Traditionalist and non-traditionalist Catholics

chevyontheriver · Sep 30, 2020

Fenwick said:
Yep the Crusades, while a noble and righteous cause, had consequences back home socially, politically, fiscally, etc. But there was recovery also.

Believe me, I do wish I was born in a different age. Maybe the late 1887 instead of 1987 so I could've come of age in the early 1900s in the golden age of rail travel, before all the distractions of entertainment media (which is ironic of me to say since it's my profession, my livelihood today). But I digress.

I know every era has it's own set of problems, but the diabolical movements of 2020 and perhaps the past 25-50 years certainly make me feel as though I prefer almost any other era. What I think the radtrads are right about is that the faith was noticeably more unified, stronger, prior to the reforms of Vatican II. There were still apostates and heretics and lapsed Catholics to be sure, but the changes that came after the council have really ruptured and fragmented things in a different way.

Indeed. But we were born for THIS time. Let us remain faithful in the time remaining.

Virgil the Roman · Sep 30, 2020

I'd suggest attending a Byzantine or Ukrainian rite parish that celebrates the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostum.

Dansiph · Sep 30, 2020

Virgil the Roman said:
I'd suggest attending a Byzantine or Ukrainian rite parish that celebrates the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostum.

I don't think there are many in the UK. Why do you suggest them though? Also that's a great excerpt from Psalm 25!

Virgil the Roman · Sep 30, 2020

I would indeed suggest them.

Dansiph · Sep 30, 2020

Virgil the Roman said:
I would indeed suggest them. Or perhaps, attending an Orthodox parish if that is viable alternative for you.

But Orthodox don't believe the same as Catholics on many things?

Basil the Great · Sep 30, 2020

Aspzan said:
But Orthodox don't believe the same as Catholics on many things?

The Catholic Church does recognize the Orthodox sacraments as valid and even allows Orthodox to receive Communion in Catholic Churches, though the Orthodox are forbidden to do so by their own Church leaders.

Dansiph · Sep 30, 2020

Basil the Great said:
The Catholic Church does recognize the Orthodox sacraments as valid and even allows Orthodox to receive Communion in Catholic Churches, though the Orthodox are forbidden to do so by their own Church leaders.

That's one-sided. Although that irritates me I see something Christ-like about the Catholic position on it.

I would rather go to a Catholic Church. It doesn't seem like a good start to go to an Eastern Orthdox church.

thecolorsblend · Sep 30, 2020

Aspzan said:
Hello,

I have been reading about Catholicism. It wasn't long before I noticed a "divide" of sorts between traditionalist views and non-traditionalist views.

I am asking if anyone has information about both and also what exists in between.

Today, I saw an article about radical traditionalists or "RadTrads". I also found a book called Infiltration by Dr Taylor Marshall which claims that the Catholic Church has been infiltrated with the plan to "subvert the Catholic Church from within". This is all confusing.

There's all sorts of stances on this subject and I can't get a clear understanding. I'm not sure how to move forward. I got the advice from someone on a livestream to "Get a broader knowledge base of the Catholic Church before moving forward." That's helpful but I also want to tackle the issue. Is this even that big of an issue?

Best I can tell, the Catholic world is basically divided between liberals (the Fr. James Martin), conservatives (broadly Pope John Paul II), trads (somewhat Pope Benedict XVI) and radtrads (there are all sorts here).

"Conservative" and "liberal" in this context do not relate to politics.

In relation to radtrads, the definition I see most frequently is that they generally have the same religious preferences as the trads but the radtrads are also essentially sedevacantists. Trads may or may not like some aspects of Vatican II whereas radtrads tend to reject Vatican II entirely.

Dansiph · Sep 30, 2020

Basil the Great said:
The Catholic Church does recognize the Orthodox sacraments as valid and even allows Orthodox to receive Communion in Catholic Churches, though the Orthodox are forbidden to do so by their own Church leaders.

Can a Catholic Ever Attend an Orthodox Liturgy Instead of Sunday Mass?

According to this it does not fulfil the Sunday obligation. Meaning you should not go to an Orthodox Mass while a Catholic one is available on a Sunday. I can't highlight and copy any text on that webpage so I had to send the link.

chevyontheriver · Sep 30, 2020

Aspzan said:
That's one-sided. Although that irritates me I see something Christ-like about the Catholic position on it.

I would rather go to a Catholic Church. It doesn't seem like a good start to go to an Eastern Orthdox church.

We Catholics have a lot of respect for the Orthodox. For the most part it isn't reciprocated. But we still respect them.

You can experience Catholic worship in it's diversity by attending any of the Rites. We have 23 of them, not all of them common, but all fully Catholic. The Catholic Church and Her 23 Liturgical Rites | Defenders of the Catholic Faith | Hosted by Stephen K. Ray

Dansiph · Sep 30, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
We Catholics have a lot of respect for the Orthodox. For the most part it isn't reciprocated. But we still respect them.

You can experience Catholic worship in it's diversity by attending any of the Rites. We have 23 of them, not all of them common, but all fully Catholic. The Catholic Church and Her 23 Liturgical Rites | Defenders of the Catholic Faith | Hosted by Stephen K. Ray

That's what I meant by Christ-like. My initial reaction is to reciprocate the Orthdox attitude back at them. That would be wrong though.

Even though I'm not Catholic yet I still have a respect for Orthdoxy. It was a shock to me when I learned they don't feel the same for the most part. My plan is to become Catholic although I still have some stuff bookmarked comparing Catholicism to Eastern Orthodoxy. The other day I read their perspective on it.

chevyontheriver · Sep 30, 2020

Aspzan said:
That's what I meant by Christ-like. My initial reaction is to reciprocate the Orthdox attitude back at them. That would be wrong though.

Even though I'm not Catholic yet I still have a respect for Orthdoxy. It was a shock to me when I learned they don't feel the same for the most part. My plan is to become Catholic although I still have some stuff bookmarked comparing Catholicism to Eastern Orthodoxy. The other day I read their perspective on it.

In college I studied the Fathers, mostly the Greek Fathers, and among them lots of hours reading the Cappadocians and John Chrysostom and Athanasius. They were great. They were formative for me. And I kind of thought that modern Orthodox would be somewhat like them. Boy was I surprised. So while I respect them for their heritage, they like there distance from Catholics. I don't expect that short of the second coming we have a chance of unity in my lifetime. Oh well. Their sacraments are valid.

Dansiph · Sep 30, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
In college I studied the Fathers, mostly the Greek Fathers, and among them lots of hours reading the Cappadocians and John Chrysostom and Athanasius. They were great. They were formative for me. And I kind of thought that modern Orthodox would be somewhat like them. Boy was I surprised. So while I respect them for their heritage, they like there distance from Catholics. I don't expect that short of the second coming we have a chance of unity in my lifetime. Oh well. Their sacraments are valid.

What do you mean by the modern Orthodox are not like the Greek Fathers?

chevyontheriver · Sep 30, 2020

Aspzan said:
What do you mean by the modern Orthodox are not like the Greek Fathers?

I think what I mean is that I felt a communion with the Greek Fathers, a discipleship that I had with them teaching me. I don't have that with the Modern Orthodox. I get mostly cold pricklies. Of course the Fathers can't quite say 'no' to me, but they did provide a steep learning curve. They helped me breathe with both lungs, an analogy the Catholics use but the Orthodox seem to almost totally reject.

zippy2006 · Sep 30, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
I don't have that with the Modern Orthodox. I get mostly cold pricklies.

Who are you comparing to the renowned theologians of old? Internet posters or Orthodox leaders like Kallistos Ware, Anthony Bloom, or Hierotheos of Nafpaktos? Personally I find many modern Orthodox teachers to be illuminating.

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Oct 1, 2020

Fenwick said:
Yep the Crusades, while a noble and righteous cause, had consequences back home socially, politically, fiscally, etc. But there was recovery also.

Believe me, I do wish I was born in a different age. Maybe the late 1887 instead of 1987 so I could've come of age in the early 1900s in the golden age of rail travel, before all the distractions of entertainment media (which is ironic of me to say since it's my profession, my livelihood today). But I digress.

I know every era has it's own set of problems, but the diabolical movements of 2020 and perhaps the past 25-50 years certainly make me feel as though I prefer almost any other era. What I think the radtrads are right about is that the faith was noticeably more unified, stronger, prior to the reforms of Vatican II. There were still apostates and heretics and lapsed Catholics to be sure, but the changes that came after the council have really ruptured and fragmented things in a different way.

To be born i 1887? No thanks! The Spanish flue, two world wars spiced with the economic depression in the thirties. I get what you're saying, but I'd rather not live through the twentieth century.

chevyontheriver · Oct 1, 2020

zippy2006 said:
Who are you comparing to the renowned theologians of old? Internet posters or Orthodox leaders like Kallistos Ware, Anthony Bloom, or Hierotheos of Nafpaktos? Personally I find many modern Orthodox teachers to be illuminating.

Mostly the folks I meet in TAW or on other parts of Christian Forums. You make a good point. I become frustrated when these guys fall short of the giants who went before them. I suppose I am expecting way too much of them. Still, it irks me when they tell me my baptism is invalid. That was what the Donatists did,

Dansiph · Oct 1, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
They helped me breathe with both lungs, an analogy the Catholics use but the Orthodox seem to almost totally reject.

Sometimes the Catholic postion on things frustrates me. It seems to me the Catholic church IS both lungs and the Orthodox can sometimes be used as some sort of oxygen aid. To call them the second lung decreases the importance of the Catholic Church. At least that's how it seems to me.

VincentIII · Oct 1, 2020

For the most part, I was happier before I became aware of these factions within the Church. I came up as a Novus Ordo Catholic. I knew Mass used to be celebrated in Latin, but didn't know how different its form was until I saw it on YouTube. I like it and look forward to attending a TLM. I too appreciate tradition and am concerned about valuable things being lost when tradition is modernized. On the other hand, the Church does form councils of learned people to ensure such updates are valid. Arguments can be made for both sides. At the end of the day, I appreciate having both.

zippy2006 · Oct 1, 2020

Aspzan said:
Sometimes the Catholic postion on things frustrates me. It seems to me the Catholic church IS both lungs and the Orthodox can sometimes be used as some sort of oxygen aid. To call them the second lung decreases the importance of the Catholic Church. At least that's how it seems to me.

This is just a basic tension in post-schism Christianity. One of the places JPII uses the image of "two lungs" is, naturally, in Ut Unum Sint ("That they may be one"). This is of course a reference to John 17:21...

If Christians are divided, then no one community of Christians can claim to be the whole, completeness of Christianity in itself. If Christians are not divided and one Church is Christianity in its fullness, then they must deny that every other "Christian" community is truly Christian.

Orthodoxy leans towards the latter approach. Liberal Protestantism leans towards the former approach. Catholicism seeks a balance between the two, and says that Christianity "subsists in" the Catholic Church, but also exists in incomplete and watered-down ways in other Christian communities (cf. Lumen Gentium).

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