All the law...

Tellyontellyon

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I get the sense from what people say here, and from the Bible, that there was a big change when Jesus died on the cross and was reborn...
Now, it seems to be that we can't be forgiven by our actions and that, in fact, a lot of the laws that seemed essential... from the ten commandments... that you could even get stoned to death for e.g., working on the Sabbath... don't even count anymore!
The law now seems to be all about love... Love! That's the essence of what God wants from us!

Matthew 22:37-40
New International Version:

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I've met some amazing, lovely, Born-Again Christians, and they are so positive, so enthusiastic and loving... They really seem to have connected with something so powerful.

Why then go and spoil it all by being so condemning of LGBT people? How come they get slammed with the Old Law? This is really a disturbing blot on an otherwise loving religious community.
 

Dave G.

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We ( people in general) are still under the law if we don't come to Christ Jesus. But part of coming to Him is repentance, which means to have a change of mind about our sinful lives and to turn to Jesus. The Holy Spirit will help in this but we have to be willing. That's part and parcel to our salvation. An active LGBT has no intention of doing that so there is no salvation, The Law Still Applies. I've said it before, the evidence of a saved life is in the heart, a changed heart will reveal a changed life. One preacher put it this way. Gays welcome to come in holding hands and leave through separate doors. In this we see the activity ended. When we truly come to Christ in faith it produces a change. I don't know what that looks like for the LGBT but it's very likely not living out the actions of that lifestyle.

We don't get to judge, even above that sounds harsh. I'm just telling you what is supported by scripture.
 
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Dave G.

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[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]
So, So, So fortunately, God gets to judge this and each and every case, including mine. Not me, which is why I wrote what I did at the end of my message. We do have a merciful God. However, scripture was screaming this stuff long before I ever came along.
 
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Hmm

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You are correct to say it's not you who judges. It's good that you've learnt something from when you made your first post:

An active LGBT has no intention of doing that so there is no salvation,
 
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Tellyontellyon

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So how come the gay people have to do all the repenting and changing, but the Sabbath working (10 commandments) is not even discussed?
Or say, sex before marriage, Christians are saying it's wrong... but it doesn't attract anything like the same amount of condemnation. What about somebody who has divorced, not for cheating, and is unwilling to consider themselves as still married? If they marry again.. it's adultery! Shock! Horror!
Where are the placards and political campaigns about remarrying?

Charging interests on loans... does that still count? Christians shouldn't have mortgages? Or go to the courtroom? Or call the police? Where is the outrage when a Christian sues another Christian? Surely they should repent?
 
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Hmm

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So how come the gay people have to do all the repenting and changing

I don't know if that was addressed to me but I wasn't saying that gay people have to repent. My response was to the previous post. I was saying that people who say gay people are going to hell need to repent of hypocrisy and judgmentalism.
 
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dqhall

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I get the sense from what people say here, and from the Bible, that there was a big change when Jesus died on the cross and was reborn...
Now, it seems to be that we can't be forgiven by our actions and that, in fact, a lot of the laws that seemed essential... from the ten commandments... that you could even get stoned to death for e.g., working on the Sabbath... don't even count anymore!
The law now seems to be all about love... Love! That's the essence of what God wants from us!

Matthew 22:37-40
New International Version:

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I've met some amazing, lovely, Born-Again Christians, and they are so positive, so enthusiastic and loving... They really seem to have connected with something so powerful.

Why then go and spoil it all by being so condemning of LGBT people? How come they get slammed with the Old Law? This is really a disturbing blot on an otherwise loving religious community.
There were 36 sins requiring the death penalty in the Old Testament.
BBC - Religions - Christianity: Capital punishment

Christ came to set people free. In Acts 15 the apostles ruled against Gentile Christians being made subject to the law (Torah) in its entirety. Many Christians and reformed Jews are against the death penalty. This does not mean we are lawless. Christ taught against murder, anger, lust and adultery, and many other things. Jesus praised the good Samaritan for rescuing the victim of a violent robbery found unconscious along the Jerusalem-Jericho road. This Samaritan obeyed the law requiring you to love your neighbor the way you would want to be loved.

I do not harass LGBT people. I do not recommend their perversion.
 
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Greengardener

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I get the sense from what people say here, and from the Bible, that there was a big change when Jesus died on the cross and was reborn...
Now, it seems to be that we can't be forgiven by our actions and that, in fact, a lot of the laws that seemed essential... from the ten commandments... that you could even get stoned to death for e.g., working on the Sabbath... don't even count anymore!
The law now seems to be all about love... Love! That's the essence of what God wants from us!

Matthew 22:37-40
New International Version:

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I've met some amazing, lovely, Born-Again Christians, and they are so positive, so enthusiastic and loving... They really seem to have connected with something so powerful.

Why then go and spoil it all by being so condemning of LGBT people? How come they get slammed with the Old Law? This is really a disturbing blot on an otherwise loving religious community.
Here's what comes to mind in reading your post. We've often missed the point and we are missing it again here. God set up a way of living that He knew would work for us. The things He told us in the Law were describing how those would be worked out. The sexual union was designed clearly for the procreation of families and were an integral part of the stability of communities. All the laws against sexual union outside the one-man-one-woman marriage were give to keep the family and the community stable: sex with relatives, with animals, with same sex, with your neighbor's spouse - it all fits in with the wrong place to have that kind of relationship. (Granted, there was polygamy, but it was one-man-one-woman unions, not gang stuff, and besides, you can see we didn't get the best results from it.)

I don't have any reason to be judgmental toward people who choose an alternate lifestyle but the Bible has existed for thousands of years showing the degrading of society and the role sexual behavior played, and infanticide and child sacrifice were in that degrading process as well. It's a bit concerning that today all major countries are condoning both behaviors. I'm not suggesting we need more legislation. I think we need a revival of righteousness.

Hebrews 12 brings out an important realization: Without holiness, no man will see God. We can talk about love, and love is vital. In the process, we need to be careful NOT to forget that God gets to set the rules about what He will accept, and He didn't tell us something that He later changed His mind on. He clearly spelled it out for us. People can choose what they want to believe and act on, whether to believe and act on what God explained about appropriate human behavior and how He wants His people to walk as He walks or not. But in the last day, each man's work will be shown for what it is by the one just and righteous Judge (not me).
 
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Soyeong

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I get the sense from what people say here, and from the Bible, that there was a big change when Jesus died on the cross and was reborn...
Now, it seems to be that we can't be forgiven by our actions and that, in fact, a lot of the laws that seemed essential... from the ten commandments... that you could even get stoned to death for e.g., working on the Sabbath... don't even count anymore!
The law now seems to be all about love... Love! That's the essence of what God wants from us!

Matthew 22:37-40
New International Version:

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I've met some amazing, lovely, Born-Again Christians, and they are so positive, so enthusiastic and loving... They really seem to have connected with something so powerful.

Why then go and spoil it all by being so condemning of LGBT people? How come they get slammed with the Old Law? This is really a disturbing blot on an otherwise loving religious community.

All of the commandments given by God are examples of what it looks like to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so they are all connected. For example, obedience to the command to help the poor looks like obedience to the command to love our neighbor, so the command to love does not replace the other commandments, but rather it is the essence of them. If someone obedience to the command to love does not look like obedience to God's other laws, then they have an incomplete understanding of what it means to love and they are not treating the command to love as being the sum of the other commands. It is a sin to have homosexual sex and it is not loving someone to turn a blind eye to their sin instead of calling them to repent.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I get the sense from what people say here, and from the Bible, that there was a big change when Jesus died on the cross and was reborn...
Now, it seems to be that we can't be forgiven by our actions and that, in fact, a lot of the laws that seemed essential... from the ten commandments... that you could even get stoned to death for e.g., working on the Sabbath... don't even count anymore!
The law now seems to be all about love... Love! That's the essence of what God wants from us!

Matthew 22:37-40
New International Version:

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I've met some amazing, lovely, Born-Again Christians, and they are so positive, so enthusiastic and loving... They really seem to have connected with something so powerful.

Why then go and spoil it all by being so condemning of LGBT people? How come they get slammed with the Old Law? This is really a disturbing blot on an otherwise loving religious community.

The purpose of the 613 Laws in the Torah or first five books of the Old Testament is to show us where we are wrong. Even in the old testament people were saved by faith. True faith leads to good works. Hebrews 11 demonstrates this.

Hebrews 11
Contemporary English Version
The Great Faith of God’s People
11 Faith makes us sure of what we hope for and gives us proof of what we cannot see. 2 It was their faith that made our ancestors pleasing to God.

3 Because of our faith, we know that the world was made at God’s command. We also know that what can be seen was made out of what cannot be seen.

4 Because Abel had faith, he offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. God was pleased with him and his gift, and even though Abel is now dead, his faith still speaks for him.

5 Enoch had faith and did not die. He pleased God, and God took him up to heaven. That’s why his body was never found. 6 But without faith no one can please God. We must believe that God is real and that he rewards everyone who searches for him.

7 Because Noah had faith, he was warned about something that had not yet happened. He obeyed and built a boat that saved him and his family. In this way the people of the world were judged, and Noah was given the blessings that come to everyone who pleases God.

8 Abraham had faith and obeyed God. He was told to go to the land that God had said would be his, and he left for a country he had never seen. 9 Because Abraham had faith, he lived as a stranger in the promised land. He lived there in a tent, and so did Isaac and Jacob, who were later given the same promise. 10 Abraham did this, because he was waiting for the eternal city that God had planned and built.

11 Even when Sarah was too old to have children, she had faith that God would do what he had promised, and she had a son. 12 Her husband Abraham was almost dead, but he became the ancestor of many people. In fact, there are as many of them as there are stars in the sky or grains of sand along the beach.

13 Every one of those people died. But they still had faith, even though they had not received what they had been promised. They were glad just to see these things from far away, and they agreed that they were only strangers and foreigners on this earth. 14 When people talk this way, it is clear that they are looking for a place to call their own. 15 If they had been talking about the land where they had once lived, they could have gone back at any time. 16 But they were looking forward to a better home in heaven. That’s why God wasn’t ashamed for them to call him their God. He even built a city for them.

17-18 Abraham had been promised that Isaac, his only son,[a] would continue his family. But when Abraham was tested, he had faith and was willing to sacrifice Isaac, 19 because he was sure that God could raise people to life. This was just like getting Isaac back from death.

20 Isaac had faith, and he promised blessings to Jacob and Esau. 21 Later, when Jacob was about to die, he leaned on his walking stick and worshiped. Then because of his faith he blessed each of Joseph’s sons. 22 And right before Joseph died, he had faith that God would lead the people of Israel out of Egypt. So he told them to take his bones with them.

23 Because Moses' parents had faith, they kept him hidden until he was three months old. They saw that he was a beautiful child, and they were not afraid to disobey the king’s orders. 24 Then after Moses grew up, his faith made him refuse to be called Pharaoh’s grandson. 25 He chose to be mistreated with God’s people instead of having the good time that sin could bring for a little while. 26 Moses knew that the treasures of Egypt were not as wonderful as what he would receive from suffering for the Messiah,[c] and he looked forward to his reward.

27 Because of his faith, Moses left Egypt. Moses had seen the invisible God and wasn’t afraid of the king’s anger. 28 His faith also made him celebrate Passover. He sprinkled the blood of animals on the doorposts, so that the first-born sons of the people of Israel would not be killed by the destroying angel.

29 Because of their faith, the people walked through the Red Sea[d] on dry land. But when the Egyptians tried to do it, they were drowned.

30 God’s people had faith, and when they had walked around the city of Jericho for seven days, its walls fell down.

31 Rahab had been a prostitute, but she had faith and welcomed the spies. So she wasn’t killed with the people who disobeyed.

32 What else can I say? There isn’t enough time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets. 33 Their faith helped them conquer kingdoms, and because they did right, God made promises to them. They closed the jaws of lions 34 and put out raging fires and escaped from the swords of their enemies. Although they were weak, they were given the strength and power to chase foreign armies away.

35 Some women received their loved ones back from death. Many of these people were tortured, but they refused to be released. They were sure that they would get a better reward when the dead are raised to life. 36 Others were made fun of and beaten with whips, and some were chained in jail. 37 Still others were stoned to death or sawed in two[e] or killed with swords. Some had nothing but sheep skins or goat skins to wear. They were poor, mistreated, and tortured. 38 The world did not deserve these good people, who had to wander in deserts and on mountains and had to live in caves and holes in the ground.

39 All of them pleased God because of their faith! But still they died without being given what had been promised. 40 This was because God had something better in store for us. And he did not want them to reach the goal of their faith without us.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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So how come the gay people have to do all the repenting and changing, but the Sabbath working (10 commandments) is not even discussed?

True faith results in all who repents to change.

Or say, sex before marriage, Christians are saying it's wrong... but it doesn't attract anything like the same amount of condemnation. What about somebody who has divorced, not for cheating, and is unwilling to consider themselves as still married? If they marry again.. it's adultery! Shock! Horror!
Where are the placards and political campaigns about remarrying?

The attention is due to a political cultural movement trying to push their sinful lifestyle down everyone's throats as being normal. Sex before marriage is disciplined by a church. The Divorce issue depends on which church one attends. There are some churches who will expil one for divorce. Remarriage is not a poltical culture movement to push their sin as normal.



Charging interests on loans... does that still count? Christians shouldn't have mortgages? Or go to the courtroom? Or call the police? Where is the outrage when a Christian sues another Christian? Surely they should repent?
 
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But my question is about why do Christians scream and shout about gay sex, but e.g. near silence on divorce and remarriage... why the double standard?

I mean the most straightforward answer is that Christians, like anyone else, are hypocrites, sinners, and fall into the same flawed patterns as anyone else.

It is, of course, way more complicated than that. Christians don't all approach the same moral topics in the same way, or have the same views; and debate on what is the appropriate Christian view for a given subject matter is a subject of massive debate among Christians.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Sketcher

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I get the sense from what people say here, and from the Bible, that there was a big change when Jesus died on the cross and was reborn...
Now, it seems to be that we can't be forgiven by our actions and that, in fact, a lot of the laws that seemed essential... from the ten commandments... that you could even get stoned to death for e.g., working on the Sabbath... don't even count anymore!
The law now seems to be all about love... Love! That's the essence of what God wants from us!

Matthew 22:37-40
New International Version:

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
These verses do not represent a change. Jesus was getting to what the heart of the matter always was, all the way back to the giving of the Law.

Concerning the Sabbath, there's what the Lord commanded through Moses:

“Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people. For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death. The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.” - Exodus 31:-14-17​

But separate from that is what the Pharisees and Saducees defined as "work" which people were to avoid on the Sabbath. Some of their prohibitions on "work" made it more work to avoid what they called "work." Jesus was against this. He was more generous with the exceptions given to preserving life than they were. I would expect Jewish Christians to follow Jesus' moral standard for the Sabbath.

However, the Jews themselves for a very long time taught that Gentiles not in Jewish households aren't supposed to keep Sabbath, because Sabbath was given to the Jews, not the Gentiles. A Gentile traveler had to keep it while in Israel, but didn't have to keep it outside of Israel if he didn't convert to Judaism. And in Acts 15, Gentiles who heard the Gospel were told they did not have to become Jews in order to become fully Christian. There were some laws that they were told they needed to keep, but the prohibition of all work on Sabbath was not one of them. And in other passages, that our Sabbath rest is in Christ himself (Colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 4:2-11).

I've met some amazing, lovely, Born-Again Christians, and they are so positive, so enthusiastic and loving... They really seem to have connected with something so powerful.

Why then go and spoil it all by being so condemning of LGBT people? How come they get slammed with the Old Law? This is really a disturbing blot on an otherwise loving religious community.
In Acts 15, sexual immorality was condemned, and homosexual behavior is a form of sexual immorality. Jews also teach that homosexual behavior is sinful for both Jews and Gentiles. God judged Gentile nations for among other things, homosexual acts. Homosexual acts, fornication, and adultery have always been sinful.

Now, if a Christian is more forgiving of fornication or adultery than homosexual acts, or if that Christian obsesses over homosexual acts as if those who commit them are worse than anyone else, or would rather associate with a heterosexual prostitute than with a celibate gay person, and especially if that Christian organizes or participates in extrajudicial violence against a gay person, then that Christian is showing evidence of sin in his or her heart. Jesus wasn't about any of that.
 
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Sketcher

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But my question is about why do Christians scream and shout about gay sex, but e.g. near silence on divorce and remarriage... why the double standard?
That shouldn't happen, but there are Christians that speak against them both, and I am one of them.
 
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