Universalists: How do you explain the "problem passages"?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Cormack

“I bet you're a real hulk on the internet...”
Apr 21, 2020
1,469
1,407
London
✟94,797.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
The typical evangelical view is that everyone is naturally damned. Jesus provides an opportunity for a few (estimates of 10% still seem to be common) to be saved.

Doesn’t this make Christ’s work at the cross seem less victorious than early Christians and the scriptures proclaim? I mean, short notice analogy here, but compare it to a football match, the home team’s losing to the jersey devils 100-0.

Still, the home team have super sub striker Jesus Ronald waiting on the bench to change the entire complexion of the match. He finally gets onto the pitch and scores (10 goals.... :doh::checkeredflag:)

No doubt scoring on the devils 10 times is better than zero goals, but the score line is still very bleak looking to me.

Especially bleak when it seems that God wants mankind to be saved, so it’s not just a guy thing or human standards of value, wanting to win more converts like it’s a big game of bank the soul (rather it’s Gods standard to say He wants the lost to live.)

ON TOPIC: On the scriptural front that’s how many Christians reconcile the trouble passages, by invoking Gods power and (seemingly good) priorities to save over the material that appears to point towards God having an ending to His work that’s anything less than a perfect victory on His part.
 
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,148,908.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Doesn’t this make Christ’s work at the cross seem less victorious than early Christians and the scriptures proclaim? I mean, short notice analogy here, but compare it to a football match, the home team’s losing to the jersey devils 100-0.
Yes. But from very early days, Jesus vision of the Gospel was replaced with the idea that his purpose was to save people from hell. When the whole reason you're a Christian is to be saved, and particularly when you think you're having to put up with all kind of unpleasant restrictions to do that, the idea that everyone will be saved seems like a betrayal of Christianity.

The question of whether it makes God more or less victorious depends upon what you think his purpose is. Calvinists consider that damning people gives God glory. From that kind of perspective victory looks very different from what I think you and I envision.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You have not provided a credible response to 1 Cor 15. Directing us to other NT authors isn't an exegesis of Paul.

Since scripture interprets scripture, the John passage is a very credible response, that proves the damned are indeed resurrected, just to die again after judgment.

I have no problem understanding that 1 Corinthians 15 is referencing only those in Christ.

That’s clearly what Paul meant, and it takes isolating one verse from the rest of the passage, to conclude it means all men, even those not in Christ.

Shalom.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I was gonna add more to this but i think this is my clear defintion of the afterlife, and the gates of the heavenly city never close, which allows for the ability for God to get his will, for all to come to the knowledge of the truth even after DEATH itself.

Unfortunately our destiny is set when we die, no second chances.

Heb 9:27 Everyone must die once, and after that be judged by God.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That would make sense then. That would be the only explanation. It's still reaching though, but if satan, the beast, and false prophet get tormented "for the ages of the ages" and then eventually perish and get destroyed, that would make sense doctrinally.

God is an eternal spirit, who has no body...therefore when He made us in His image, we were made an eternal spirit that lives in a home called our body.

Angels are spirits, too.

Spirits can’t be destroyed any more than God can be destroyed, thus they can’t be annihilated, ever.

This is speculation and not doctrine, but I feel that the lake of fire is a black hole, that has so much gravity that light can’t escape it, nor spirits escape it.

That would explain how it is a place of darkness and fire simultaneously.

Their torment could possibly be the emotional torment of being in darkness forever, and being kept from paradise forever.

Or not.

That’s speculation only, and nothing to build any doctrine on.

Shalom.
 
Upvote 0

bèlla

❤️
Site Supporter
Jan 16, 2019
20,539
17,696
USA
✟953,371.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
Universalism means basically, all ways lead to God.

Is that a tenet of Universalism or a synopsis in his own words? There is a line in the Bhagavad Gita which says the same: As they approach me, so I receive them. All paths, Arjuna, lead to me.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella
 
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,148,908.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Since scripture interprets scripture, the John passage is a very credible response, that proves the damned are indeed resurrected, just to die again after judgment.
Jesus taught clearly that we would be held accountable for what we do. "Condemnation," however is pretty unspecific about the form of condemnation. I would expect that most of us can expect that, to one degree or another. But there's a pretty large gap between saying that evildoers will be condemned and saying that they will be tormented forever.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
…..How do universalists explain the problem passages. According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which is translated hades and gehenna in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And the second death is hell...if you can accept it...
Revelation 20:7-9:
7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Pretty close.

Hell itself gets thrown into the lake of fire.

Shalom.
 
Upvote 0

mlepfitjw

May you be blessed!
Jun 23, 2020
1,620
1,093
Alabama
✟44,897.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Is that a tenet of Universalism or a synopsis in his own words? There is a line in the Bhagavad Gita which says the same: As they approach me, so I receive them. All paths, Arjuna, lead to me.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

Goodness, I do not know. It seems just like a synopsis in his own words.

No issues with people who believe in the universalism belief, only thing I cannot rectify is the between line of, believer, and those who sins are paid for yet they do not really want nothing to do with God ; though God gives them some spiritual resurrected body, and are outside the city, that allows for time to pass and maybe they come to realization of the need for God even after the mercy of giving them a body.

For me all people die an got the heaven and that is it, but there are two parts of heavenly city, the inside and outside. Just like she'ol.

Thanks for posting @Bèlla though I dont understan the Bhagavad Gita part. My own brother believes that all ways lead to God, and though I believe the Lord Jesus Christ is that way, I don't correct him.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Pretty close.
Hell itself gets thrown into the lake of fire.
Shalom
.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be thrown anywhere.
Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
 
Upvote 0

martymonster

Veteran
Dec 15, 2006
3,418
933
✟175,709.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I don't think we can.

There are a handful of verses that might be interpreted as supporting Universalism--a handful--but they are far outnumbered by the Bible verses that are quite emphatic in saying the opposite (as you observed yourself).

So you're saying the bible contradicts itself?
 
Upvote 0

martymonster

Veteran
Dec 15, 2006
3,418
933
✟175,709.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It's really hard to know how literally to take these passages. The standard example of a rejected group is Sodom and Gomorrah. "As when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighbors, says the LORD, so no one shall live there, nor shall anyone settle in her." (Jer 50:40) Yet Ezek 16:53 says "I will restore their fortunes, the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and the fortunes of Samaria and her daughters, and I will restore your own fortunes along with theirs,"

No, it's really not hard to know how literally to take these passages.
Christ himself only spoke in parables.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,148,908.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
So, I did a search for "flame never dies" and it yielded zero results!
I suspect the reference is this:

"And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into hell, where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched." (Mark 9:47-8)

This is, of course, a reference to Isaiah: "And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh" {66:24). Of course in this case the people involved are dead. The fire is burning their dead bodies. And it's not actually everlasting, since it's not there anymore.

Given the OT background, if you want to take this literally, it would seem to imply annihilation. It's also worth noting that the passage in Mark is pretty clearly hyperbole. That might reasonably discourage a literal reading.
 
Upvote 0

martymonster

Veteran
Dec 15, 2006
3,418
933
✟175,709.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I suspect the reference is this:

"And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into hell, where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched." (Mark 9:47-8)

This is, of course, a reference to Isaiah: "And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh" {66:24). Of course in this case the people involved are dead. The fire is burning their dead bodies. And it's not actually everlasting, since it's not there anymore.

Given the OT background, if you want to take this literally, it would seem to imply annihilation. It's also worth noting that the passage in Mark is pretty clearly hyperbole. That might reasonably discourage a literal reading.

And this is why I have a real problem with people paraphrasing what scripture says. The specific words used in a verse, have a very particular spiritual meaning. When you change them, you change the meaning.

I did I quick search for the word "worm" and there was two interpretations for it. |

Job 25:5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?


Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
Psa 22:6
But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

We simply are not at liberty to guess what a scripture is saying. We are only permitted to let scripture interpret scripture.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RickReads

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
3,433
1,068
59
richmond
✟64,831.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
…..How do universalists explain the problem passages. According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which is translated hades and gehenna in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

I`m not equipped to deal with translation issues which is what the root of Universalism is about. That is why I can`t explore this issue the way I would like to. Hell is trouble I intend to avoid so I`m not motivated to go learn Hebrew and Greek just so I can speculate about God`s intentions.

Having said that, I don`t think the Talmud is a irrefutable source anymore then hinduism, buddhism, Islam etc. The Jewish Enc only goes back to 1906, the Judaica Ecy is 1971, both can be considered to be based on the Talmud I would think.

The article below was sourced from multiple places including some that are pretty old.

The Gehenna Of Fire | Concordant Publishing Concern
 
  • Like
Reactions: mlepfitjw
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.