Thought I'd try to save you some repetition.
I went back through your posts to this #55 and see your reasoning re: telos as goal. It's not new to me. I understand it and see its merits & alluded to it in my post #56
But I'm still not fully convinced it is the only thing telos may be telling us in Rom10:4. Is there anything you would add to #55?
Not a problem. I get long in these discussions also. My point was more about your conclusion. Thanks for clarifying that you do see the change in the Law. But, to be clear, the content of the Law was changed to provide for the new administration (using your explanation) (and this is a good place to say that I'm looking at Studyman's views re the covenant with Levi). I have no disagreement with the point of view that the content of the Law expressing God's righteous character is unchanged.
I'm recalling different posts at the moment, so please bear with me, but since you're "Messianic" my assumption (or recollection??) is that you see the Mosaic Law applicable to us today (including Sabbath observance, although I'd rather not open that issue here), correct?
Next, some questions: Did Jesus learn obedience? Did He did obey the Law? Was He ever convicted of sin/lawlessness? Did He become a man and obey the Law for Himself? Who did He reveal the righteousness of God to by living the righteousness of God? What does it mean that the righteous Son of God Himself became righteousness for us?
I'd be interested in your exegeting & explaining Rom3:22. What context you'd like to explain again is certainly fine, but please be more specific with 3:22.
so they needed to be taught how to experientially know and be known by God, or in other words how to grow in a relationship with Him, so that was the goal of giving the Mosaic Law
Whenever we do what is righteous in obedience to God's law we are testifying about who Christ is, so he became our righteousness
The Bible is so clear about what Jesus has spoken. It wasn't a parable, but a direct teaching to all that have listen.
Jesus was speaking about the Laws (Moses) and the prophets (the Bible).
So we still have the Bible and still have the 10 Commandments. Romans 8:4:7.
Revelation 12:17. Revelation 14,:12
What was nailed on the cross was the sacrifices. Read the book of Hebrews.
Those verses doesn't specify that they are speaking only about the Ten Commandments. There weren't any laws nailed to the cross. Whenever someone was crucified, the people would write out a sign that listed the charges that were against them and nail it to their cross in order to announce why they were being executed (Matthew 27:37). This served as a perfect analogy for the list of our violations of the Torah being nailed to the cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with ending any of the laws, especially because they are all eternal (Psalms 119:160).
Honestly, you throw so much out at once in a general overview fashion that I end up constantly looking for what you mean by certain things. An example is the above: to experientially know & be known by God means (iow) to grow in relationship with Him. If this is what you're saying, I get it, but to continue I have to take your word for such statements and then proceed to a very important conclusion per you that this was the goal of giving the Mosaic Law.
In your above gloss re: 1Cor1:30, I have to assume the accuracy of the first part of your statement, and even then, I don't follow your conclusion ("so...") to it.
I agreed with you until the (unfortunate) last sentence.
Colossians 2:13-14, "And even though you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he nevertheless made you alive with him, having forgiven all your transgressions. He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross."
To those of us who have been born again and have accepted Jesus' sacrifice as payment for violating God's first covenant -- the law -- it no longer applies to us. We are dead to the law but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Again, Colossians 2:13-14 doesn't say anything about any laws being nailed to the cross. Crosses were never used for the purpose of disposing of laws such that they needed to write new laws to replace the old ones every time someone was crucified. The main purpose of the brutality of the cross was to act as a deterrent, so the Romans wanted to make sure that everyone knew the charges that were against the person being crucified. So for example, they would write a sign that announced that someone was a thief and nail that to their cross, not nail the law itself against stealing to their cross. God's law is not a certificate of indebtedness and it is not against or opposed to us, but rather it was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13).
Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so saying that Jesus gave himself to cause the law to no longer apply to us undermines both his ministry and what he gave himself to accomplish.
In Ephesians 2:10, we have been made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works, not for the purpose of rejecting God's instructions for how to do good works. In 1 John 3:10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves following God's law. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ Jesus are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to God's law. The fact that Jesus gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins should make us want to go and sin no more by living in obedience to the law, not consider ourselves free to do what God has revealed to be sin. It doesn't make any sense to think that being alive to God in Christ Jesus involves refusing to submit to God's commands and what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example.
Colossians 2:14-15 says, "He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross. Disarming the rulers and authorities, he has made a public disgrace of them, triumphing over them by the cross." Here is a lesson for you on how to read the Bible...
The first sentence talks about a certificate, which is then nailed to the cross. Since this never happened, Paul must be a liar. Right?
Taken in context this passage clearly states that there was the law which put us all under the penalty of sin. Because all have sinned, all are guilty and have a debt to pay, written on a spiritual certificate. The charge against us in the spiritual certificate was removed by "nailing it to the spiritual cross", cancelling our debts.
If you understand the reply to just that one section of your post we can move on. If you want to argue and be legalistic, I'm not interested.
Read your Bible and let it teach you. Don't search through it to prove a point (unless you're a Pharisee -- and we know what Jesus thought about them)
I didn't say that Paul lied or deny that there was a certificate of indebtedness that was nailed to the cross, but rather I denied that it is was referring to any laws being nailed to the cross. For example, the Ten Commandments are straightforwardly a list of commandments, not a certificate of indebtedness, so the Ten Commandments themselves were not nailed to the cross, but rather the certificate of indebtedness that was nailed to the cross would be the list of our sins in violation of those commandments. Jesus did not go to the cross to free us from needing to obey any of God's commandments, but rather he went to cross the pay our penalty for breaking them. Jesus died to pay the penalty for the sins of the Pharisees, so that is what he thought about them.
I repeat... Colossians 2:14-15 says, "He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us." What do you think that "expressed in decrees opposed to us" means if not the Mosaic law?
Jesus did go to the cross to free us from needing to obey any of God's commandments. If you don't understand that then you don't understand the New Covenant. We are no longer slaves to the law, as Paul clearly states in Romans and Galatians (and other places).
Romans 6:14, "For sin will have no mastery over you, because you are not under law but under grace."
Romans 7:6, "But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code.
Galatians 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
What is it about this principle that you can't understand?
1.) You shall not commit murder.
2.) Someone been found guilty of committing murder and the penalty is death.
1.) is an example of law that is for our own good while 2.) is an example of a certificate of indebtedness that is against someone who has committed murder expressed in decree opposed to them. Jesus gave himself to destroy 2.), not 1.). In other words, Jesus did not go to the cross so that we could be free to commit murder, but rather the fact that he gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins should make us want to go and sin no more by living in obedience to God's law.
In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from any laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe in what he accomplished on the cross, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20), while you are undermining what Jesus accomplished on the cross by saying that he did go to the cross to free us from obeying any of God's commandments. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves following God's law. Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law and he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, so it doesn't even make sense to think that Jesus went to the cross and established the New Covenant in order to undermine everything that he spent his ministry teaching by word and by example.
In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's law, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, and Romans 7:6, we have been set free from a law that held us captive, so we have been set free from the law of sin in order to be free to delight in obeying the Law of God, but sadly you have got it completely backwards by wanting to be free from the Law of God and embracing captivity to the law of sin.
In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we aren't under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe God's holy, righteous, and good law, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace doesn't mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of God's law, so we are still under God's law.
Likewise, in Galatians 5:16-18, a law that causes us not to do the good that we want to do is describing the law of sin, not God's law. It wouldn't even make sense to interpret that verse is saying that the Spirit is opposed to the Father.
Why can't you understand the difference between obeying the Mosaic law and obeying God by the Holy Spirit?
The law is an external set of rules that should be obeyed, but it is impossible to keep the whole law, so punishment is mandatory and inevitable. All people are guilty of violating God's (external) law because all are sinners.
The Holy Spirit is an internal force that guides us into doing God's will. The (external) law no longer applies to Christians -- we are dead to the law but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Please read this section of Paul's letter to the Romans where this principle is clear and authoritatively explained..
Romans 7:4-6, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code.
It doesn't make any sense to think that obeying God's law by the leading of the Spirit looks like something different than obedience to God's law. God is not in disagreement with Himself about which laws we should follow, so the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses. In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul equated the Mosaic Law with the Law of the Spirit by contrasting both of them with the law of sin and death. In Romans 8:3-4, Jesus set us free from sin so that we might be free to obey God's law and meet its righteous requirement. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law, in John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, and in Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth. In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being of corrupted minds and disqualified in regard to the faith. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit is given to those who obey God.
In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to God has always been an internal matter of the heart. If God's law was external, then God would not have disdained it when His people honored Him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13). In Romans 7:14, God's law is spiritual. In Psalms 40:8, God has straightforwardly made His will known through His law, so again, why would the Spirit leading us to do God's will look like something other than what God has revealed His will to be? Why would being alive to God in Christ Jesus involve refusing to follow the law that Christ taught by word and by example?
In Romans 7:1-4, at no point in Paul's example from the law was the woman ever set free from needing to obey any of God's laws, and if she were set get married to a 2nd husband after the death of her 1st husband, then she would still be required to refrain from living with another man while her husband was still alive, so there is nothing there that leads to the conclusion that we also have been set free from obeying all of God's laws. It doesn't even make sense to think that the way to bear fruit for God involves rejecting God's instructions for how to bear fruit for Him. In Romans 7:22, Paul delighted in obeying God's law and again it doesn't make sense to interpret Paul as speaking against obeying a law that he delighted in obeying. If Romans 7:5-6 were referring to God's law, then that would mean that Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death and that he delighted in being held captive, which is absurd, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive in Romans 7:23.
This is a fine example of Sophistry. In case you don't know what that means: "a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning. a false argument"
We Christians are dead to the law but alive in Christ Jesus. Paul wrote to the Romans, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. (Romans 7:4)
Romans 8:1-4, " Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."
Since you don't understand why Christ died I suggest that you move away from your computer and start reading the Bible with an open mind.
Why can't you understand the difference between obeying the Mosaic law and obeying God by the Holy Spirit?
The law is an external set of rules that should be obeyed, but it is impossible to keep the whole law, so punishment is mandatory and inevitable. All people are guilty of violating God's (external) law because all are sinners.
The Holy Spirit is an internal force that guides us into doing God's will. The (external) law no longer applies to Christians -- we are dead to the law but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Please read this section of Paul's letter to the Romans where this principle is clear and authoritatively explained..
Romans 7:4-6, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code.
I genuinely hold this position, I have used many verses to support why I hold my position, and I have no desire to trick anyone, so this is not an example of sophistry. If you think that I've used a fallacious method of reasoning, then by all means please explain why you think that. I have not disagreed with anything in Romans 7:4-6 or Romans 8:1-4, but rather I have spoken in regard to how they should be correctly understood. In Titus 2:14, is describes why Christ died by saying that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, which is the opposite of saying that he gave himself to free us from needing to follow God's laws for how to do good works, so it is you who don't understand why he died.
Oh, I see: "correctly" says it all. Who are you to say how to interpret the Bible? It's clear that you have missed the fundamental truth about the New Covenant: we have been set free from the law and now live under the freedom and grace that comes from God through the Holy Spirit. Stop taking single, disparate verses from here and there to prove your point . Why don't you read the Bible to try to understand it without trying to impose your faulty interpretation on others?
If you want to throw away God's grace and put yourself under the law, I pity you. Repent!!
I hope the other Christians can see the truth.Those verses doesn't specify that they are speaking only about the Ten Commandments. There weren't any laws nailed to the cross. Whenever someone was crucified, the people would write out a sign that listed the charges that were against them and nail it to their cross in order to announce why they were being executed (Matthew 27:37). This served as a perfect analogy for the list of our violations of the Torah being nailed to the cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with ending any of the laws, especially because they are all eternal (Psalms 119:160).