Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

Does it have to be one or the other? What if God works in 2 ways..?

RickReads said:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Spirit baptism is the one baptism. The water is a work.

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Well, God said belief is a work in (Jn 6:28,29)

Sorry, (1Cor.12:13) is not speaking about Holy Spirit baptism.

For by one Spirit we are all Baptized...

Men are baptized (in water)according to how the Spirit instructs.

We see that instruction in (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-30-34 ; 22:16).


Where are the instructions of how to be baptized by the Holy Spirit?

Where is the COMMAND for ALL MEN to be baptized by the Holy Spirit?

How do I know I have been baptized by the Holy Spirit?


Does the church you attend practice water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism?

If so, you have one to many baptisms according to (Eph. 4:5).

Dave L said:

how can you believe you are saved if you believe you can end up in hell? Faith says God saved you from that.

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Do you have your victor's crown already? Have you already been faithful to the point of death? If you're confident that you will receive it one day, that's cool. I'm confident about that regarding myself as well. But, I'm not arrogant. It's arrogant to ignore the warnings given in passages like Hebrews 3:12-15. What does this say about when we get the victor's crown of life?

Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown. 11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

If it's not possible to lose your salvation, then explain Hebrews 3:12-15 and explain this passage:

Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

If you don't bother telling me how you interpret these passages, then there is no point in me answering any of your questions from this point on. I'm not willing to continue doing all the work in a one way conversation. If you were just asking questions out of a desire to learn something, that would be different. But, that is not the case here.

Dave L said:

Many hate God and worship idols thinking they are God if Calvin was right.

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I still don't know what you're trying to say. Can you try again to explain it more clearly? Just one more try, though. I'm getting bored.

Nova2216 said:

Well, God said belief is a work in (Jn 6:28,29)

Sorry, (1Cor.12:13) is not speaking about Holy Spirit baptism.

For by one Spirit we are all Baptized...

Men are baptized (in water)according to how the Spirit instructs.

We see that instruction in (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-30-34 ; 22:16).


Where are the instructions of how to be baptized by the Holy Spirit?

Where is the COMMAND for ALL MEN to be baptized by the Holy Spirit?

How do I know I have been baptized by the Holy Spirit?


Does the church you attend practice water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism?

If so, you have one to many baptisms according to (Eph. 4:5).

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by one Spirit we are all Baptized, what part of that don`t u understand?

What makes you think God would turn the power of salvation over to men?

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

Nova2216 said:

Well, God said belief is a work in (Jn 6:28,29)

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Not the kind of work that doesn't save us, though. Otherwise, Paul wouldn't have differentiated between faith and works as he did here:

Ephesians 2:8 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

The good works God prepared for us come AFTER we've been saved by grace through faith. They come naturally for us after we're saved because the Holy Spirit reveals to us what God wants us to do and we do those things cheerfully because we love God and want to obey Him.

Dave L said:

If you believe you are saved but can still lose your salvation, you do not really believe you are saved. Faith believes God saves without failure.

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That makes no sense. You can be saved and still see the warnings about departing from the faith that are given in passages like Hebrews 3:12-15, Hebrews 6:4-6 and John 15:1-10 and heed them. What are those warnings for if it's not possible to depart from the faith?

Can you take the time to answer one of my questions (the one I asked above) directly for the first time? If you don't then I'm done wasting my time. I'm not interested in responding to only your opinions that aren't backed up with scripture.

Nova2216 said:

Well, God said belief is a work in (Jn 6:28,29)

Sorry, (1Cor.12:13) is not speaking about Holy Spirit baptism.

For by one Spirit we are all Baptized...

Men are baptized (in water)according to how the Spirit instructs.

We see that instruction in (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-30-34 ; 22:16).


Where are the instructions of how to be baptized by the Holy Spirit?

Where is the COMMAND for ALL MEN to be baptized by the Holy Spirit?

How do I know I have been baptized by the Holy Spirit?


Does the church you attend practice water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism?

If so, you have one to many baptisms according to (Eph. 4:5).

Click to expand...

I see Eph 4:5 as speaking of the spiritual. One Lord, one faith and one baptism in the Holy Spirit, rather than the physical water baptism which is out of line with the other two that are spiritual.
.

Landon Caeli said:

Does it have to be one or the other? What if God works in 2 ways..?

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God works in many ways
.

Spiritual Jew said:

I don't know what you mean. Please clarify.

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You seem to think Calvinists don't believe the lost have any ability to choose; not so-- Calvinist believe the lost choose to work against God all day long.

John Mullally said:

You mentioned two kinds of faith in Christ. For arguments sake: I will call the Faith where the person is drawn by the Spirit of God as being Faith A. I will call the Faith where the person draws himself to Christ on his own accord Faith B.

John 6:37 can be divided into two halves:
1. All those the Father gives me will come to me.
2. Whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

The second half of John 6:37 applies to both Faith A and Faith B because they both come to Christ – and therefore both Faith A and Faith B are saving faith. The first half of John 6:37 applies only to Faith A – those with Faith B were not given to Jesus by the Father and therefore Faith B is not saving faith. The only resolution is that Faith B does not exist.

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No. This is a main point in Calvinism. Your "Faith B where a person "comes" to Christ of his own accord does not come to Christ at all --so it is not saving faith.

RickReads said:

Well, all I can tell you is what scripture says about it. Near as I can tell there are 3 actions God takes to turn a person into a new creature.

First is, salvation by election. This action takes place before a person is made in the womb.

Jeremiah 1:5

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Second is, God bestows the gift of faith via our contact with the gospel.

Romans 10:17

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"

Third is, God circumcises the heart and indwells us with the Spirit of Christ. This third action saves us and enables us to become part of the body of Christ.

Romans 8:9-11

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

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I don't see those three, undeveloped or undefined as you have left them, as opposing Calvinism in any way.

Mark Quayle said:

No. This is a main point in Calvinism. Your "Faith B where a person "comes" to Christ of his own accord does not come to Christ at all --so it is not saving faith.

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I used Faith A and Faith B for the sake of argument, to show my reasoning, upon your request. Your response is to say someone "coming to Christ on his own accord (Faith B)" is not "coming to Christ at all" - so in other words when someone does X on his own accord, he is not doing X at all.

The closest thing to a discussion of Faith B I could find in the New Testament is 1 John 2:19 - but that is vague.

In 2 Peter 2, the false teachers were said to have had saving faith.

Mark Quayle said:

I don't see those three, undeveloped or undefined as you have left them, as opposing Calvinism in any way.

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It indirectly opposes because I brought out the proper sequence that leads to regeneration which is the point where man becomes spiritual/saved.

The local Calvins claim it happens before contact with the gospel during the time the Father Draws.
God using His power to involuntarily draw is the justification for irrisistable Grace and they are claiming the regeneration takes place at that time.

A few words about repentence.

When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Mark Quayle said:

You seem to think Calvinists don't believe the lost have any ability to choose; not so-- Calvinist believe the lost choose to work against God all day long.

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Do they have the ability to choose to not work against God all day long? If not, then the "choice" you're talking about is not really a choice at all. A choice implies at least 2 viable options that one could choose from.