Jesus is God?

Tolworth John

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No it's not at all reasonable. John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not mastered it.

Jesus was, is, and will be fully God. He has always had unlimited knowledge and power. After, He created the world!

Please read the opening post.
Then read my responce to it and formulate your reply it it.
 
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ToBeLoved

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So when Jesus humbled himself, does that mean he was pretending not to know what the Father knows, or be really didn't know... Separate minds means they are separate persons... I can't understand it otherwise?
So humbling yourself is about knowledge level?

umm. No
 
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ToBeLoved

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But the don't address the contradiction, they assert godliness, but they don't explain the incongruity of an ignorant God?
How is Jesus being completely human and completely God not explain?

there are many things God tells us and other things he doesn’t.

you are a little backward in seeking everything you don’t understand.
God did not tell us we would understand everything.

as a matter of fact, He says all will be revealed in heaven.
Don’t limit your faith seeking answers that God hasn’t revealed yet.
Study what he has revealed
 
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Tellyontellyon

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Don’t limit your faith seeking answers that God hasn’t revealed yet.
Study what he has revealed
If it's simply a matter of it being a mystery that isn't yet revealed then I can accept that... that's some sort of an explanation. So thank you.

Annoyingly, some on here have been saying it isn't a mystery and making out that it's all making sense and accusing me of sophistry just for pointing out that it doesn't actually make sense (yet).

So thank you for replying to me like I'm an adult.
 
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7xlightray

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Mostly, yes. If they don't address the particular thing I'm asking about. I'm specifically asking for an explanation of where Jesus says that he can't do/know what God does. A million statements from the Bible saying that Jesus does have the attributes of God only makes the question even more perplexing and urgent. Why is Jesus saying he doesn't know what God knows, how can that be?
That's all I want an answer to. That's all I'm asking about.
If you don't know then say so, but please don't try to befuddle me with '30 replies'...
You MUST know what I'm asking. Answer or don't answer but please don't take me for a fool.
I agree, your question is being ignored, with no one answering it, and they will not be able to with incorrect understanding.

Your question, if you don't mind me paraphrasing:
How can one person have two minds;
how can one person know something and not know something at the same time;
how can the all knowing, the only true God not know what He is going to do,
or not know something about Himself?
How can a fish of the sea,
which must have the nature of a sunflower rooted in the ground
at the same time, and yet, by necessity, must put off the other nature?
We agree, not straightforward.
The Bible, like any book, or conversation, having one author, will have one, or a certain understanding. With the wrong understanding some parts will make sense and some parts won't, causing confusion, but with the correct understanding it's straightforward. They are correct though, in that the Word was before, and not creation, and was with God, and was God, then became flesh, they just don't believe, and understand it, but it is straightforward!
 
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Tellyontellyon

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with the correct understanding it's straightforward
Thank you, would you please clarify for me the correct understanding. Please spell it out for me. I'm not a Sophist or on here to try to catch Christians out. I just want it to make sense.
 
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7xlightray

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Thank you, would you please clarify for me the correct understanding. Please spell it out for me. I'm not a Sophist or on here to try to catch Christians out. I just want it to make sense.
I did give some understanding when I stated, it's "straightforward" for John 1:1 and the Word.
Unfortunately, I don't think we can discuss that in here, unless you know differently, or of another thread/forum on this site that we can. I do not hold to any other denominations Christian God, or Christ either (they also cause confusion, and by doctrine (not realizing) deny the Son of God); I did not receive this from any man, or book, nor is it of some wisdom of my own, but by a revelation of Jesus Christ. Also, there will be a video put out "Genesis Revelation", which is almost finished, if you are looking for any such thing.

Matthew 25 While the bridegroom (Christ) was delaying, how many fell asleep?
When the call went out how many needed to be woke up?
All of them!
That is speaking of this age, while Christ is delaying His return.​
 
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Tellyontellyon

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Your question, if you don't mind me paraphrasing:
How can one person have two minds;
how can one person know something and not know something at the same time;
how can the all knowing, the only true God not know what He​
Forgive me, but you were right in starting my question this way.
John 1:1 is starting that Jesus is both God and with-God... But that still isn't obvious to me how that answers my question. If 'With-God' is also God then how is there ignorance in one but not the other.
God the Son and God the Father are both God.. So God is all powerful, all knowing, not ignorant in any way. How can you have an ignorant God?

I will investigate the rest of your and see if it helps. Thank you.

I think we can discuss this here??

Do you receive revelations yourself??
 
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7xlightray

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Forgive me, but you were right in starting my question this way.
John 1:1 is starting that Jesus is both God and with-God... But that still isn't obvious to me how that answers my question. If 'With-God' is also God then how is there ignorance in one but not the other.
God the Son and God the Father are both God.. So God is all powerful, all knowing, not ignorant in any way. How can you have an ignorant God?

I will investigate the rest of your and see if it helps. Thank you.

I think we can discuss this here??

Do you receive revelations yourself??
"I think we can discuss this here??"
Well, lets us do our best not to offend anyone, yet still bring out the truth.

Your still not looking at John 1:1 quite clearly.
How did God create everything? "And God said..and God said..and God said."
"with God, and..was God" - Something that is both with you, and is you, is that not your image, which is equal to you? And what is the image of the invisible God..?

This will explain much Isaiah 55:10-11.

And the word became flesh, grew in wisdom; Jesus is the only unique, one of a kind, begotten Son of God, equal to God John 5:18 "but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God", which the Jews rejected, "because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" - John 10:33 , 36 "because I said, I am the Son of God?"

Yes, but hear this for yourself Ephesians 1:17 and even verses 18 and 19, which was also Paul's hope and prayer for the Ephesians.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Like when Jesus prayed to the Father... so IF He is God then in essence He prayed to Himself. NO!! He neVer claimed to be God... not even once.

This isn't the place to debate the Deity of Christ or the Trinity. This is a place for non-Christians to ask Christians questions about their faith.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Mark 13:32
However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

This makes no sense. If Jesus is God then he must know what God knows.

He does. But what this passage helps illustrate for us is that there are aspects about the Incarnation that are still befuddling and, in fact, paradoxical. And that's okay.

So how can Jesus, who is God, say that He does not know the day or the hour? Well, presumably the same way that Jesus, who is God and therefore cannot die, did in fact die.

How can God who knows all things not know something? How can God who cannot suffer suffer? Excellent questions, and ones which one could endlessly speculate about, but which honestly would only remain speculation.

If Jesus has two natures, a God nature and a Human nature, then the Human nature has a different mind to the God nature...that's two people in one body, not one person.

Except, of course, Christ is one undivided Person. The Divinity and humanity are neither separate nor confused; it is because there is no separation between the two natures that His Person remains one. This was the chief reason for the rejection of Nestorianism.

Nestorius was the Patriarch of Constantinople who argued that Mary could only be called Christ-bearer, and not God-bearer, because she only conceived and gave birth to the humanity of Christ. This view was sharply criticized by significant theologians such as St. Cyril of Alexandria. Without getting terribly deep into the nitty-gritty, the essence of the debate was that by separating the Divinity and humanity into two distinct prosopa (Greek for "persons") as Nestorius did essentially made the human Jesus something other than the Divine Logos. As though there was the Divine Logos who joined to the human person of Jesus at conception. The orthodox response to this is that Christ's Person is undivided. The Logos did not unite Himself to a human person, rather the Logos took upon Himself human nature. There is only one Person, the Divine Logos who is also human by the union with human nature.

While I did say I wouldn't get into the nitty gritty, it is helpful to bring out two somewhat obscure concepts in Christology: Enhypostasia and Anhypostasia.

Anhypostasia is a term that means that Jesus' humanity has no hypostasis--personhood if you will--of itself.

Enhypostasis is a term that means that the Logos "personalizes" the humanity. The Logos is the Person, and by way of His Incarnation this Divine Person is also totally and utterly and completely human--with a human mind, will, body, and soul.

This means that Mary did not conceive a nature, but a Person. The Person she conceived is truly God from all eternity, and also truly human. It means that what died on the cross wasn't a nature, but a Person, the One who died on the cross is truly God and truly human. Which is why we say that God was born, and also that God suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried.

In that case Jesus the Human is not God... and whatever it was that died on the cross was not God.

Jesus the human is the same Jesus the Eternal Son and Logos. They're one and the same. There isn't a Divine Jesus and a human Jesus--there's only Jesus.

This Trinity thing just doesn't work.

There are things about Christian theology which are weird, complicated, and even paradoxical.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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hedrick

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Except, of course, Christ is one undivided Person. The Divinity and humanity are neither separate nor confused; it is because there is no separation between the two natures that His Person remains one. This was the chief reason for the rejection of Nestorianism.
I think there’s a difference between suffering or death and ignorance. You can reasonably say that death and suffering are essentially bodily experiences. While it happened to the single Person, still, the eternal Logos remained unchanged.

But if Jesus truly didn’t know, that suggests at least some degree of separation of the human mind from divine mind or its equivalent. The same identical thing can’t know and not know something. There's a difference between paradox (seeming contradiction) and actual contradiction.

I think that’s just fine. To me the orthodox concept of two wills implies an actual human mind and experience. I think that can be accommodated within a single Person. There’s nothing illogical about saying that one Person (using the original hypostasis, which isn’t quite the same as the modern English “person”) has two kinds of experience, both of which are part of the one Person.

While I don’t claim to know exactly what it is like to be the Son, I do think this passage implies at least some kind of separation in mind or consciousness.
 
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Tellyontellyon

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This isn't the place to debate the Deity of Christ or the Trinity. This is a place for non-Christians to ask Christians questions about their faith.
I am a non Christian asking a question. It's not a debate. I'm asking questions and trying to get at the answer. If it's a mystery fine. If there is a straightforward answer fine.
At the moment the 'It's a mystery' way of putting things is more understandable.
I hated what they did in Star-Wars when they tried to explain the mystery of The Force by introducing the 'explanation' of the
Midi-chlorians
What's wrong with mystery? The Book of Job seems to be a good example of just accepting mystery.
But of course, if there is a straight answer then why not ask about it?
I'm not asking these questions just to be contrary, but I have to challenge and test Christianity if I'm ever to get to a point where it sits with me. I have to be able to orientate myself to it... and particularly the hard to explain or mysterious bits, especially as these are some of the most central and important aspects of Christian belief... Of course Christians should have something to say about the deity of Christ... of course they should!
 
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TexFire316

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He is God, but He still answers to the Father. And the Father alone has this information. Jesus could ask the Father, but He won't. He trusted the Father to raise Him from the dead, I'm sure He trusts the Father to let Him know when it's time for Him to come get us.
It won't be a case of "Jesus, you shoulda left an hour ago!"
 
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Jok

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I think there’s a difference between suffering or death and ignorance. You can reasonably say that death and suffering are essentially bodily experiences. While it happened to the single Person, still, the eternal Logos remained unchanged.

But if Jesus truly didn’t know, that suggests at least some degree of separation of the human mind from divine mind or its equivalent. The same identical thing can’t know and not know something. There's a difference between paradox (seeming contradiction) and actual contradiction.

I think that’s just fine. To me the orthodox concept of two wills implies an actual human mind and experience. I think that can be accommodated within a single Person. There’s nothing illogical about saying that one Person (using the original hypostasis, which isn’t quite the same as the modern English “person”) has two kinds of experience, both of which are part of the one Person.

While I don’t claim to know exactly what it is like to be the Son, I do think this passage implies at least some kind of separation in mind or consciousness.
I agree. You can’t skate around
A = A vs
A = non-A.

I must fall into the heretical view that Christ WAS the essence of God made flesh, yet for whatever the reason had certain obstructions in place to certain infinite knowledge of the Logos
 
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