is the Son the Father?

Jesusthekingofking

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The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Father. But the Father, the Son and the Spirit is one God. This is what the church been teaching about the trinity correct?

but why Isaiah 9:6 seems to say the Son 'is' the Father?

Isaiah 9:6:
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Father. But the Father, the Son and the Spirit is one God. This is what the church been teaching about the trinity correct?

but why Isaiah 9:6 seems to say the Son 'is' the Father?

Isaiah 9:6:
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Yep and John 17 even says they have the same name...

However the terms Father and Son are an anthropomorphism and the real relationships are beyond understanding.

But hey He thinks the terms are adequate for our little minds.

At the end of the day it is about infinite Love not perfect definitions.
 
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SANTOSO

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The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Father. But the Father, the Son and the Spirit is one God. This is what the church been teaching about the trinity correct?

but why Isaiah 9:6 seems to say the Son 'is' the Father?

Isaiah 9:6:
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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Yep and John 17 even says they have the same name...

However the terms Father and Son are an anthropomorphism and the real relationships are beyond understanding.

But hey He thinks the terms are adequate for our little minds.

At the end of the day it is about infinite Love not perfect definitions.
So what's the answer? Why then the church father (early Christian leader) says the Father is not the Son?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Like I say, the real answer is beyond our understanding - but for our purposes, God considers it adequate to use the terms Father and Son when in fact we will spend eternity understanding the way the relationship actually works.
 
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solid_core

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The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Father. But the Father, the Son and the Spirit is one God. This is what the church been teaching about the trinity correct?

but why Isaiah 9:6 seems to say the Son 'is' the Father?

Isaiah 9:6:
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Are you also your own father?

The Son is not the Father, but from the Father.
 
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Dave L

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The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Father. But the Father, the Son and the Spirit is one God. This is what the church been teaching about the trinity correct?

but why Isaiah 9:6 seems to say the Son 'is' the Father?

Isaiah 9:6:
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
The Son speaks for the Father. So you need to adjust for this.
 
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Lost4words

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Take our sun in the sky.

Are the rays that shine from it not the sun?

Is the heat that transmits from it not the sun?

Is the light that emits from it not the sun?

This is how I see the Trinity.
 
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solid_core

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Take our sun in the sky.

Are the rays that shine from it not the sun?

Is the heat that transmits from it not the sun?

Is the light that emits from it not the sun?

This is how I see the Trinity.


1:16
 
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Dave L

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there is no doubt about that, but is Isaiah's 'Everlasting Father' talk about the trinity? that's my question.
“For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.” Luke 2:11 (NCPB) Lord contains Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So yes.
 
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solid_core

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there is no doubt about that, but is Isaiah's 'Everlasting Father' talk about the trinity? that's my question.
Do you know there are other variants of this verse? The reading you use is not carved in the stone.
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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“For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.” Luke 2:11 (NCPB) Lord contains Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So yes.
Christ is God, no doubt, but saying the Father and the Son is the same person, I don't think that's what the early Christian believe about the trinity.

ST ATHANASIUS's trinity explanation:

1200px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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Do you know there are other variants of this verse? The reading you use is not carved in the stone.
what are you trying to say? if I take your principle the whole bible have other variants, do you still believe the bible is the inspired words of God then?
 
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solid_core

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what are you trying to say? if I take your principle the whole bible have other variants, do you still believe the bible is the inspired words of God then?
I do not believe the Bible is inspired word by word. In that case we would not have differences, right.

If some variant reading is making you a theological problem, go with another one.

For example, the verse can be read as "the father of the age to come".
 
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Dave L

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Christ is God, no doubt, but saying the Father and the Son is the same person, I don't think that's what the early Christian believe about the trinity.

ST ATHANASIUS's trinity explanation:

1200px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png
Jesus Christ is the name of the trinity as displayed in your chart.
 
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Dave G.

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Here is one commentary on this subject from Biblestudytools:

Why Is Christ, the Son, Called 'the Everlasting Father' (Isaiah 9:6)?

Let us first see Isaiah 9:6-7 as a whole:

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

This is undoubtedly a prophecy of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. He is the promised Son of God, who fulfills all these titles and offices. Among these is the name and title "Everlasting Father." How could Christ, the Son of God, be called the "Everlasting Father"? Did He not say He came to reveal the Father (Luke 10:22; John 1:18)?

The answer lies in the answer to the question, "Who is the God of the Old Testament?" Many scriptures establish that Jesus Christ created all things (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 2:10; etc.). I Corinthians 10:4 states unequivocally that the One called "the Rock" in the Old Testament is Christ (Deuteronomy 32:3-4; II Samuel 22:47; Psalm 18:2; etc.). The one called Yahweh (or YHWH) is also our Savior and King Jesus Christ!

Now notice Deuteronomy 32:6: "Do you thus deal with the LORD, O foolish and unwise people [the Israelites]? Is He not your Father, who bought you? Has He not made you and established you"? The God of the Old Testament fulfilled many roles toward Israel, and one of them is as their Father. He claims fatherhood under three bases: 1) He redeemed them—bought them—from slavery in Egypt. 2) He created them. 3) He founded them as a nation. He has every right to the title!

Finally, notice His own words in Jeremiah 31:9, speaking of the still-future time when Israel will repent: "They shall come with weeping, and with supplications I will lead them. I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters, in a straight way in which they shall not stumble; for I am a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn." This shows that He will be their Father when He returns to this earth to set up His world-ruling government, and this special relationship to Israel will last throughout all eternity. He is indeed "the Everlasting Father"!
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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Here is one commentary on this subject from Biblestudytools:

Why Is Christ, the Son, Called 'the Everlasting Father' (Isaiah 9:6)?

Let us first see Isaiah 9:6-7 as a whole:

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

This is undoubtedly a prophecy of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. He is the promised Son of God, who fulfills all these titles and offices. Among these is the name and title "Everlasting Father." How could Christ, the Son of God, be called the "Everlasting Father"? Did He not say He came to reveal the Father (Luke 10:22; John 1:18)?

The answer lies in the answer to the question, "Who is the God of the Old Testament?" Many scriptures establish that Jesus Christ created all things (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 2:10; etc.). I Corinthians 10:4 states unequivocally that the One called "the Rock" in the Old Testament is Christ (Deuteronomy 32:3-4; II Samuel 22:47; Psalm 18:2; etc.). The one called Yahweh (or YHWH) is also our Savior and King Jesus Christ!

Now notice Deuteronomy 32:6: "Do you thus deal with the LORD, O foolish and unwise people [the Israelites]? Is He not your Father, who bought you? Has He not made you and established you"? The God of the Old Testament fulfilled many roles toward Israel, and one of them is as their Father. He claims fatherhood under three bases: 1) He redeemed them—bought them—from slavery in Egypt. 2) He created them. 3) He founded them as a nation. He has every right to the title!

Finally, notice His own words in Jeremiah 31:9, speaking of the still-future time when Israel will repent: "They shall come with weeping, and with supplications I will lead them. I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters, in a straight way in which they shall not stumble; for I am a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn." This shows that He will be their Father when He returns to this earth to set up His world-ruling government, and this special relationship to Israel will last throughout all eternity. He is indeed "the Everlasting Father"!
My question isn't about Jesus is God or not. I'm asking about is it ok to say the Son is the Father? It's very different when you say the Spirit (God) is the Son or the Father. Although we know the Father, the Son and the Spirit is one God.
 
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solid_core

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I'm asking about is it ok to say the Son is the Father?
No, its not ok.

The Son can be the father of something, like the father of the age of grace or the father of creation, but surely not the Father, the person of the Godhead.
 
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Dave L

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My question isn't about Jesus is God or not. I'm asking about is it ok to say the Son is the Father? It's very different when you say the Spirit (God) is the Son or the Father. Although we know the Father, the Son and the Spirit is one God.
It's wrong to say that. Here's what happened. The trinity took on human flesh from Mary. “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” Colossians 2:9 (NCPB)

But when Jesus the Man spoke, it was the eternal Son speaking. But you can not divide God into three distinct gods. God is one Spirit having three distinct persons.
 
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