[Catholics Only] Is it possible...

Gnarwhal

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Is it possible that the Church could be wiped off the face of the Earth and Christ's promise that the gates of hell won't prevail against it would still hold up because the devil can't touch the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant?
 

thecolorsblend

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I've wondered the same thing. Some theologians suggest that "The gates of Hell shall not prevail against [the Church]" refers to the Great Commission, that not even the combined forces of darkness can stop the Church from saving souls otherwise destined for damnation. But that doesn't suggest that the Church itself can never be laid waste.

Still, I find that difficult to accept. For one, theoretically apostolic succession could be ruptured if Christianity goes extinct. Succession has been perfectly preserved for two millennia now so I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't have already happened if such a thing was possible.

For another thing, Our Lord promised to be with us always, even unto the end of the age. God never abandoned Him. God allowed Our Lord to make His sacrifice but God never left Him to the mercy of darkness. So, it doesn't seem to follow that Our Lord would abandon us either. How can He say that He is with us always if the Church ever goes extinct? Maybe I'm missing something but I can't square a promise to always be there for us with allowing the Church He founded to disappear.

Maybe I'm wrong. But whatever persecutions the Church may face in the future, I do not believe they will be 100% successful in wiping out 100% of the Church through 100% of the world.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Is it possible that the Church could be wiped off the face of the Earth and Christ's promise that the gates of hell won't prevail against it would still hold up because the devil can't touch the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant?
Now that's a scary thought.

Considering how the affairs of the Church have been going, double scary.

But I think not. I think there will be a remnant. At least a tiny few. And here's why. It would have made no sense to say the gates of hell would not prevail on the Church Triumphant or the Church Suffering. It is obvious those endure. What is not obvious is the Church Militant surviving. Which is why the Christ said it, as an encouragement for us when we are ready to throw in the towel.
 
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Michie

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Yep. That’s what I have always thought of the remnant. Outward appearance may look like it is dying or gone but the remnant is still there which keeps the Church alive. Think of the Church gathering in the catacombs. Sometime I think what is happening is right on plan until it comes to a full circle. If that makes sense to anyone. Anyway, it gives me hope to hang in there. Things may come to fulfillment as they began.
 
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zippy2006

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Is it possible that the Church could be wiped off the face of the Earth and Christ's promise that the gates of hell won't prevail against it would still hold up because the devil can't touch the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant?

Certainly not.

Here is Ott:

The Church is indefectible, that is, she remains and will remain the Institution of Salvation, founded by Christ, until the end of the world. (Sent. certa.) (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 296)
Here is Denzinger:

[The Church] is perpetual 1793, 1821, 1955, 2052; (Systematic Index IIa)

For example, see the introduction to Pastor Aeternus.
 
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Rhamiel

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I would say such an interpretation would be at least a theological innovation and at worst a heresy
It goes against the interpretation of every apostolic father, early church father, Doctor of the Church, and scholastic I can think of. Like individually these guys are susceptible to their own bias but when they all agree it is pretty much settled doctrine
 
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Bob Crowley

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I think there's going to be an enormous trial, such that the faith of many will be shaken.

From the Catechism -

The Church's ultimate trial

675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.
 
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pdudgeon

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I've wondered the same thing. Some theologians suggest that "The gates of Hell shall not prevail against [the Church]" refers to the Great Commission, that not even the combined forces of darkness can stop the Church from saving souls otherwise destined for damnation. But that doesn't suggest that the Church itself can never be laid waste.

Still, I find that difficult to accept. For one, theoretically apostolic succession could be ruptured if Christianity goes extinct. Succession has been perfectly preserved for two millennia now so I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't have already happened if such a thing was possible.

For another thing, Our Lord promised to be with us always, even unto the end of the age. God never abandoned Him. God allowed Our Lord to make His sacrifice but God never left Him to the mercy of darkness. So, it doesn't seem to follow that Our Lord would abandon us either. How can He say that He is with us always if the Church ever goes extinct? Maybe I'm missing something but I can't square a promise to always be there for us with allowing the Church He founded to disappear.

Maybe I'm wrong. But whatever persecutions the Church may face in the future, I do not believe they will be 100% successful in wiping out 100% of the Church through 100% of the world.
 
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pdudgeon

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and to add, every week people are still accepting Christ as their Savor, and their souls are still being saved.
The Gospel still has to be preached in every corner of the World, but progress is still being made every day on that account.
Even when Socialism or Gnosticism or Heresy have reared their ugly heads, Christ has and will still prevail against such things.
And they WILL NOT LAST!:preach::liturgy::priest:
 
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