Should we read Apocrypha?

friend of said:

I can agree. I'm just worried that these books will slosh around in my brain and I'll interpret them as the word of God as I go about my life, which I dont want to do. I dont want to think of them as the word of God at all. It might confuse me idk

Click to expand...

Thats pretty close to how I feel about it also.

TexFire316 said:

Enoch, Jasher, and Jubilees were studied by the apostles, and even (gasp) the church, until our leaders grew weary of trying to explain them to pagans, and when these books interfered with the church agenda, they banned them. But never fear, the church added more books to the Scriptures, and commanded us to accept them as the Word of God. So, in a way, it all evened out.

Click to expand...

Enoch enjoyed some reading, though it was never widely recognized as Scripture anywhere except in Ethiopia, and the same to an extent with Jubilees. Only the Ethiopian Church has ever taken these texts with enough seriousness to regard them as Scripture--elsewhere these books were read because they were fascinating and helped fill in some information from the period in which they were written.

The so called book of Jasher has been lost for a very long time. It was never read in the ancient Church, because it was lost long before Christ.

The two texts that can be found on the internet that get called "Jasher" are much more recent, and have nothing to do with the ancient, now entirely lost text. The first is a medieval/early modern Jewish midrash called the Sefer haYashar ("Book of Jasher"), the earliest mention of this Jewish midrashic text dates to the 16th century, but may be older (like 9th century, so high middle ages). The other text that calls itself "Jasher" that one can find on the internet is a modern forgery, this Pseudo-Jasher was written by Jacob Ilive around 1751 in England, which he tried to pass off as authentic. It was, of course, a forgery, and actual scholars were able to easily recognize that it was a forgery, and so Mr. Ilive ended up arrested and thrown in prison for it--because it was a crime.

There is no known Jasher text, either known from early Christian antiquity, or anytime throughout the last two millennia of Christianity. As such it would be impossible for any of the fathers to have read it, let alone to have used it for anything.

Enoch and Jubilees, however, did enjoy a small amount of enjoyment--but were never really taken seriously, with the notable exception of the historic Ethiopian Church. As far as I'm aware, the only patristic source that goes so far as to call either "Scripture" is Tertullian, who refers to Enoch as such. However, given the controversial nature of Tertullian (having abandoned orthodox Christianity and converted to the Montanist heresy) he is not necessarily the most reliable source. So Tertullian always needs to be read very critically and contrasted and compared with the fathers who are far more reliable.

All of this said, it's important to understand that as best as I can tell, this thread isn't about books like Enoch or Jubilees, but is specifically about the Deuterocanonical books. This is the difficulty in using the word "apocrypha", it is entirely too ambiguous.

-CryptoLutheran

Basil the Great said:

Your statement that the Gospel of Thomas being Gnostic is in dispute by some Biblical researchers.

Click to expand...

Thomas lacks the some of the more obvious qualities of Gnostic literature, for example we don't get the mythology in Thomas that we do in many other Gnostic works--with stories of monads, archons, and emanations and what not.

But if one is familiar with Gnosticism as a broad religious movement from antiquity, and some of the general Gnostic impulses, then Thomas very much fits the bill.

The text presents itself as a list of secret sayings which "the living Jesus" gave to Thomas, who is treated as Jesus' divine twin (using the wordplay of what Thomas' name means).

"These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down."

That's how the text opens, that these are:

1) Secret sayings spoken by the
2) "Living Jesus" which are written down by
3) Didymos Judas Thomas

Didymos is the Greek translation of the Aramaic Thomas (Toma), the idea of a divine twin or a divine paring (syzygy) is a constant Gnostic theme. Likewise is the concept of secret knowledge, secret teachings which are given only to a special individual or group. The use of the phrase "the living Jesus" certainly doesn't sound out of place generally, but assuming that this simply refers to the resurrected Lord who is alive is an orthodox view which is very likely not what is meant here--but likely refers to the mystical, disembodied "Jesus" that is common in various Gnostic theologies.

And then, the text gets even clearer about its Gnostic point, with Logion 1,

"And he said, 'Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death.'"

Life and death, salvation, is a matter of knowledge--gnosis--of spiritual enlightenment. One needs to understand the secrets, the mysteries, the esoteric wisdom contained in the sayings to liberate the soul, to save the soul.

I think there really is no doubt that Thomas, as we have it, is very much a Gnostic work. It presents itself as Gnostic, its impulse, its character is Gnostic--even if it is not overtly Gnostic in the way many other Gnostic works are.

Having said all that, it is entirely possible that the Thomas which we have today--the 3rd century text discovered at Nag Hammadi--is the result of taking an older text and "Gnosticizing" it. It's possible that there is a kernal there in the text that really does descend from a more orthodox work--perhaps nothing more than a list of sayings or logion, comparable to that which tradition says Matthew himself had written down originally in Aramaic, or to the hypothetical Q-document.

But in the form we have it, it is very definitely Gnostic.

-CryptoLutheran

friend of said:

Should we read the Apocryphal books as protestants or should we leave them alone?

Click to expand...

Sure. It can't hurt to understand what some of the inter-testamental Jewish thinking was that was going on during the few centuries before Christ and up through the 1st century A.D.

It's no biggie.

ViaCrucis said:

Enoch enjoyed some reading, though it was never widely recognized as Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

So claims every Christian. However, Jewish historians have a different story. And I know it's hard to believe, Jesus and His apostles, were Jewish except for one. But these recognized the Torah as Scripture alone, then the Prophets, Psalms, the Writings, and etc.

We have long since become highly edumacated.

friend of said:

Should we read the Apocryphal books as protestants or should we leave them alone?

Click to expand...

Sure! Since they were not given by divine inspiration and are not part of the canon or standard of the Scriptures, they have no authority for the church of God and should not be recognized or used in any way different from other human writings.

Some of them make interesting literature. you can read them like you would a novel

TexFire316 said:

Enoch, Jasher, and Jubilees were studied by the apostles, and even (gasp) the church, until our leaders grew weary of trying to explain them to pagans, and when these books interfered with the church agenda, they banned them. But never fear, the church added more books to the Scriptures, and commanded us to accept them as the Word of God. So, in a way, it all evened out.

Click to expand...

I
Which books were added?

Jonaitis said:

Sure! Since they were not given by divine inspiration and are not part of the canon or standard of the Scriptures, they have no authority for the church of God and should not be recognized or used in any way different from other human writings.

Click to expand...

Jonaitis,

Good to see you! I hope you're well and in good health. Its been a while.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:

I
Which books were added?

Click to expand...

Most of the New Testament. Other than the gospels, and the book of Revelation, I wonder what Paul and Peter might have said about everything that they said and did would have been taken as the written Word of God. The church system decided this, not the apostles, and not the Messiah. Yet today, we have hundreds of different sects of assemblies arguing about these very books.
The book of Revelation was given by the Father, to the Son, and on down to us. The gospels show the life and saving work of our Messiah. But where did the Father, or the Son, tell the church leaders to delete books like Enoch, and add books like Romans?
Don't get me wrong, these books are nice to have in day to day living, but are they better than the book of Jasher?
And gasp, are they more important than the books of Moses?

This is something that every believer should ask himself / herself. We shouldn't be taking the word of men over the Word of God. Nor should we permit men to tell us what God is trying to tell us.

TexFire316 said:

Most of the New Testament. Other than the gospels, and the book of Revelation, I wonder what Paul and Peter might have said about everything that they said and did would have been taken as the written Word of God. The church system decided this, not the apostles, and not the Messiah. Yet today, we have hundreds of different sects of assemblies arguing about these very books.
The book of Revelation was given by the Father, to the Son, and on down to us. The gospels show the life and saving work of our Messiah. But where did the Father, or the Son, tell the church leaders to delete books like Enoch, and add books like Romans?
Don't get me wrong, these books are nice to have in day to day living, but are they better than the book of Jasher?
And gasp, are they more important than the books of Moses?

This is something that every believer should ask himself / herself. We shouldn't be taking the word of men over the Word of God. Nor should we permit men to tell us what God is trying to tell us.

Click to expand...

Romans is essential because it explains the finished work of the cross, the imputed righteousness we have as sons of God's and how to obey God through the power of the holy spirit

I think Enoch is a good book of history but it isn't life changing for us in the same way Romans is

I mean Romans 10 tells us how t be saved? Enoch etc dont

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:

I mean Romans 10 tells us how t be saved? Enoch etc dont

Click to expand...

God's salvation plan is spelled throughout the Scripture, beginning at the fall of man. There are a lot of people in the church that chanted a chant, prayed a prayer, and firmly believe that they have just purchased fire insurance. They want nothing to do with the Father (the mean God of the Old Testament), are terrified of the coming of the Father and Son at the end of days (not the rapture), because they will be ashamed.
Yet, they have this prayer that they prayed. Don't take me wrong, I am not trying to minumize the Roman's road to salvation. It spells it out perfectly, idiot proof, so to speak. They don't have to obey what has already been spelled out in the Old Testament. After all, they have fire insurance.
All of these books, the same books that the apostles read, give vivid details about the Father, the Son of Man, Jesus, and the Spirit of God (who is not a genie in the lamp). And they also provide details about the enemy. Enemies from the spiritual realm as well as the physical realm.
The people of God have been taught to shy away from these books, just to whisper the name of them is enough to cast one into the pit. What does the pit even mean? Is it a real place? You find this answer in those books.
It took me several times of reading them before I could even begin to understand what they were saying, and helped me put faces with the names, so to speak, of the events described in the Bible.
Read the books y'all. Believe me, when you stumble and gasp (and you will), then set the book down for a while and ask God to explain. And He will, maybe not right away, but He will.

The most sacred part of the Scripture still begins at the first 5 books. These tells us who God is, and what He wants and expects of us, His people. And these first 5 books also tells us that God has a plan, and He WILL redeem His people through His Son, Jesus.

I don't recommend these 'other books' to just anyone. But, if you are on this forum, reading this thread, then you have already shown to the Father that you want to learn. He will not load you up with more than you can handle. And the Master will not leave us hanging either. Where we go, Jesus goes.

Whew! I'm out of breath

TexFire316 said:

God's salvation plan is spelled throughout the Scripture, beginning at the fall of man. There are a lot of people in the church that chanted a chant, prayed a prayer, and firmly believe that they have just purchased fire insurance. They want nothing to do with the Father (the mean God of the Old Testament), are terrified of the coming of the Father and Son at the end of days (not the rapture), because they will be ashamed.
Yet, they have this prayer that they prayed. Don't take me wrong, I am not trying to minumize the Roman's road to salvation. It spells it out perfectly, idiot proof, so to speak. They don't have to obey what has already been spelled out in the Old Testament. After all, they have fire insurance.
All of these books, the same books that the apostles read, give vivid details about the Father, the Son of Man, Jesus, and the Spirit of God (who is not a genie in the lamp). And they also provide details about the enemy. Enemies from the spiritual realm as well as the physical realm.
The people of God have been taught to shy away from these books, just to whisper the name of them is enough to cast one into the pit. What does the pit even mean? Is it a real place? You find this answer in those books.
It took me several times of reading them before I could even begin to understand what they were saying, and helped me put faces with the names, so to speak, of the events described in the Bible.
Read the books y'all. Believe me, when you stumble and gasp (and you will), then set the book down for a while and ask God to explain. And He will, maybe not right away, but He will.

The most sacred part of the Scripture still begins at the first 5 books. These tells us who God is, and what He wants and expects of us, His people. And these first 5 books also tells us that God has a plan, and He WILL redeem His people through His Son, Jesus.

I don't recommend these 'other books' to just anyone. But, if you are on this forum, reading this thread, then you have already shown to the Father that you want to learn. He will not load you up with more than you can handle. And the Master will not leave us hanging either. Where we go, Jesus goes.

Whew! I'm out of breath

Click to expand...

I

Oh sure I believe all the books we have in our Bible are God breathed and show ?God's love and mercy for us His people through the generations and how he kept our forefathers Abraham, Jacob etc but I was saying that Romans tells us how to live out life in this Church Age we live in. As far as I know Enoch contains nothing about how we are to live...I mean, yes it is interesting to learn about fallen angels creating weapons and make up but how do these things affect us today?

Oh and I don't need any fire insurance or summers prayers as am born again and on my way to be with the Lord like most of us on here but M just unclear as to why it compulsory to read the Book of Enoch? I wi l read it for pleasure as a fun thing but there are no commandments in it or any how to live advice...

Sinnners prayer, sorry

LaBèlla said:

Jonaitis,

Good to see you! I hope you're well and in good health. Its been a while.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

Click to expand...

It is good to hear from you too, LaBèlla. I have been busy as of late and haven't found time to be on here very much. I appreciate the kind words, hope you're doing well.

Jonaitis said:

It is good to hear from you too, LaBèlla. I have been busy as of late and haven't found time to be on here very much. I appreciate the kind words, hope you're doing well.

Click to expand...

Jonaitis,

Thank you. I'm doing well. With all that's going on I'm glad to see familiar faces. God bless and keep you.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella