Progressive policies save lives

rambot · Oct 14, 2020

This thread title feels like a dirty little secret to scream but I think it's something to finally confront. I recall someone had posted a link to a study that showed a CLEAR correlation between progressive state policy and life expectancy in those states. If someone remembers that, boy, it'd be swell to throw in here.

But really, I want us to take the time to consider this little gif here. Now, It starts later in June. I can see why that start may seem conspiratorial because it a far more even distribution between red and blue states.
However, in my mind, the science and policy decisions began to crystalize as "smart recommendations" as it was also around this time that the reaction and panic was starting to settle somewhat. I would note the very primary colour by the end of this gif.

https://i.imgur.com/CAJuKI8.mp4

I would DESPERATELY like to know the reason why these infection levels are indicators of "Successfully dealing with the pandemic". I need to understand why this wing of governance is preferable to one that tries to help keep you safe.

Occams Barber · Oct 14, 2020

rambot said:
This thread title feels like a dirty little secret to scream but I think it's something to finally confront. I recall someone had posted a link to a study that showed a CLEAR correlation between progressive state policy and life expectancy in those states. If someone remembers that, boy, it'd be swell to throw in here.

But really, I want us to take the time to consider this little gif here. Now, It starts later in June. I can see why that start may seem conspiratorial because it a far more even distribution between red and blue states.
However, in my mind, the science and policy decisions began to crystalize as "smart recommendations" as it was also around this time that the reaction and panic was starting to settle somewhat. I would note the very primary colour by the end of this gif.

https://i.imgur.com/CAJuKI8.mp4

I would DESPERATELY like to know the reason why these infection levels are indicators of "Successfully dealing with the pandemic". I need to understand why this wing of governance is preferable to one that tries to help keep you safe.

The end point of the gif was included in a thread a couple of days ago (not by me). For the sake of clarity this is what @rambot is talking about.
OB

HTacianas · Oct 14, 2020

rambot said:
This thread title feels like a dirty little secret to scream but I think it's something to finally confront. I recall someone had posted a link to a study that showed a CLEAR correlation between progressive state policy and life expectancy in those states. If someone remembers that, boy, it'd be swell to throw in here.

But really, I want us to take the time to consider this little gif here. Now, It starts later in June. I can see why that start may seem conspiratorial because it a far more even distribution between red and blue states.
However, in my mind, the science and policy decisions began to crystalize as "smart recommendations" as it was also around this time that the reaction and panic was starting to settle somewhat. I would note the very primary colour by the end of this gif.

https://i.imgur.com/CAJuKI8.mp4

I would DESPERATELY like to know the reason why these infection levels are indicators of "Successfully dealing with the pandemic". I need to understand why this wing of governance is preferable to one that tries to help keep you safe.

Does the "wing of governance" that keeps us safe include the months-long warnings the government gave us against wearing masks at the beginning of the outbreak? Is that one reason the graphic you linked to only begins in June so it doesn't account for all the cases that were spread early on in the blue States? Does it include such things as Gretchen Whitmer condemning protesters not for assembling or protesting, but for the things they were saying, such as singling out "anti-choice signs" they were carrying, then only to have her mere weeks later marching among thousands of protesters who seemingly said all the right things? Does that include the 1200 "scientists" who signed an open letter in support of thousands of protesters gathering so long as they were gathering for an approved purpose?

Where do we go to find the proper "wing of governance" when we are repeatedly lied to by both government officials and especially the press? Foe that matter, how are we to even trust the graphic itself? Do we believe it now only to find out later it's yet another fraud or do we begin early and disregard it now?

Can you clarify for us what exactly you mean by "wing of governance"?

Gole · Oct 14, 2020

I can only speak for myself and generally why I prefer living in a red state (and I've lived in both red and blue).

In a red state, I

Am left alone more.
Don't have to surrender as much of my labor to taxes.
Don't have as many busybodies trying to govern every little facet of my life.
Don't have to deal as much with the tyranny of good intentions.
Generallly perceive that government is better managed.

In short, I perceive that I am freerer, and I prefer more freedom over more safety. As an adult, I can manage my own affairs, make my own decisions, and build my own life. I can make cost/benefit decisions without government nattering, and I know how to live responsibly and find out what I need to know to make good decisions.

Basically I am free to live my life without being taxed to death (California), lectured about what I eat (New York), endure corrupt government (Illinois), or drive on the worst roads I have ever seen (Massachustets).

Every state has their problems. None are perfect. There is a balance between total freedom (anarchy), and total safety (non-existant utopia). If someone else prefers a "safer" state, then go for it. The conflict comes in when those safe blue states that have problems of corruption, incompetence, etc. try to lecture the red states how to do things. We are speaking in generalities so don't get me wrong, not every blue state is poorly run. Not every red state is flawlessly run.

BTW, as a side note. The graph doesn't take into account the long term toll of the "safety" the blue states are providing in COVID. There will be long term consequences of the lock-downs that won't get measured as part of COVID but will show up in domestic abuse, mental health, substance addiction, poverty, etc. It will take years for those impacts to show. For example, in my red state where the lock down was mercifully short and not as severe as compared to NY or CA, an oncologist I know has said that his practice is down 40% for women getting exams for the year. That is a lot of women who will potentially have their lives cut short because someone shut everything down "for our safety."

Just something to think about.

rambot · Oct 15, 2020

HTacianas said:
Does the "wing of governance" that keeps us safe include the months-long warnings the government gave us against wearing masks at the beginning of the outbreak

18 of 19 states that don't have mask mandate are republican. The "months of against wearing masks" is a figment of your imagination. CDC recommended a mask on April 3.
Not sure even what that point has to do with the argument really.

Is that one reason the graphic you linked to only begins in June so it doesn't account for all the cases that were spread early on in the blue States?

yes. Me showing the link is such a conspiracy that I provided what I felt was a decent rationale.

Does it include such things as Gretchen Whitmer condemning protesters not for assembling or protesting, but for the things they were saying, such as singling out "anti-choice signs" they were carrying, then only to have her mere weeks later marching among thousands of protesters who seemingly said all the right things?

oh look! A story unrelated to policy decisions.
What policies was she enacting?

Does that include the 1200 "scientists" who signed an open letter in support of thousands of protesters gathering so long as they were gathering for an approved purpose?

I'm unaware that scientists chose policy and didn't just recommend. I mean, it's not Florida where they disregard science altogether but its a medium.

Where do we go to find the proper "wing of governance" when we are repeatedly lied to by both government officials and especially the press?

Two things
1. What does the science say?
2. What is the compassionate response?

I'd also suggest that there is a difference between lying and information and research and knowledge changing over time

Foe that matter, how are we to even trust the graphic itself? Do we believe it now only to find out later it's yet another fraud or do we begin early and disregard it now?

oh..you jumped the shark there.

Can you clarify for us what exactly you mean by "wing of governance"?

Yes. The republican party.

I just don't get this style of response. A feeble attempt at undermining a pretty clear message that data is showing.

I'll tell yeah, I disagree pretty fundamentally with Gole but I respect his position. Having a government that doesn't mess in your affairs, I see the logic there. I mean in those states where government doesn't meddle in your affairs there are some pretty significant and not unimportant affects from that;. Poor performance in education, short life spans, poor healthcare, and, as seen here, rapidly increasing covid rates.

I get it. You'd rather FEEL free than be safe and having a government that enriches your life.

I disagree with those priorities but I appreciate that you don't try to turn conservative governments into something they are not which is empathetic to the needs of voters.

To counter I'd argue that the graph also doesn't take into account the incredible toll the "long haulers" also have to suffer through.

As for you oncologists example, in sorry but it made me sigh a bit as it is likely that the ONLY reason those women aren't getting screened is that they can't afford it.
Which again speaks to your broken healthcare system. Im in Canada and who
while im sure there has been a dip, it would not be lockdown related but more having to allocate resources differently.

chad kincham · Oct 15, 2020

HTacianas said:
Does the "wing of governance" that keeps us safe include the months-long warnings the government gave us against wearing masks at the beginning of the outbreak? Is that one reason the graphic you linked to only begins in June so it doesn't account for all the cases that were spread early on in the blue States? Does it include such things as Gretchen Whitmer condemning protesters not for assembling or protesting, but for the things they were saying, such as singling out "anti-choice signs" they were carrying, then only to have her mere weeks later marching among thousands of protesters who seemingly said all the right things? Does that include the 1200 "scientists" who signed an open letter in support of thousands of protesters gathering so long as they were gathering for an approved purpose?

Where do we go to find the proper "wing of governance" when we are repeatedly lied to by both government officials and especially the press? Foe that matter, how are we to even trust the graphic itself? Do we believe it now only to find out later it's yet another fraud or do we begin early and disregard it now?

Can you clarify for us what exactly you mean by "wing of governance"?

Where the stats from NY, Oregon, Massachusetts, etc? It shows one really blue state.

chad kincham · Oct 15, 2020

Occams Barber said:
The end point of the gif was included in a thread a couple of days ago (not by me). For the sake of clarity this is what @rambot is talking about.
OB

View attachment 286368

There’s exactly one deep blue state shown. Where’s Oregon, Washington, Massachusetts, New York? Illinois?

NY state, had 432,000 cases and 32,000 deaths. It should be on the chart.
This is a good example of selective and deceptive statistics by partisan ideologues.

chad kincham · Oct 15, 2020

Occams Barber said:
The end point of the gif was included in a thread a couple of days ago (not by me). For the sake of clarity this is what @rambot is talking about.
OB

View attachment 286368

There’s exactly one deep blue state shown. Where’s Oregon, Washington, Massachusetts, New York? Illinois?

NY state, had 432,000 cases and 32,000 deaths. It should be on the chart. This is a good example of selective and deceptive statistics by partisan ideologues.

Occams Barber · Oct 15, 2020

chad kincham said:
There’s exactly one deep blue state shown. Where’s Oregon, Washington, Massachusetts, New York? Illinois?

NY state, had 432,000 cases and 32,000 deaths. It should be on the chart.
This is a good example of selective and deceptive statistics by partisan ideologues.

This isn't about absolute deaths or cases. It's cases per million. This means it takes state populations into account and is a fair means of comparison.

OB

Nithavela · Oct 15, 2020

HTacianas said:
Does the "wing of governance" that keeps us safe include the months-long warnings the government gave us against wearing masks at the beginning of the outbreak?

I can see why that might be a difficult thing to understand for you, but it's generally seen as a good thing to change your opinion when presented with new evidence.

dqhall · Oct 15, 2020

rambot said:
This thread title feels like a dirty little secret to scream but I think it's something to finally confront. I recall someone had posted a link to a study that showed a CLEAR correlation between progressive state policy and life expectancy in those states. If someone remembers that, boy, it'd be swell to throw in here.

But really, I want us to take the time to consider this little gif here. Now, It starts later in June. I can see why that start may seem conspiratorial because it a far more even distribution between red and blue states.
However, in my mind, the science and policy decisions began to crystalize as "smart recommendations" as it was also around this time that the reaction and panic was starting to settle somewhat. I would note the very primary colour by the end of this gif.

https://i.imgur.com/CAJuKI8.mp4

I would DESPERATELY like to know the reason why these infection levels are indicators of "Successfully dealing with the pandemic". I need to understand why this wing of governance is preferable to one that tries to help keep you safe.

The blue states emphasized mask wearing and social distancing. They had fewer infections.

rambot · Oct 15, 2020

chad kincham said:
There’s exactly one deep blue state shown. Where’s Oregon, Washington, Massachusetts, New York? Illinois?

NY state, had 432,000 cases and 32,000 deaths. It should be on the chart.
This is a good example of selective and deceptive statistics by partisan ideologues.

Yeah.....infections per millions. And we all remember how hard NY was hit right?

Kinda makes you think about how bad things are going in the Red States.

essentialsaltes · Oct 15, 2020

chad kincham said:
There’s exactly one deep blue state shown. Where’s Oregon, Washington, Massachusetts, New York? Illinois?

The data shown is for cases after June 1st. So the first wave is missing. Nevertheless, if you add in the first wave, the situation is very similar. In total cases per million, there are only 3 states that voted for Clinton in the top 20: NV (#14), NY(#19), IL(#20).

Fantine · Oct 15, 2020

You could expand that by showing how low the U.S. is ranked in categories such as education, health, life expectancy in comparison to other countries. The only category we seem to be high in is gun violence.

chad kincham · Oct 15, 2020

Occams Barber said:
This isn't about absolute deaths or cases. It's cases per million. This means it takes state populations into account and is a fair means of comparison.

OB

No, it’s not, when only one blue state is used to “prove” progressive states are safer from COVID19, and a little research shows NY, a very progressive state, leads the country in COVID19 infections and deaths.

New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and Connecticut lead the country in COVID19 infections, they are far ahead of Florida, and they are deep blue and progressive states - thus the chart is skewed and deceptive, on purpose of course - and the truth is the opposite of what the chart shows.

Hers MY chart posting:

U.S. COVID-19 death rate by state | Statista

Occams Barber said:
This isn't about absolute deaths or cases. It's cases per million. This means it takes state populations into account and is a fair means of comparison.

OB

chad kincham · Oct 15, 2020

essentialsaltes said:
The data shown is for cases after June 1st. So the first wave is missing. Nevertheless, if you add in the first wave, the situation is very similar. In total cases per million, there are only 3 states that voted for Clinton in the top 20: NV (#14), NY(#19), IL(#20).

Only one blue state is used to “prove” progressive states are safer from COVID19, and a little research shows NY, a very progressive state, leads the country in COVID19 infections and deaths.

New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and Connecticut lead the country in COVID19 infections, they are far ahead of Florida, and they are deep blue and progressive states - thus the chart is skewed and deceptive, on purpose of course - and the truth I the opposite of what the chart shows.

Hers MY chart posting:

U.S. COVID-19 death rate by state | Statista

chad kincham · Oct 15, 2020

Fantine said:
You could expand that by showing how low the U.S. is ranked in categories such as education, health, life expectancy in comparison to other countries. The only category we seem to be high in is gun violence.

Before COVID came and the country was shut down on the advice of all the medical experts, which crashed the economy, Trump’s economic plan of: a corporate tax cut designed to stop businesses from leaving the USA and taking jobs with them; coupled with cutting bureaucratic regulations that made it hard to start, run, or expand a business, resulted in the strongest economy in the world and the lowest unemployment rate in fifty years, with a median income increase of 4,000 dollars in just three years.

Showing job statistics after the nation was locked down and shut down, like most every nation did because the so-called experts said it was needed, is the epitome of dirty partisan politics.

essentialsaltes · Oct 15, 2020

chad kincham said:
Only one blue state is used to “prove” progressive states are safer from COVID19, and a little research shows NY, a very progressive state, leads the country in COVID19 infections and deaths.

Infections and deaths are two different things. The video and image are about infections.

New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and Connecticut lead the country in COVID19 infections

That is not true.

Your link is about deaths. Yes, NJ and NY are at the top of that list. This is mostly from the first wave, when we didn't know what was going on and didn't have good treatment plans.

Arc F1 · Oct 15, 2020

rambot said:
This thread title feels like a dirty little secret to scream but I think it's something to finally confront. I recall someone had posted a link to a study that showed a CLEAR correlation between progressive state policy and life expectancy in those states. If someone remembers that, boy, it'd be swell to throw in here.

But really, I want us to take the time to consider this little gif here. Now, It starts later in June. I can see why that start may seem conspiratorial because it a far more even distribution between red and blue states.
However, in my mind, the science and policy decisions began to crystalize as "smart recommendations" as it was also around this time that the reaction and panic was starting to settle somewhat. I would note the very primary colour by the end of this gif.

https://i.imgur.com/CAJuKI8.mp4

I would DESPERATELY like to know the reason why these infection levels are indicators of "Successfully dealing with the pandemic". I need to understand why this wing of governance is preferable to one that tries to help keep you safe.

What the chart doesn't tell you is that in republican states it's only the democrats that are getting sick. Why are we missing some states? I don't see Ohio in there.

rambot · Oct 15, 2020

Arc F1 said:
What the chart doesn't tell you is that in republican states it's only the democrats that are getting sick

Well that may be the most insane and unproveable claim I've read on the internet today. I would love to know where you heard that just so I know which website to add to my list.

.

Why are we missing some states? I don't see Ohio in there.

Yeah....I don't know if you picked up on it but it only showed the top 20 (or so) most affected states. So I guess Ohio, on a per million basis, has a low rate of COVID growth.

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