The Strawman argument that ALL = every single person

Saint Steven · Aug 19, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Showing cases where pas does mean all doesn’t prove that it always means all.

What does the actual definition of pas tell us?

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
every, all manner of
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole -- all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

HELPS Word-studies
3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).
3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.
[When 3956 (pás) modifies a word with the definite article it has "extensive-intensive" force – and is straightforward intensive when the Greek definite article is lacking.]

Saint Steven · Aug 19, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Salvation is available to all. The only problem is all will not accept it.

Where is the "personal decision" in this scripture? It's not about us.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

BNR32FAN · Aug 19, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Bring it.

What "truth" are you referring to? That "all" doesn't mean all?

Were Jesus’ disciples hated by all?

“You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Is a mustard seed smaller than all other seeds?

“He presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR come and NEST IN ITS BRANCHES."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:31-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Was literally every single person in Jerusalem stirred and saying “who is this”?

“When He had entered Jerusalem, all the city was stirred, saying, "Who is this?"”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

No because obviously the crowds of people who were shouting “this is the prophet Jesus” were not saying “who is this.”

“And the crowds were saying, "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:11‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Will a person really receive all things they pray for if they have faith?

“And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:21-22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

What if a person has faith and prays that everyone including Jesus, God The Father, and all the angels be thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity?

Did all the Jews wash their hands before eating?

“and had seen that some of His disciples (all Jews) were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed. (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders;”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:2-3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

These are just a few more examples I found where pas does not mean all.

BNR32FAN · Aug 19, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Where is the "personal decision" in this scripture? It's not about us.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Back up a bit brother. Romans 5 begins with the word “Therefore” so whenever you see that word you need to go back and see what it’s there for.

“Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:23-25‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Der Alte · Aug 19, 2020

Saint Steven said:
...

Saint Steven said:
Where is the "personal decision" in this scripture? It's not about us.
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

The UR agenda for this passage is since "εις παντας"/"unto many," not "the many," refers both to "were made sinners" and "will be made righteous" they argue that all mankind were made sinners so all mankind will be made righteous.

Saint Steven · Aug 19, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Were Jesus’ disciples hated by all?

“You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Is a mustard seed smaller than all other seeds?

“He presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR come and NEST IN ITS BRANCHES."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:31-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Was literally every single person in Jerusalem stirred and saying “who is this”?

“When He had entered Jerusalem, all the city was stirred, saying, "Who is this?"”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

No because obviously the crowds of people who were shouting “this is the prophet Jesus” were not saying “who is this.”

“And the crowds were saying, "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:11‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Will a person really receive all things they pray for if they have faith?

“And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:21-22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

What if a person has faith and prays that everyone including Jesus, God The Father, and all the angels be thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity?

Did all the Jews wash their hands before eating?

“and had seen that some of His disciples (all Jews) were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed. (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders;”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:2-3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

These are just a few more examples I found where pas does not mean all.

Noted.
I don't see any of my scriptures in there. Doesn't apply?

Saint Steven · Aug 19, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Back up a bit brother. Romans 5 begins with the word “Therefore” so whenever you see that word you need to go back and see what it’s there for.

“Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:23-25‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Are you claiming that something in the previous chapter nullifies this scripture?

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

TexFire316 · Aug 19, 2020

Jesus, the Son, worships Yahweh, the Father.

Mark Quayle · Aug 19, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Perhaps this was a good response to your post statement. Though not intended to be directed at you only.

The "as in" and "so in" phrases below indicate the same action.
All died in Adam in the same way all will be made alive in Christ.
How many died in Adam? (all) How many will be made alive in Christ? (all)
As in Adam, so in Christ. All in Adam, is all in Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Grammatically in English, and I'm guessing in Greek as in Spanish, though I'm no authority concerning Greek, it is not necessarily implied that "so in" applies to every detail that as in applies to. The word, "thus" could, perhaps, be as well used as "so in" as far as use goes. The force of the verse concerns the word, "all", which to my mind say, Since [absolutely] everybody died in Adam, so it is that [absolutely] nobody can be made alive, except in Christ.

Nevertheless, as some see the passage referring to all of a certain group, the Elect, then the first phrase's "all" is referring to all of the elect just as is the last "all". This does not deny that all of mankind is dead through Adam --it just means that this grammar does not say that, but only that the elect were made dead through Adam.

Mark Quayle · Aug 19, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Jesus taught us to love our enemies. And described it as godly behavior. That being the case, what will God do with his enemies? It seems that Damnationists make God out to be worse than a pagan, or a tax collector. (traitor)

Hardly. We cannot judge God according to our norms and values, nevermind according to our morals. God is OVER / ABOVE all this, and we humans do not qualify on his plane of existence. He can do as he pleases with any part or the whole of his creation, and is perfectly just to do so. We, particularly, being made by him for his particular use, are not even complete beings apart from him, though we judge ourselves to be whole.

Saint Steven · Aug 20, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Grammatically in English, and I'm guessing in Greek as in Spanish, though I'm no authority concerning Greek, it is not necessarily implied that "so in" applies to every detail that as in applies to. The word, "thus" could, perhaps, be as well used as "so in" as far as use goes. The force of the verse concerns the word, "all", which to my mind say, Since [absolutely] everybody died in Adam, so it is that [absolutely] nobody can be made alive, except in Christ.

Nevertheless, as some see the passage referring to all of a certain group, the Elect, then the first phrase's "all" is referring to all of the elect just as is the last "all". This does not deny that all of mankind is dead through Adam --it just means that this grammar does not say that, but only that the elect were made dead through Adam.

That is a lot of gymnastics and hair-splitting to avoid what that scripture plainly says.

It is obviously a comparative equal. What is the point of applying the first half only to "the elect"? The verse becomes meaningless and void of helpful content. We don't need to be informed that the elect were dead under Adam. (along with everyone else)

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Saint Steven · Aug 20, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Hardly. We cannot judge God according to our norms and values, nevermind according to our morals. God is OVER / ABOVE all this, and we humans do not qualify on his plane of existence. He can do as he pleases with any part or the whole of his creation, and is perfectly just to do so. We, particularly, being made by him for his particular use, are not even complete beings apart from him, though we judge ourselves to be whole.

Explain why that makes it okay to predestine those created in his image to eternal torture with no hope of escape. Sounds more like an angry volcano god to me.

If you knew that your neighbor was torturing people in his basement would you brag about his good character?

Jesus is YHWH · Aug 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Explain why that makes it okay to predestine those created in his image to eternal torture with no hope of escape. Sounds more like an angry volcano god to me.

If you knew that your neighbor was torturing people in his basement would you brag about his good character?

Because Gods ways and His thinking is not like mans. His standards for Righteousness,Justice, Holiness are far above our ways.

The problem is just like a jehovah witness denies the deity of Christ and the Trinity they must read the bible through that lens. You do the exact same thing with universalism. You read the entire bible through that lens. So you are beginning with an error and seeing everything though that lens and refuse to see the other side of the argument in Scripture.

Is 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Der Alte · Aug 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
..

Saint Steven said:
Perhaps this was a good response to your post statement. Though not intended to be directed at you only.
The "as in" and "so in" phrases below indicate the same action.
All died in Adam in the same way all will be made alive in Christ.
How many died in Adam? (all) How many will be made alive in Christ? (all)
As in Adam, so in Christ. All in Adam, is all in Christ.

Saint Steven said:
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

All mankind is inherently "in Adam" because all mankind are literal descendants of Adam. But all mankind are not "in Christ", that takes a conscious decision on the part of each individual.
Paul did not say "by Christ all will be made alive."

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

NOT “in Christ””in Him” NOT gathered together in one.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

NOT “in Christ” NO redemption.

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

“Walk after the flesh” NOT “in Christ” there IS condemnation.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

NOT “in Christ” NOT free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

NOT “in Christ” NOT a member of the body.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

NOT “in Christ” NO sanctification, NO redemption.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Not “in Christ” old things NOT passed away NOT made new.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

NOT “in Christ” NOT children of God.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

NOT “in Christ” NOT ”made nigh” still far off.

2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

NOT “in Christ” NO promise of life.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.

Saint Steven said:
...

Saint Steven said:
Are you claiming that something in the previous chapter nullifies this scripture?

Saint Steven said:
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Paul used the word "pollus"/"many," 71 times.
Paul used the word "pas"/"all," 375 times
When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas," not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used “oi polloi”/”the many” 12 times where it clearly does not mean "all."
Romans 12:5, Romans 15:22-23, Romans 16:2,1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13
In one verse 1 Cor 10:33 Paul used “the many” and “all” in the same verse.

1 Corinthians 10:33
33 Even as I please all [παντα] men in all [πασιν] things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many [των πολλων], that they may be saved.

Mark Quayle · Aug 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Explain why that makes it okay to predestine those created in his image to eternal torture with no hope of escape. Sounds more like an angry volcano god to me.

If you knew that your neighbor was torturing people in his basement would you brag about his good character?

It makes more sense to me that God should exist, than that I should exist, yet here I am. It is amazing to me that God should be able to create something that is not himself, but that that something should be able to rebel against his very creator is astounding!

Read Romans 9. You only present the human pov, and a self-important one at that, in what you say there. He did this for his own sake, for his own glory, to show his justice, power and mercy to his elect. This life is not about us, nor is it about this life. It is about God.

Meanwhile, for those who want to hold Reformed doctrine to the notion that people have no choice, and therefore are treated unfairly by God: Don't pretend that the sinner is not wholly involved with his sin, willingly and willfully railing against his very creator. You may argue that he is CAUSED to do so, and so he is, yet he does choose to do so, with real, responsible choice, whether you recognize it to be so or not. But whether you can follow that or not, to be true, God remains the judge, and not we. He judges according to his own counsel --not ours.

Also, remember, God is just, or he is not God. Whether we understand his doings or hold some kind of misrepresentation or not in our minds, we can know for certain that if he is God, he will not punish more than anyone's deeds deserve. He is precisely, and thoroughly, just.

Saint Steven · Aug 20, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Also, remember, God is just, or he is not God. Whether we understand his doings or hold some kind of misrepresentation or not in our minds, we can know for certain that if he is God, he will not punish more than anyone's deeds deserve. He is precisely, and thoroughly, just.

So, what is your position on the final judgment? Damnationism, Annihilationism, or Universalism?

There is nothing just about burning someone for all eternity with no hope of escape, nor is there justice in incinerating someone that has never even heard your name.

Mark Quayle · Aug 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
That is a lot of gymnastics and hair-splitting to avoid what that scripture plainly says.

It is obviously a comparative equal. What is the point of applying the first half only to "the elect"? The verse becomes meaningless and void of helpful content. We don't need to be informed that the elect were dead under Adam. (along with everyone else)

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

So all anyone means by what they say, is how it appears in print at first glance? You must take it in context, both immediate and the larger context --the whole of Scripture. Splitting hairs or not, we do know that some will not see the kingdom of God, and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, and many other descriptions and warnings are found in Scripture of eternal torment of the unredeemed. We also know that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. You may therefore find contradiction in Scripture --I do not.

Particularly I find it interesting how often people want to treat the Scriptures as if each verse or even phrase in and of itself is NOT to be understood according to common use of language. People want to handle it "spiritually" or something as though it is magic, and not to be taken with common sense, but end up handling it superstitiously. (See also Hebrews chapters 8 through 10).

Take the whole discourse into account and the meaning is easier to see. Your verse is not a standalone verse (See also Hebrews chapters 8 through 10 for a similar discussion). The supposed "plain meaning" is not what you are claiming. If "all" in the first refers to the same group as "all" in the second, it does not mean that Christ will make all alive. If you insist that they are they both refer to the same group, it does not mean that the first statement claims that some did not die in Adam if not absolutely everyone will be made alive in Christ. It only begins a reasoning that in the same way that "all" died in Adam, "all" will be made alive in Christ. None can be made alive but in Christ. We know how regeneration happens --it is by the Spirit of God. So none but those he has chosen for his particular people are made alive, and that, in Christ.

Mark Quayle · Aug 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
So, what is your position on the final judgment? Damnationism, Annihilationism, or Universalism?

There is nothing just about burning someone for all eternity with no hope of escape, nor is there justice in incinerating someone that has never even heard your name.

Perhaps you should abandon the notion that the being in the lake of fire has any resemblance to the being you knew on this earth. I have heard the notion, and in part I agree, that it is no longer even human, but a husk of what is left when God has altogether withdrawn from him.

I see the passages that contain such as "made a little lower than the angels, but now crowned with glory and honor", and many others, to show that humanity, or the elect in particular, are a creation different from, and of more importance to God than even the angels, WE are the ones made in his image --I don't find that said of the angels, nor do I find his particular mercy in dealing with them --they don't even seem capable of repentance that have fallen, and he did not die for them, nor do I find any that did not follow Lucifer in rebellion said to have turned against God later on.

So in the same way that the redeemed will be raised higher than the angels, I see reason to believe the fallen will be worse than the demons. There will be nothing about them to commend them to anyone, they will be utterly bereft of virtue, a shade, a wraith full to capacity of despair, regret, hate, loneliness and pain. Yet, I think, their capacity is a direct result of their sin. Those who have sinned relatively little will suffer relatively little torment. God is precisely and thoroughly just.

This subject also impinges on why I say that we are not even complete beings apart from him, and don't even know who we are until we see him as he is.

Mark Quayle · Aug 20, 2020

Saint Steven said:
So, what is your position on the final judgment? Damnationism, Annihilationism, or Universalism?

There is nothing just about burning someone for all eternity with no hope of escape, nor is there justice in incinerating someone that has never even heard your name.

I think the gospel is a much more simple and profound thing that what is taken for the Gospel to the intellectually capable. No amount of intellect is up to the job of understanding it completely. Those who reject God HAVE rejected the Gospel --they are without excuse as it has been made plain to all that this came from somewhere. We know it intellectually and if not that, at least instinctively. Our pride drives us to reject the notion that we are responsible to any but ourselves.

Or responsibility does not derive from our ability to obey the gospel. It derives from God himself. It is HE we have rejected, and are at enmity with.

Saint Steven · Aug 21, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Perhaps you should abandon the notion that the being in the lake of fire has any resemblance to the being you knew on this earth. I have heard the notion, and in part I agree, that it is no longer even human, but a husk of what is left when God has altogether withdrawn from him.

I see the passages that contain such as "made a little lower than the angels, but now crowned with glory and honor", and many others, to show that humanity, or the elect in particular, are a creation different from, and of more importance to God than even the angels, WE are the ones made in his image --I don't find that said of the angels, nor do I find his particular mercy in dealing with them --they don't even seem capable of repentance that have fallen, and he did not die for them, nor do I find any that did not follow Lucifer in rebellion said to have turned against God later on.

So in the same way that the redeemed will be raised higher than the angels, I see reason to believe the fallen will be worse than the demons. There will be nothing about them to commend them to anyone, they will be utterly bereft of virtue, a shade, a wraith full to capacity of despair, regret, hate, loneliness and pain. Yet, I think, their capacity is a direct result of their sin. Those who have sinned relatively little will suffer relatively little torment. God is precisely and thoroughly just.

This subject also impinges on why I say that we are not even complete beings apart from him, and don't even know who we are until we see him as he is.

Do the demons have tongues? Do they have knees? (yes)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

The Strawman argument that ALL = every single person

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

This is me about 1 yr. old.

You can call me Steve

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Come as a child, with no agenda

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

You can call me Steve

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my Lord and my God !

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

You can call me Steve

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

You can call me Steve

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