dave L said:
The Creeds define Christian belief. Cults are those who do not agree with them.

John 20:31. but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that believing you may have life in His name.
Do the creeds require this confession of faith?
Jesus Christ is The Son of God who took on flesh?

Dave L · Nov 3, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Are you referring to the lost here?
Most Christians believe that they are saved by Grace through Faith.

Faith is the evidence.

Not really. They say that because you are supposed to. But most have faith in their faith to save them, and not in Christ directly.

Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

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