Where do the dead go? The answers may surprise you :)
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Friedrich Rubinstein
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I'm afraid I can't agree on this. The Bible only talks about "the judgment (day)", not plural. Also, when you look at the parables in in Mt 13 you will find that there is only one harvest, and no fish will be separated before the very end.
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He said ... Lazarus is asleep .... did not say Lazarus's "body" was sleeping (you threw that in yourself). And then Jesus made it clear by following up with ... Lazarus is dead.
Jesus himself refers to death as sleep ... and did not separate out a "soul" from the body. And think about it .... of course He would because one day all will be resurrected .... 1st resurrection of the saved .... 2nd resurrection of the lost.
John 5
28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 11
13They thought that Jesus was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus. 14So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead
If that is to be believed ...... then where was Lazarus' "immortal soul" during the time he laid dead? Did his "soul" go somewhere and then Jesus brought it back? Did He snatch Lazarus's "soul" out of heaven ... and reunite it with his body only for Lazarus to again live his years out on earth?
1 Timothy 6:16
16He (God) alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen
Nothing about us is immortal UNTIL Jesus returns.
This "immortal soul" teaching is the same lie being propagated by satan and people still believing the same old lie.
Genesis 3:4
Berean Study Bible
“You will not surely die,” the serpent told her.
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Do people burn forever in a Hell-fire?
DO SAVED mothers up in heaven see
the writhing and hear the shrieks of
their own lost children down in hell?
Lazzarus and the Rich man
First of all, IT IS A PARABLE.
To whom was Christ speaking?
Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous,
heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which
justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth
your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among
men is abomination in the sight of God.
So Christ was speaking to the Pharisees.
OK, how did He speak to them... Mat 13:34 All these
things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables;
and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went
into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,
Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Christ only spoke plainly to the disciples.
Lazarus and the Rich Man is a PARABLE.
DO SAVED mothers up in heaven see
the writhing and hear the shrieks of
their own lost children down in hell?
Lazzarus and the Rich man
First of all, IT IS A PARABLE.
To whom was Christ speaking?
Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous,
heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which
justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth
your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among
men is abomination in the sight of God.
So Christ was speaking to the Pharisees.
OK, how did He speak to them... Mat 13:34 All these
things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables;
and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went
into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,
Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Christ only spoke plainly to the disciples.
Lazarus and the Rich Man is a PARABLE.
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The verses were presented, that was my reply to the other not believing the verses. Judging by your similar previous reply, it looks like you just jumped into this thread not aware of all that has already gone on.
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It's Lazarus' body that was raised because it was Lazarus' body that slept.
Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man were all physically dead yet having a conversation, yea, an argument: hardly "soul sleep". The only way out is to deny the literality of Christ's words in Luke 16. See #2 in my signature.
And yes, the soul was reunited with the body. Meanwhile the soul was not in heaven, but in the underground soul-prison, sometimes called "grave", aka Abraham's bosom. In the Bible, "grave" is often a reference to a grave of souls, not bodies.
Psa_30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
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The account of Lazarus is obviously a parable.
Abraham himself in his own person appears on the scene. And if he himself is present in a literal sense, it is hardly fair to use his bosom, at the same time, in a figurative sense! If his bosom is figurative, then Abraham himself, and so then the whole narrative, is figurative.
Nowhere else in His Word is the "bosom of Abraham" used.
If dead men actually hold converse with one another, then the parable contradicts the plainest declarations of Scripture—"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" (Ps. 146:4); "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" (Ps. 115:17).
Abraham himself had died and his sons buried him (Gen. 25:8, 9). Nor is there any account of his resurrection. In the Biblical account (Hebrews 11) he, like the other patriarchs, is awaiting that "better" resurrection at the second coming of Christ.
That's because the soul is the entirely of a person. A soul is not something the Lord stuffed into us when He created us. He gave us the breath of life .... the ability to live within the body he created for us .... same with all His living creatures.
Animals have the same breath of life. Is there anywhere in His Word where it is stated that animals have a immortal soul? No. Animals and humans both have the breath of life.
Ecclesiastes 3:19
Berean Study Bible
For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same breath. Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything is futile.
It is the breath of life that returns to the Lord ... and it is just that .... the ability to breath given by Him to His living creatures .... all of them.
Genesis 2:7
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the *breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the *spirit returns to God who gave it.
Strongs
ruach: breath, wind, spirit
Original Word: רוּחַ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: ruach
Phonetic Spelling: (roo'-akh)
Definition: breath, wind, spirit
Again .... we are not immortal ... only God is ... we do not receive immortality until the return of Jesus ... also when He returns we get a new body ....
1 Corinthians 15:36-50
You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. ...
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A) prove it
B) then prove how it being a parable also means that nothing it relates is literal
So if someone says: "George kicked the table leg", since "table leg" is figurative, so must also be George's leg wherewith he kicked the table?
I didn't say Abraham resurrected. I don't know what that was about.
We must interpret the words of the Bible the way the Bible uses them. In Psalm 146:4 thoughts are the plans that men have. Notice how thoughts is used in the sense of “plans” in other verses: Luk 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Luk 12:17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? Luk 12:18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. Luk 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. Luk 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
As for Psalm 115:17, that's because silence is the default condition as the O.T. saints were in quietness but could be disquieted as Samuel himself complained about as he proceeds to speak, yea even prophesy: 1Sa_28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
So the Holy Ghost was being redundant when Paul prayed specifically for the preservation of our 3 parts? 1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit AND soul AND body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Or what of Christ in his humanity, as his spirit went to God (Luke 23:46), his body in the grave (Mt.27:59-60) and his soul in hell (Ps.16:10, Acts 2:27)?
About the counter-objections, please see the video if you haven't already
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A) prove it
B) then prove how it being a parable also means that nothing it relates is literal
So if someone says: "George kicked the table leg", since "table leg" is figurative, so must also be George's leg wherewith he kicked the table?
I didn't say Abraham resurrected. I don't know what that was about.
We must interpret the words of the Bible the way the Bible uses them. In Psalm 146:4 thoughts are the plans that men have. Notice how thoughts is used in the sense of “plans” in other verses: Luk 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Luk 12:17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? Luk 12:18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. Luk 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. Luk 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
As for Psalm 115:17, that's because silence is the default condition as the O.T. saints were in quietness but could be disquieted as Samuel himself complained about as he proceeds to speak, yea even prophesy: 1Sa_28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
So the Holy Ghost was being redundant when Paul prayed specifically for the preservation of our 3 parts? 1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit AND soul AND body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Or what of Christ in his humanity, as his spirit went to God (Luke 23:46), his body in the grave (Mt.27:59-60) and his soul in hell (Ps.16:10, Acts 2:27)?
About the counter-objections, please see the video if you haven't already
1 Corinthians 15:36-50 ESV / 4 helpful votes
You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. ...
It's not a teaching about what happens to a person when they die.
Just prior to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16 is another parable about the “unjust steward,” which begins with the phrase “there was a certain rich man.” (The Parable of the Rich Fool - Luke 12:16) As Jesus relayed that parable to his disciples, the Jewish teachers, the Pharisees, were listening. “Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him” (Luke 16:14). These religious leaders sneered at Jesus because they knew they were the direct object of His words.
This was not the first time Jesus took these men to task for their self-absorbed greed, corruption and exploitation. For example in Matthew 23:14 Christ declared they were “devouring widow’s houses.” Also in Matthew 23:25 he declared they were “full of extortion and self-indulgence.” So the context in which the parable of Lazarus and the rich man can be understood and that involves a person’s responsibility to use money and wealth properly—which includes caring for the needs of other people.
About the counter-objections, please see the video if you haven't already
I have limited internet therefore do not watch videos.
Job 33:4
The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
We are born of the flesh ... we must be born again to receive the Holy Spirit.
Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
Ecclesiastes 7:20
Surely there is no righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.
We do not receive immortality until Jesus returns.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1st Corinthians 15
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
We are MORTAL until He returns.
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I'm not sure what most of the post was about, honestly, as maybe the points being made were too long to be made; and I don't get the stand-alone verse list; or how that was a proof it's a parable, and then proving that no part of a parable is literal was not mentioned.
No one denies our mortality, which in Romans 6:12 (mortal body), 2Corinthians 4:11 (mortal flesh) 1Corinthians 15:50-58 relates to the flesh.
Ok, sorry about your limited internet. If ever you can watch it, let me know.
All the best.
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