Would it be "moral" for God to order the killing of children?

com7fy8 · Jul 19, 2020

I understand this thread is where any Christian Forum member is welcome to share what he or she has to say, as long as it isn't directly anti-Bible and denying the existence of God.

In another thread >

Deathbed Confessions | Page 4 | Christian Forums >

we got into a debate about if it is wrong for God to order the execution of an evil child. Caliban says never is it moral to kill a child, if I understand Caliban correctly. Here is one of Caliban's posts > we'll start here >

Caliban said:
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ESV
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

It says stubborn and rebellious--nothing about "lethally dangerous people," as you say. You have misrepresented what the text actually says. There is zero excuse for this. This cannot be justified no matter the what. This is horrible and you wouldn't do it to your own family because you have better moral instincts. You are a better person--I'm sure.

This is morally unjustifiable. Any attempt to defend it is repulsive. This is obviously why Jesus thought it was a bad idea. He understood it was wrong. But, in Christian theology, Jesus is God. That causes an inherent moral problem that my position is not tainted with. I understand that people had different moral instincts in the ancient world, but I one believes in an eternal and omniscient God, it is a problem. I would advise that people not attempt to defend obvious immorality simply because they venerate the texts of their religious scripture.

But God is right to do whatever He does with each person. Yes, Jesus means for us humans not to take it on our own selves to kill evil children, but God is the One who gave the order to kill an evil child. This could be partly so the child does not expose others to his horrible example of hating God and hating the good example of ones around him. He could essentially ruin various children and their whole lives, with his influence. And they could go to hell, for eternity; so removing him can be indeed good.

Possibly, you object to people suffering torment for eternity >

durangodawood said:
Heaven must be unbearable if you know your eternity is matched by the eternal torment of people you loved on earth.

So, in case you also believe it is wrong to suffer in hell, then it can indeed be right to remove people who are so horrible that their bad example is helping to keep people away from God so they miss out on how they could enjoy loving and then they go to hell after never having experienced God's way of family caring and sharing love. They are indeed hating God and people, and hate is murder, a death penalty offense > in the New Testament we have >

"He who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15)

So, God knows the heart and His eternal perspective > so, He knows what it is right to do with a murder-hearted person. A murder-hearted person will die . . . one way or another, whenever.

Caliban said:
I am not sure, but if God is real, he would know and could easily do it. The fact that he doesn't either means he can't, he isn't there, or doesn't want to.

God's focus is on what is eternal, on all He knows about people's hearts, not only on practical morality of what we humans try to dictate is right or wrong!! Also, our Heavenly Father knows His end result which He is bringing about >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

You mention Jesus as your authority for saying God would be wrong to order the execution of an evil child. But Jesus does talk about judgment and its torment for ones who refuse God. And our Apostle Paul does say there are things "deserving of death", in Romans 1:18-32 < in the New Testament brought in by the shed blood of Christ. It is also written >

"But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:13)

So, in case God knows a child is going to become much "worse and worse" before the child dies, and then spend eternity in even much worse of a state (because of first becoming much worse in this life) . . . God can be having mercy on him or her, by having the person die before becoming as horrible and ruined from love as the person could become. And if the person stays here and helps others to hell, how will this effect the person's account on the day of judgment????

But Jesus has died for our sins. Only Jesus could die right for us. So, we can claim His death and put to death our own selfish and evil selves (Luke 9:23-24) . . . executing our selfish selves, now, so now we can become love persons. This is the best judgment and revenge against evil, how God changes us so we are alive in His love in our personalities . . . having executed that evil old self.

But if people hate others by not doing this, they are hating and betraying people's souls, including their own. And hate is murder, deserving of death.

And God knew how those children would become if they had stayed on this earth. They were seeds of who and how they would become > Galatians 6:7-8 > reaping so much more in their end, of how they had been, at first. And in their resurrection, how they became by the time they died can be so greatly multiplied spiritually and emotionally, once they no longer have their bodies to feel some nice thing to try to mask and dilute the feelings of that deep-down horribleness of their selfishness-infected nature. We all shall reap so much more than those little seeds we have sown.

More practically, God knew they could take the Jews the wrong way, into a mixed race so there would be no genealogical line to bring Jesus through Mary who was a Jew. So, there are different ins and outs to what God is doing.

And you will serve His purpose, one way or another.

But yes now we have Jesus who has died with hope for any evil person. Love "hopes all things", we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7. And we may join Jesus by putting to death our selfish personalities and learn with Jesus how to love >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

So, we in Jesus indeed are not ok with any evil person dying, because now we can minister for someone to become adopted by our Heavenly Father and become a love person.

But there will be judgment, if ones refuse this. And Jesus said it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born. So, if someone lives against God, death would be better . . . death of that selfish self, of course

And then the person can have God's peace almighty to protect him or her (Philippians 4:6-7, Colossians 3:15) against all the nasty cruel emotional stuff, including of worry and unforgiveness, which one's selfish nature makes a person unstable and weak enough to suffer. Instead, a person can be alive in love with God and whoever are His family.

Maria Billingsley · Jul 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
I understand this thread is where any Christian Forum member is welcome to share what he or she has to say, as long as it isn't directly anti-Bible and denying the existence of God.

In another thread >

Deathbed Confessions | Page 4 | Christian Forums >

we got into a debate about if it is wrong for God to order the execution of an evil child. Caliban says never is it moral to kill a child, if I understand Caliban correctly. Here is one of Caliban's posts > we'll start here >
But God is right to do whatever He does with each person. Yes, Jesus means for us humans not to take it on our own selves to kill evil children, but God is the One who gave the order to kill an evil child. This could be partly so the child does not expose others to his horrible example of hating God and hating the good example of ones around him. He could essentially ruin various children and their whole lives, with his influence. And they could go to hell, for eternity; so removing him can be indeed good.

Possibly, you object to people suffering torment for eternity >

So, in case you also believe it is wrong to suffer in hell, then it can indeed be right to remove people who are so horrible that their bad example is helping to keep people away from God so they miss out on how they could enjoy loving and then they go to hell after never having experienced God's way of family caring and sharing love. They are indeed hating God and people, and hate is murder, a death penalty offense > in the New Testament we have >

"He who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15)

So, God knows the heart and His eternal perspective > so, He knows what it is right to do with a murder-hearted person. A murder-hearted person will die . . . one way or another, whenever.

God's focus is on what is eternal, on all He knows about people's hearts, not only on practical morality of what we humans try to dictate is right or wrong!! Also, our Heavenly Father knows His end result which He is bringing about >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

You mention Jesus as your authority for saying God would be wrong to order the execution of an evil child. But Jesus does talk about judgment and its torment for ones who refuse God. And our Apostle Paul does say there are things "deserving of death", in Romans 1:18-32 < in the New Testament brought in by the shed blood of Christ. It is also written >

"But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:13)

So, in case God knows a child is going to become much "worse and worse" before the child dies and then spends eternity in that much worse of a state . . . God can be having mercy on him or her, by having the person die before becoming as horrible and ruined from love as the person could become. And if the person stays here and helps others to hell, how will this effect the person's account on the day of judgment????

But Jesus has died for our sins. Only Jesus could die right for us. So, we can claim His death and put to death our own selfish and evil selves (Luke 9:23-24) . . . executing our selfish selves, now, so now we can become love persons. This is the best judgment and revenge against evil, how God changes us so we are alive in His love in our personalities . . . having executed that evil old self.

But if people hate others by not doing this, they are hating and betraying people's souls, including their own. And hate is murder, deserving of death.

And God knew how those children would become if they had stayed on this earth. They were seeds of who and how they would become. More practically, God knew they could take the Jews the wrong way, into a mixed race so there would be no genealogical line to bring Jesus through Mary who was a Jew. So, there are different ins and outs to what God is doing.

And you will serve His purpose, one way or another.

But yes now we have Jesus who has died with hope for any evil person. Love "hopes all things", we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7. And we may join Jesus by putting to death our selfish personalities and learn with Jesus how to love >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

So, we in Jesus indeed are not ok with any evil person dying, because now we can minister for someone to become adopted by our Heavenly Father and become a love person.

But there will be judgment, if ones refuse this. And Jesus said it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born. So, if someone lives against God, death would be better . . . death of that selfish self, of course And then the person can have God's peace almighty to protect him or her against all the nasty cruel emotional stuff, including of worry and unforgiveness, which one's selfish nature makes a person unstable and weak enough to suffer. Instead, a person can be alive in love with God and whoever are His family.

It appears to be a parental option and tool to scare the son straight. Not many parents would willingly choose to stone their own child for laziness and drunkenness.

com7fy8 · Jul 19, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
It appears to be a parental option and tool to scare the son straight. Not many parents would willingly choose to stone their own child for laziness and drunkenness.

I agree that God gave this command so it would not happen

Arc F1 · Jul 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
I understand this thread is where any Christian Forum member is welcome to share what he or she has to say, as long as it isn't directly anti-Bible and denying the existence of God.

In another thread >

Deathbed Confessions | Page 4 | Christian Forums >

we got into a debate about if it is wrong for God to order the execution of an evil child. Caliban says never is it moral to kill a child, if I understand Caliban correctly. Here is one of Caliban's posts > we'll start here >
But God is right to do whatever He does with each person. Yes, Jesus means for us humans not to take it on our own selves to kill evil children, but God is the One who gave the order to kill an evil child. This could be partly so the child does not expose others to his horrible example of hating God and hating the good example of ones around him. He could essentially ruin various children and their whole lives, with his influence. And they could go to hell, for eternity; so removing him can be indeed good.

Possibly, you object to people suffering torment for eternity >

So, in case you also believe it is wrong to suffer in hell, then it can indeed be right to remove people who are so horrible that their bad example is helping to keep people away from God so they miss out on how they could enjoy loving and then they go to hell after never having experienced God's way of family caring and sharing love. They are indeed hating God and people, and hate is murder, a death penalty offense > in the New Testament we have >

"He who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15)

So, God knows the heart and His eternal perspective > so, He knows what it is right to do with a murder-hearted person. A murder-hearted person will die . . . one way or another, whenever.

God's focus is on what is eternal, on all He knows about people's hearts, not only on practical morality of what we humans try to dictate is right or wrong!! Also, our Heavenly Father knows His end result which He is bringing about >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

You mention Jesus as your authority for saying God would be wrong to order the execution of an evil child. But Jesus does talk about judgment and its torment for ones who refuse God. And our Apostle Paul does say there are things "deserving of death", in Romans 1:18-32 < in the New Testament brought in by the shed blood of Christ. It is also written >

"But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:13)

So, in case God knows a child is going to become much "worse and worse" before the child dies and then spends eternity in that much worse of a state . . . God can be having mercy on him or her, by having the person die before becoming as horrible and ruined from love as the person could become. And if the person stays here and helps others to hell, how will this effect the person's account on the day of judgment????

But Jesus has died for our sins. Only Jesus could die right for us. So, we can claim His death and put to death our own selfish and evil selves (Luke 9:23-24) . . . executing our selfish selves, now, so now we can become love persons. This is the best judgment and revenge against evil, how God changes us so we are alive in His love in our personalities . . . having executed that evil old self.

But if people hate others by not doing this, they are hating and betraying people's souls, including their own. And hate is murder, deserving of death.

And God knew how those children would become if they had stayed on this earth. They were seeds of who and how they would become. More practically, God knew they could take the Jews the wrong way, into a mixed race so there would be no genealogical line to bring Jesus through Mary who was a Jew. So, there are different ins and outs to what God is doing.

And you will serve His purpose, one way or another.

But yes now we have Jesus who has died with hope for any evil person. Love "hopes all things", we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7. And we may join Jesus by putting to death our selfish personalities and learn with Jesus how to love >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

So, we in Jesus indeed are not ok with any evil person dying, because now we can minister for someone to become adopted by our Heavenly Father and become a love person.

But there will be judgment, if ones refuse this. And Jesus said it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born. So, if someone lives against God, death would be better . . . death of that selfish self, of course And then the person can have God's peace almighty to protect him or her against all the nasty cruel emotional stuff, including of worry and unforgiveness, which one's selfish nature makes a person unstable and weak enough to suffer. Instead, a person can be alive in love with God and whoever are His family.

God doesn't think the way we do. We lack his understanding. We still debate the Bible. Could you imagine the time we would have if he told us more?

Caliban · Jul 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
But God is right to do whatever He does with each person. Yes, Jesus means for us humans not to take it on our own selves to kill evil children, but God is the One who gave the order to kill an evil child. This could be partly so the child does not expose others to his horrible example of hating God and hating the good example of ones around him. He could essentially ruin various children and their whole lives, with his influence. And they could go to hell, for eternity; so removing him can be indeed good.

That's just absurd.

Caliban · Jul 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
I understand this thread is where any Christian Forum member is welcome to share what he or she has to say, as long as it isn't directly anti-Bible and denying the existence of God.

I think this request is a bit unreasonable. If I don't believe in a god, how can I engage in a discussion with you without acknowledging that fact. You have just placed a ball and chain around my leg and said, "lets go run a race."

Caliban · Jul 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
I agree that God gave this command so it would not happen

Real people were indeed stoned to death. If God is omniscient, would he know it was going to happen? He gave the law, set the parameters, and allowed it to happen. He could have acted in a different way. Where am I wrong?

com7fy8 · Jul 19, 2020

Caliban said:
That's just absurd. First, I don't think that god exist, second I would still think he was immoral if he did. God kills his own children, sounds great .

Caliban said:
I think this request is a bit unreasonable. If I don't believe in a god, how can I engage in a discussion with you without acknowledging that fact. You have just placed a ball and chain around my leg and said, "lets go run a race."

In my opinion, you are welcome to tell us if you believe in God, but the rules mean we may not directly deny His existence and His word. But we may express questions and concerns, which I would say you are doing. So, thank you for sharing what is so personal for you.

The Bible stipulates that He does not kill those who are His children. His children are the ones who obey Him. Also, Hebrews 12:4-14 . . . to me . . . means our Father personally corrects His children . . . by changing us to become and to love like Jesus. So, actually . . . ones of us understand, then > He does slay us, in a way, by killing what is not like Jesus in us, but then having us live and love, instead. And we do not take this nicely, in the process . . . of how our selfish nature is so grieved but on its way out of us, like demons screaming but on the way out of the ones whom they had possessed before Jesus came along.

So, I say you are welcome and thank you

DamianWarS · Jul 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
I understand this thread is where any Christian Forum member is welcome to share what he or she has to say, as long as it isn't directly anti-Bible and denying the existence of God.

In another thread >

Deathbed Confessions | Page 4 | Christian Forums >

we got into a debate about if it is wrong for God to order the execution of an evil child. Caliban says never is it moral to kill a child, if I understand Caliban correctly. Here is one of Caliban's posts > we'll start here >
But God is right to do whatever He does with each person. Yes, Jesus means for us humans not to take it on our own selves to kill evil children, but God is the One who gave the order to kill an evil child. This could be partly so the child does not expose others to his horrible example of hating God and hating the good example of ones around him. He could essentially ruin various children and their whole lives, with his influence. And they could go to hell, for eternity; so removing him can be indeed good.

Possibly, you object to people suffering torment for eternity >

So, in case you also believe it is wrong to suffer in hell, then it can indeed be right to remove people who are so horrible that their bad example is helping to keep people away from God so they miss out on how they could enjoy loving and then they go to hell after never having experienced God's way of family caring and sharing love. They are indeed hating God and people, and hate is murder, a death penalty offense > in the New Testament we have >

"He who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15)

So, God knows the heart and His eternal perspective > so, He knows what it is right to do with a murder-hearted person. A murder-hearted person will die . . . one way or another, whenever.

God's focus is on what is eternal, on all He knows about people's hearts, not only on practical morality of what we humans try to dictate is right or wrong!! Also, our Heavenly Father knows His end result which He is bringing about >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

You mention Jesus as your authority for saying God would be wrong to order the execution of an evil child. But Jesus does talk about judgment and its torment for ones who refuse God. And our Apostle Paul does say there are things "deserving of death", in Romans 1:18-32 < in the New Testament brought in by the shed blood of Christ. It is also written >

"But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:13)

So, in case God knows a child is going to become much "worse and worse" before the child dies, and then spend eternity in even much worse of a state (because of first becoming much worse in this life) . . . God can be having mercy on him or her, by having the person die before becoming as horrible and ruined from love as the person could become. And if the person stays here and helps others to hell, how will this effect the person's account on the day of judgment????

But Jesus has died for our sins. Only Jesus could die right for us. So, we can claim His death and put to death our own selfish and evil selves (Luke 9:23-24) . . . executing our selfish selves, now, so now we can become love persons. This is the best judgment and revenge against evil, how God changes us so we are alive in His love in our personalities . . . having executed that evil old self.

But if people hate others by not doing this, they are hating and betraying people's souls, including their own. And hate is murder, deserving of death.

And God knew how those children would become if they had stayed on this earth. They were seeds of who and how they would become > Galatians 6:7-8 > reaping so much more in their end, of how they had been, at first. And in their resurrection, how they became by the time they died can be so greatly multiplied spiritually and emotionally, once they no longer have their bodies to feel some nice thing to try to mask and dilute the feelings of that deep-down horribleness of their selfishness-infected nature. We all shall reap so much more than those little seeds we have sown.

More practically, God knew they could take the Jews the wrong way, into a mixed race so there would be no genealogical line to bring Jesus through Mary who was a Jew. So, there are different ins and outs to what God is doing.

And you will serve His purpose, one way or another.

But yes now we have Jesus who has died with hope for any evil person. Love "hopes all things", we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7. And we may join Jesus by putting to death our selfish personalities and learn with Jesus how to love >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

So, we in Jesus indeed are not ok with any evil person dying, because now we can minister for someone to become adopted by our Heavenly Father and become a love person.

But there will be judgment, if ones refuse this. And Jesus said it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born. So, if someone lives against God, death would be better . . . death of that selfish self, of course And then the person can have God's peace almighty to protect him or her (Philippians 4:6-7, Colossians 3:15) against all the nasty cruel emotional stuff, including of worry and unforgiveness, which one's selfish nature makes a person unstable and weak enough to suffer. Instead, a person can be alive in love with God and whoever are His family.

Tell me the conditions for a child to be evil?

com7fy8 · Jul 19, 2020

Caliban said:
Real people were indeed stoned to death. If God is omniscient, would he know it was going to happen? He gave the law, set the parameters, and allowed it to happen. He could have acted in a different way. Where am I wrong?

Yes He does know.

And going by what I have read in the Bible, I see the overall message shows how God is not only all-knowing, but all-managing. He did not allow any Mosaically legal stoning, but He commanded it.

My opinion is the earlier ways and things are a foil of how God does things through Jesus > a God-produced object lesson of how even God without Christ can not bring the really good results in people. It's damned if you do and damned if you don't, even for God.

The different way He could have acted has come now through Jesus.

Now, however you are wrong is deeper than even you might be able to see. God sees our secrets. He is the One able to personally share with you, better than I could hope.

Caliban · Jul 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
In my opinion, you are welcome to tell us if you believe in God, but the rules mean we may not directly deny His existence and His word

I am saying that I don't believe a god exists. I am not saying there is not god. Maybe you don't see the difference; but there is a difference and it is significant.

You say the Bible claims that God does not kill his children, but then how do they die of stoning? Humans throw the rocks, but who told them to do it? When I was a Christian, I believed that God was sovereign and that he killed people--sometimes a whole planet at a time. Did God kill people in the flood? What about Ananias and Sapphira?

Caliban · Jul 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
He did not allow any Mosaically legal stoning, but He commanded it.

What??? That make no sense. Are you saying no one ever died of stoning?

com7fy8 · Jul 19, 2020

DamianWarS said:
Tell me the conditions for a child to be evil?

You identify as Christian; so possibly you already know some of what would answer your question, based on your own experience and your knowledge of the Bible. So, I will offer my personal take, which is not all there is to say about this, to go with what you already might know >

I'll start with how I was. I could have been stoned, no question. All I was about was candy and ice cream and dog friends, as a younger kid > totally nothing to do with God. Then I became a gratuitous bully who was secretly planning to derail trains in order to kill and cripple as many people as I could; during the seventh grade, I was exercising my mind for that (about 65 years ago when we didn't have mass sucker killers running around; they would have made me jealous!); I was planning that as revenge against all humans, because a church doorman refused to babysit my dog friend until I got back out of Mass.

God stopped me, to keep it simple.

So, I would be one example. But it seems people hardly knew the difference, so they could have stoned me. I now would say it is good to get to know your children, really, and share enough with them so they do not value dog friends more than sharing and caring as family with other people.

In the early scriptures, in Moses' Law, we have a number of death penalty offenses for children, things which would mean they are evil, I understand.

But - - deeper . . . what can make even little kids be evil?

All have been born in sin. This is a Bible basic, I would say; there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," we have in Ephesians 2:2; the spirit of selfishness can get the better of us, because of the weakness of any person's selfish nature without Jesus. Plus, with this I personally accept that a child could not be a perfect angel and saved, in the womb, and then every one of them would fall to Satan and all be "short of the glory of God" like the Bible says in Romans 3:23. That would mean they lost their salvation, and other things . . . that God had them saved in the womb but then let go of every one of us. I find that God's word says that when He adopts a child out of Satan's kingdom > Acts 26:17-18 > He keeps someone He has adopted.

Jesus, now . . . then . . . of course . . . would say "let the one without sin cast the first stone." All of us have been guilty of some sort of death penalty thing, inside of us, at least. Our Apostle Paul says all of us have been "children of wrath" (in Ephesians 2:3). That would mean we all have been evil.

So, however you yourself have been selfish and whatever without Jesus, that would be included in what makes a child evil. You can answer this from your own experience.

One thing I note is how, often enough, a child can be oriented mainly or only to oneself and can be very mean when not getting his or her own way. This is directly contrary to how Jesus says every one of us needs to deny oneself in order to follow Jesus >

"If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up His cross daily, and follow Me." (in Luke 9:23)

The evil is not always obvious. But while we are not real and strong in Jesus, we still can have ready-to-go ability to react in a very dangerous and cruel and abusive way if and when someone effectively messes with something we have for a pleasure treasure . . . maybe . . . like ice cream and candy . . . even such innocent sounding things. But you have seen how certain people have turned into acting like lunatics when they do not get what they dictate. Any of us, I now would say, is at risk of this, if we keep holding on to any pleasure which is a treasure.

"For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also," Jesus warns > Matthew 6:21.

By evil, then, I mean what can be anti-love or weakening us from how we could be loving. But, then, I would not say every child has to be evil because of not being perfectly strong in Jesus' way of loving. But whatever is stopping or hinders us is evil.

But in my case . . . I was evil.

grasping the after wind · Jul 19, 2020

Caliban said:
I am saying that I don't believe a god exists. I am not saying there is not god. Maybe you don't see the difference; but there is a difference and it is significant.

You say the Bible claims that God does not kill his children, but then how do they die of stoning? Humans throw the rocks, but who told them to do it? When I was a Christian, I believed that God was sovereign and that he killed people--sometimes a whole planet at a time. Did God kill people in the flood? What about Ananias and Sapphira?

If one has faith in the Creator God (Christian Trinitarian God or any other idea of a Creator God.) one's moral ideology might, as mine does, incline toward the following. God created death so he is responsible for all deaths. He also created life so He is responsible for all lives. Additionally He created everything in between so he is responsible for all that too. As the Creator, He gets to decide what His creation is supposed to be. What He decides is morally upright is then the definition of what morally upright means what He decides is immoral is then the definition of immoral. Remember, He did not come across creation and start to meddle in it, He created it , all of it. He decided what He wanted and created it. Who am I to tell Him I know better so He must conform to my ideas about morality?

com7fy8 · Jul 19, 2020

Caliban said:
You say the Bible claims that God does not kill his children, but then how do they die of stoning?

I mean those were not His children. His children undergo His correction so we live His way; and so we would not qualify for the death penalty.

Now, maybe I do understand how you see things. There are people who say all humans are God's children. And there is indeed scripture which can be used to back this up. But also there is scripture that says >

"if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (in Hebrews 12:8)

So, to me this means not all humans are children who have been adopted through the shed blood of Christ and who are being corrected.

The good thing is this means our Heavenly Father does personally correct His children . . . so we are strong and sound in love which keeps us safe from "torment" (1 John 4:18) of fear and other cruel and evil things.

com7fy8 said:
He did not allow any Mosaically legal stoning, but He commanded it.

Caliban said:
What??? That make no sense. Are you saying no one ever died of stoning?

Maybe we can understand this more clearly.

I mean > God did not only "allow" stoning to be done, but He actually commanded it.

Oh . . . and yes I think you have made yourself clear that you are not directly denying God's existence, but you are not sure if He exists. In any case, thank you for trying to make me clear, in case I'm still not getting it. I do see you identify as a "Skeptic", which I understand is not the same as someone who denies God's existence.

Caliban · Jul 19, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
If one has faith in the Creator God (Christian Trinitarian God or any other idea of a Creator God.) one's moral ideology might, as mine does, incline toward the following. God created death so he is responsible for all deaths. He also created life so He is responsible for all lives. Additionally He created everything in between so he is responsible for all that too. As the Creator, He gets to decide what His creation is supposed to be. What He decides is morally upright is then the definition of what morally upright means what He decides is immoral is then the definition of immoral. Remember, He did not come across creation and start to meddle in it, He created it , all of it. He decided what He wanted and created it. Who am I to tell Him I know better so He must conform to my ideas about morality?

I see not reason to conclude morality should be based on a creator god that is unobservable. Morality should be human centered and any murder of humans should be considered in light of what humans think about it.

Caliban · Jul 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
I mean those were not His children. His children undergo His correction so we live His way; and so we would not qualify for the death penalty.

That doesn't solve the moral problem at all. It your scenario, God still kills humans for unspecified rebellion--that could mean anything.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21

grasping the after wind · Jul 19, 2020

Caliban said:
I see not reason to conclude morality should be based on a creator god that is unobservable. Morality should be human centered and any murder of humans should be considered in light of what humans think about it.

Of course you see no reason! You do not see a God at all. However, I am not asking you to do so I am simply explaining what those that do have faith in a Creator God are likely to believe about morality so that you understand where they are coming from. As I advise Christians not to make their case to any non believer using the Bible as evidence of what they should think, I would advise non believers to not try to make a case ignoring the faith of those they are discussing morality with. For instance, I see no reason that morality should be human centered. I understand that the reason you don't see morality as I do is based upon the differences between the basic assumptions we make about the existence of a Creator God. I believe in Him, you do not. From those starting points we are unlikely to reach any agreement on what the basis for morality ought to be. Even if we are more often than not in agreement upon which actions might or might not be immoral.

Caliban · Jul 19, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
Of course you see no reason! You do not see a God at all. However, I am not asking you to do so I am simply explaining what those that do have faith in a Creator God are likely to believe about morality so that you understand where they are coming from.

But you are doing more than explaining, you are making truth claims. When you say there IS a god, you are adopting the burden of proof--which is fine by the way; it's just that people will ask you to demonstrate the claim is true. My basis of morality is human centered, but I can shoe evidence of what is good and bad for humans. When religious believers make claims that influence public policy, ultimately affecting me, I want some darned evidence it is true.

eleos1954 · Jul 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
I understand this thread is where any Christian Forum member is welcome to share what he or she has to say, as long as it isn't directly anti-Bible and denying the existence of God.

In another thread >

Deathbed Confessions | Page 4 | Christian Forums >

we got into a debate about if it is wrong for God to order the execution of an evil child. Caliban says never is it moral to kill a child, if I understand Caliban correctly. Here is one of Caliban's posts > we'll start here >
But God is right to do whatever He does with each person. Yes, Jesus means for us humans not to take it on our own selves to kill evil children, but God is the One who gave the order to kill an evil child. This could be partly so the child does not expose others to his horrible example of hating God and hating the good example of ones around him. He could essentially ruin various children and their whole lives, with his influence. And they could go to hell, for eternity; so removing him can be indeed good.

Possibly, you object to people suffering torment for eternity >

So, in case you also believe it is wrong to suffer in hell, then it can indeed be right to remove people who are so horrible that their bad example is helping to keep people away from God so they miss out on how they could enjoy loving and then they go to hell after never having experienced God's way of family caring and sharing love. They are indeed hating God and people, and hate is murder, a death penalty offense > in the New Testament we have >

"He who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15)

So, God knows the heart and His eternal perspective > so, He knows what it is right to do with a murder-hearted person. A murder-hearted person will die . . . one way or another, whenever.

God's focus is on what is eternal, on all He knows about people's hearts, not only on practical morality of what we humans try to dictate is right or wrong!! Also, our Heavenly Father knows His end result which He is bringing about >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

You mention Jesus as your authority for saying God would be wrong to order the execution of an evil child. But Jesus does talk about judgment and its torment for ones who refuse God. And our Apostle Paul does say there are things "deserving of death", in Romans 1:18-32 < in the New Testament brought in by the shed blood of Christ. It is also written >

"But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:13)

So, in case God knows a child is going to become much "worse and worse" before the child dies, and then spend eternity in even much worse of a state (because of first becoming much worse in this life) . . . God can be having mercy on him or her, by having the person die before becoming as horrible and ruined from love as the person could become. And if the person stays here and helps others to hell, how will this effect the person's account on the day of judgment????

But Jesus has died for our sins. Only Jesus could die right for us. So, we can claim His death and put to death our own selfish and evil selves (Luke 9:23-24) . . . executing our selfish selves, now, so now we can become love persons. This is the best judgment and revenge against evil, how God changes us so we are alive in His love in our personalities . . . having executed that evil old self.

But if people hate others by not doing this, they are hating and betraying people's souls, including their own. And hate is murder, deserving of death.

And God knew how those children would become if they had stayed on this earth. They were seeds of who and how they would become > Galatians 6:7-8 > reaping so much more in their end, of how they had been, at first. And in their resurrection, how they became by the time they died can be so greatly multiplied spiritually and emotionally, once they no longer have their bodies to feel some nice thing to try to mask and dilute the feelings of that deep-down horribleness of their selfishness-infected nature. We all shall reap so much more than those little seeds we have sown.

More practically, God knew they could take the Jews the wrong way, into a mixed race so there would be no genealogical line to bring Jesus through Mary who was a Jew. So, there are different ins and outs to what God is doing.

And you will serve His purpose, one way or another.

But yes now we have Jesus who has died with hope for any evil person. Love "hopes all things", we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7. And we may join Jesus by putting to death our selfish personalities and learn with Jesus how to love >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

So, we in Jesus indeed are not ok with any evil person dying, because now we can minister for someone to become adopted by our Heavenly Father and become a love person.

But there will be judgment, if ones refuse this. And Jesus said it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born. So, if someone lives against God, death would be better . . . death of that selfish self, of course And then the person can have God's peace almighty to protect him or her (Philippians 4:6-7, Colossians 3:15) against all the nasty cruel emotional stuff, including of worry and unforgiveness, which one's selfish nature makes a person unstable and weak enough to suffer. Instead, a person can be alive in love with God and whoever are His family.

com7fy8 said:
Possibly, you object to people suffering torment for eternity >

I do object to this teaching and invite you to re-study it in depth.

Our loving just God is not a torturer for enternity.

Would it be "moral" for God to order the killing of children?

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