Is Satan a real being or a term to identify any enemy or concept opposing God?

fwGod

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You have yet to learn what being exact is.
Quoting scripture ver batim is being exact. Adding words that mean something only to you and expecting everyone to understand without an explanation, is not exact.
Have you ever sat under a teacher that studies eight hours a day, and teaches six nights of the week? Teaches from the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic texts? Teaches in depth historical backgrounds for given passages, as to place what was said into its historical context?
I listen to several who do just that.
You want exact?
My discipline of exactness comes from listening to them. What you listen to you will soon sound like them.
You have yet to learn what that means.
If you have also listened to preachers of extensive Bible knowledge, then why do you add your own words without explanation of what you precisely mean? Is it because they do that?
The reason I express myself the way I do here with you is because I am in no position to teach as you think you want to see.
I am not asking you to teach me. Neither am I taking upon myself to teach you. We are just two Christians having a conversation.
That would require that you would need to become a full time student, dedicated to a life of learning.
That is what every Christian is supposed to do.
Are you willing? Only a few are.
I am already taking training in Bible knowledge by personal study and by researching what other teachers of excellence teach.
Jesus said that only a few believers will find the Life He came to give for those living on earth.
That would be by doing and not just hearing.
He also said that most believers will prefer to choose from the broad and wide array teachings that are geared towards personal preferences that ones' particular emotional pattern desires and demands.
I don't listen to teacher's like that.
For every emotional pattern there is? There has been a denomination raised.... including the heretical ones.
Just yesterday I was reading about Irenaeus dealing with heretics in his day. He said that he's not so learned as others might be, but I thought he did very well in writing like them.
So be it.
I don't know what that is in response to so I'll just say.. That is what 'Amen' means. It's a way of agreeing with what God said in His word by saying 'may what you have spoken come to pass'.
 
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Steven Beck

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Matthew 16:23 (NKJV)
23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."

Jesus calls Peter Satan and it is interesting why:

Matthew 16:21-22 (NKJV)
21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!"

This doesn't mean there is not an Archangel called Satan. My position is similar to Judaism where Satan is a metaphoric title implying evil. The verses above are straight talk and not parable but clearly Peter is not an Archangel.

The translators present Satan as a person; but is it true?

Read the Bible

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

Luk 4:1 And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness
Luk 4:2 for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing during those days. And when they were ended, he was hungry.
Luk 4:3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.”
Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’”
Luk 4:5 And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time,
Luk 4:6 and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will.
Luk 4:7 If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.”
Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’”
Luk 4:9 And he took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here,
Luk 4:10 for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you,’
Luk 4:11 and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answered him, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
Luk 4:13 And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.

Mar 1:12 The Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness.
Mar 1:13 And he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan. And he was with the wild animals, and the angels were ministering to him.

Scripture says that with "2 or 3 witnesses a matter shall be established". Deut 17:6, 2 Co 13:1

It is pretty obvious that Satan is a real being and further research will tell you He was originally called Lucifer (angel of light) and He was the leader of the angels.
 
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GenemZ

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Grace is God doing in us what we cannot do on our own. I would not call that 'control'. I'd call that our yielding to His working in us.

Not all control is bad. You seem to think controlling another is some form of evil.

When a person has a pacemaker implanted it 'controls' the heart as to make it function as it should.

Likewise, grace controls us as to have us function as we should.

.......
 
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sparow

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John had a vision, he didn't leave the earth. It's a revelation, not ascension to heaven.

Everyone who is born again (saved) has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. Those who are not saved, don't.

Heaven is effectively an imaginary place anyway. I don't know who wrote the first three verse of Revelation, but the grammar suggests it wasn't John; referring to the revelation, verse one says: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. What John said, verse 10, Revelation 1:10 (NKJV)
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

John was in the presence of Christ, whether he ascended or not doesn't seem to be important.

My understanding is that being born again is in two parts, in the beginning and in the end; in the beginning a person is a seed planted that may become fruit or may become a tare, at the end born again is fruit being harvested and raised incorruptible. It is true those not saved are not saved and would not have the Holy Spirit.
 
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sparow

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Read the Bible

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

Luk 4:1 And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness
Luk 4:2 for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing during those days. And when they were ended, he was hungry.
Luk 4:3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.”
Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’”
Luk 4:5 And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time,
Luk 4:6 and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will.
Luk 4:7 If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.”
Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’”
Luk 4:9 And he took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here,
Luk 4:10 for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you,’
Luk 4:11 and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answered him, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
Luk 4:13 And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.

Mar 1:12 The Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness.
Mar 1:13 And he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan. And he was with the wild animals, and the angels were ministering to him.

Scripture says that with "2 or 3 witnesses a matter shall be established". Deut 17:6, 2 Co 13:1

It is pretty obvious that Satan is a real being and further research will tell you He was originally called Lucifer (angel of light) and He was the leader of the angels.

These verses do not prove the matter; nor do they constitute 2 or 3 witnesses. There two positions being considered. First, there is taking the words literally or in other words , legally. Secondly, here the words are taken literarily where it is sought what the writer means as opposed to what the words mean.

As for the two witnesses, the OT and the NT, in the OT Satan is the personification of "enemy", not a specific enemy; in the NT "devil" is used which is a specific; so the two witnesses disagree.

The word Lucifer only appears in the KJV, NkJV, because of the particular document it is translated from.

If we take the position that Satan is not a particular or specific sentient entity, then we read that meaning into the verses you quote and vis versa.
 
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Steven Beck

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These verses do not prove the matter; nor do they constitute 2 or 3 witnesses. There two positions being considered. First, there is taking the words literally or in other words , legally. Secondly, here the words are taken literarily where it is sought what the writer means as opposed to what the words mean.

As for the two witnesses, the OT and the NT, in the OT Satan is the personification of "enemy", not a specific enemy; in the NT "devil" is used which is a specific; so the two witnesses disagree.

The word Lucifer only appears in the KJV, NkJV, because of the particular document it is translated from.

If we take the position that Satan is not a particular or specific sentient entity, then we read that meaning into the verses you quote and vis versa.

Oh you poor guy. You disregard scripture and then make things up to suit yourself.

Jesus discourse with Satan is written in 3 different texts so that makes 3 witnesses. Disregarding that alone means that anything else you say is just blowing in the wind.
 
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Steven Beck

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Heaven is effectively an imaginary place anyway. I don't know who wrote the first three verse of Revelation, but the grammar suggests it wasn't John; referring to the revelation, verse one says: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. What John said, verse 10, Revelation 1:10 (NKJV)
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

John was in the presence of Christ, whether he ascended or not doesn't seem to be important.

My understanding is that being born again is in two parts, in the beginning and in the end; in the beginning a person is a seed planted that may become fruit or may become a tare, at the end born again is fruit being harvested and raised incorruptible. It is true those not saved are not saved and would not have the Holy Spirit.

Scripture is real, everything you wrote above is imaginary. Repent of your sins and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and you will be saved.
 
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GenemZ

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Oh you poor guy. You disregard scripture and then make things up to suit yourself.

Because he thinks we do the same. He feels free to do so.. He does not understand that the Holy Spirit makes things real the believer. So? He assumes his guess is as good as our guess, thus exposing himself by how he judges others.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Oh you poor guy. You disregard scripture and then make things up to suit yourself.

Jesus discourse with Satan is written in 3 different texts so that makes 3 witnesses. Disregarding that alone means that anything else you say is just blowing in the wind.
yes besides that we have several other " witnesses" from both testaments regarding the person/angelic being known as satan, the devil, the deceiver,lucifer, etc......

And if he is not real then neither is Jesus since He claimed to engage the devil several times during His ministry. Our Lord said he was real and His enemy and so did His Apostles.
 
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fwGod

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Heaven is effectively an imaginary place anyway.
The Bible is the truth. Jesus said (John 17:17) while in prayer to God who resides in heaven. "Your Word is Truth." [capitalization's mine]. The entirety of the sentence says "Sanctify them by the Truth. Your Word is Truth."

So if heaven is imaginary, and since the Bible tells us that God dwells there, then what the Bible says about heaven and God is imaginary, and Jesus being sent to earth to be crucified then raised from the dead, our being saved, and sanctified.. is all imaginary. Nothing in the Bible can be relied upon, our faith is vain. And we are all false witnesses... if heaven is imaginary. [based on portions of 1 Cor.15]

But, the gospel is proved to be true by God who cannot lie, as said in Titus 1:2 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began.

Titus 3:7 so that, having been justified by His grace, we would become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

1 Sam.15:29 Moreover, the Glory of Israel does not lie or change His mind, for He is not a man, that He should change His mind.

Heb.6:18 Thus by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be strongly encouraged.

Ps.119:160 The entirety of Your Word is true.

So that all who hear the gospel and believe, have the assurance in their hearts concerning salvation and becoming a child of God, born again. And upon death to go to heaven where God resides. Where Jesus ascended to.

Therefore what it says about heaven, about God, about all in the Bible is the truth, except where the context indicates that an unbeliever speaks a lie. But even that sort of incident tells the truth about the matter.
I don't know who wrote the first three verse of Revelation, but the grammar suggests it wasn't John.

Revelation 1:1-3 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw-that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.​

I'm an amateur writer and I've experimented with writing in the third person so I recognize that the writing style is narrative summary written by the author, the apostle John. Even as the books of Moses were written by him, though he speaks of all things as an observer, and therefore himself in the third person.

Since the apostle John was alone on the isle of Patmos when he had the revelation, it doesn't make sense that some unknown person would be there with him to write a beginning summary because for some reason John couldn't..? And in his haste he forgot to..? Or that someone reading it, thought it needed it..?

That would violate what John wrote that no one add to what was written. It would only make sense that since he was alone that he used a writing style for the beginning then continued on through to write what he saw, sometimes in first person, other times in observatory third person.

Unless you think that every observation in third person was written by someone else who also got the same revelation.
referring to the revelation, verse one says: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. What John said, verse 10, Revelation 1:10 (NKJV)
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

John was in the presence of Christ, whether he ascended or not doesn't seem to be important.
It says that John was in the spirit on the Lord's day.

In Luke 2:27 it says, He (Simeon) came in the spirit into the temple.

It could then be said that the presence of the Lord was with him in both cases.

When someone mistakes a revelation received while firmly staying on the ground, with literally ascending into heaven.. then it does make a difference of which actually occurred.
My understanding is that being born again is in two parts, in the beginning and in the end; in the beginning a person is a seed planted that may become fruit or may become a tare, at the end born again is fruit being harvested and raised incorruptible. It is true those not saved are not saved and would not have the Holy Spirit.
You are speaking of the parable of the wheat and the tares that Jesus taught concerning all people up until the time of harvest.
The believers are described as wheat or barley growing in a field while the unbelievers are described as tares which look similar as a grain-based plant.
It takes the experienced eye to discern between the good crop and the bad crop.

The time of harvest and the Great White Throne Judgement is the same thing. It happens after the Tribulation.

In Mat.7 Jesus presides over discerning the good from the evil. Even though (vs 15) the false prophet says that he is good because he did good things, yet Jesus knows that he is lawless, declaring "I never knew you, depart from me." Mat.7:23.
In 2 Timothy 2:19 it says, Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The LORD knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the LORD must turn away from wickedness."

The false prophet said "Lord, Lord.." but since Jesus called him 'lawless' that means that he never believed in His name and thus was saved.

Jhn 1:12 To all who receive him, to them are given power/authority to become the children of God, even those who believe in His name.

Jhn 6:37 says, All that the Father gives me shall come to me, and him that comes to me I will not at all cast out.

Comparing Mat.7:23 with Mat.25:31-46, Jesus judges all according to their deeds while they were alive. In 41 Jesus says to the wicked, Depart.. into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.

That coincides with the wheat and tares parable that states that the tares are to be gathered up and burned.

So, yes.. those who didn't receive Jesus as their Savior while they were alive will not at death have any opportunity to be saved after they'd died, even when raised up in order to be judged for deeds done while they were alive. Jesus in Mat.7 did not offer redemption to (vs 15) the false prophet.
 
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fwGod

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Not all control is bad. You seem to think controlling another is some form of evil.
When you say that without any conditional language added to it, then yes, the mind can connect control with evil.
When a person has a pacemaker implanted it 'controls' the heart as to make it function as it should.

Likewise, grace controls us as to have us function as we should.

.......
The person who has a pacemaker has nothing whatsoever to do with it working. Whereas, grace requires the co-operation of the person. Grace has no effect if the person doesn't respond in receiving with gratitude and thanksgiving.
 
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GenemZ

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The person who has a pacemaker has nothing whatsoever to do with it working.

Not true. He must keep appointments to make sure its kept in running order. Our appointments need to be kept with 1 John 1:9.

Whereas, grace requires the co-operation of the person. Grace has no effect if the person doesn't respond in receiving with gratitude and thanksgiving.

Grace requires staying in fellowship (filling) of the Holy Spirit! Grace is only given to those who remain humble before God. Admitting one's sins takes humility...

Again, our part is keeping short accounts when we sin, and to instantly resort to 1 John 1:9 once we see sin manifested! Having gained knowledge in the many ways we can sin helps get the circuit breaker reset quickly!


If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins
and purify us from all unrighteousness."



grace and peace!
 
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fwGod

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Your previous analogy of grace as a pacemaker, and my response that grace is not effective if the person rejects it.
Not true. He must keep appointments to make sure its kept in running order. Our appointments need to be kept with 1 John 1:9.
What I said is true.

What you say assumes that the person is willing. My statement is regarding those who are not willing.

The person who already has the pacemaker will keep the appointments on the instructions and advice of the doctor. That would be co-operation by having first submitted to surgery.

The thread is about the devil who opposes God and our exchange is about people who are influenced by the devil.

Both Jesus, and then Paul said in quoting the same scripture ".. they have eyes but do not see, they have ears but do not hear, they have no understanding in their heart.."

There's the people who have spiritual heart trouble. But, if they have eyes to see, ears to hear and understand in their heart .. "they turn to be healed and I will heal them."..

However, in the cases where they are written.. the verse(s) is/are used concerning those who don't turn to God.

Therefore using your example the person with a bad heart would refuse to go to the doctor's office to be examined in the first place, he would therefore not have the surgery and certainly not have any post-op checkups.

In that case, (grace, the pacemaker) won't do the person any good. It (grace, the pacemaker) is there waiting to be used on his behalf. Grace that brings salvation is the pacemaker that aids the disfunctioning heart, but he is like

2 Cor.4:4 says, In their case, the god of this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe to keep them from seeing the light of the glorious gospel of the Messiah, who is the image of God.​

So he, in ignorance of what's going on, decides not to have anything to do with grace.

But I don't want to leave the seeking unbeliever like that. So here are a series of scriptures unto salvation.

This is not an exhaustive list.

Jhn.3:16 God so loved the world that whosoever shall believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
2 Corinthians 5:19 God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting anyone's sins against them. And He has given us the ministry of reconciliation so we plead in Christ's stead, be reconciled unto God.
2 Cor.6:2 Today is the day of salvation, now is the time of His favor.
Ephes.2 salvation is by grace, not of works lest anyone should boast.
Jhn.6:37 Those who come to Him will not be cast out.
Col.1:13 delivered out of the authority of darkness and transported into the kingdom of God's dear Son in whom is redemption and forgiveness of all sin.
Jhn.1:12 all who believe shall be given the power to become the children of God.
1 Jhn.3:1 how great a love the Father bestows upon you that you should be His child.
1 Jhn.4:16 to know and believe the love that God has for you.
Isa.61:10 and have joy of salvation through Jesus Christ.
1 Pet.2:9 that you proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness and into His marvelous light.​
Grace requires staying in fellowship (filling) of the Holy Spirit!
You must think that it doesn't need explanation. But it does. Because every Christian already has the Holy Spirit.. even if a wrong is done. The Holy Spirit doesn't leave.

Repentance is to restore fellowship. So what does 'filling' have to do with it?
grace and peace!
 
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GenemZ

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Your previous analogy of grace as a pacemaker, and my response that grace is not effective if the person rejects it.
What I said is true.

What you say assumes that the person is willing. My statement is regarding those who are not willing.

You got your own angle on something. People can reject grace after they are saved by becoming arrogant and proud.

In the mean time...

Without a pacemaker the person would die. Without grace we will die the sin onto death.
Neglecting 1 John 1:9 is like a person refusing to see his doctor to have a new battery put in when needed.

If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death,
you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does
not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that
you should pray about that."
1 John 5:16​

The man's heart is malfunctioning and needs a pacemaker. Correct?

The person having the gift of grace given at salvation is like accepting the pacemaker, and not refusing it to begin with.

We can not operate as God approves without the filling of the Spirit actin as a pacemaker for our soul. For the pacemaker corrects and prevents the malfunction of our soul if the flesh took control as it was before grace (pacemaker) was made operational.


But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made
perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me."
2 Cor 12:9​

I know someone who had a pacemaker and he had to maintain it to keep it functioning properly.

I still do not know what your point is. So, far. What I am saying agrees with Scripture. What your theory is? I do not know.
 
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sparow

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Oh you poor guy. You disregard scripture and then make things up to suit yourself.

Jesus discourse with Satan is written in 3 different texts so that makes 3 witnesses. Disregarding that alone means that anything else you say is just blowing in the wind.

Do you know what a witness is; there is nothing in the scriptures that record that discourse mentioning witnesses; the apostles didn't witness it; the apostles had not been called into service at that time.
 
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Steven Beck

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Not all control is bad. You seem to think controlling another is some form of evil.

When a person has a pacemaker implanted it 'controls' the heart as to make it function as it should.

Likewise, grace controls us as to have us function as we should.

.......

Sorry cannot agree. Grace is God looking at us through His Son Jesus and not counting us as sinners. God controls no one.
 
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Steven Beck

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Do you know what a witness is; there is nothing in the scriptures that record that discourse mentioning witnesses; the apostles didn't witness it; the apostles had not been called into service at that time.

Since you seem to think that heaven is imaginary there is no point continuing the discussion.
 
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GenemZ

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Sorry cannot agree. Grace is God looking at us through His Son Jesus and not counting us as sinners. God controls no one.
I think we do not understand what grace is. They confuse it with justification.

Grace is power given by God to cause us not to walk in our weaknesses in Adam. Its like a pacemaker controlling a weak heart to make that person function as he should, but can not do so without God;s power of grace being given!

And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength
is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast
in my infirmities (humilty), that the power of Christ may rest upon me."

2 Cor 12:9​

That says God gives power to control us out of our weaknesses! That takes power and control! Did not the Holy Spirit control Samson in battle making Samson strong?

Why can you not get that? Your concept of grace is not correct. Do not confuse justification for grace. They work together, but are not the same things!

Grace is conditional after salvation. Believers can fall from grace. Its why we are warned not to walk after the flesh.

This was said to believers. Saved believers who were initially saved by grace and were justified!


5 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders.
Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with
humility, for “God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”


6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God,
that He may exalt you in due time."
1 Pet 5:5-6​

That was a warning written to believers! Some here think only unbelievers are not given grace. God only gives grace to humble believers... not simply because they are a believer.

Peter was talking about those who were young in the Word becoming arrogant towards those who knew better and mature in the Word. It happens here all the time.



6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:
“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”


7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil
and he will flee from you"
Jms 4:6-7​

Young believers can become proud and listen to the devil whispering into his ear worldly concepts making them resist truth that demands their own life. Instead, they are to learn to resist the devil by considering truth that shows them impossible to be correct.

We also see that here all the time. Someone, no matter how many passages contradict his stand, will oppose and keep finding new passages to use out of context to prove his wrong point. As long as he keep following that inspiration he is not resisting the devil. Sorry to say... That very factor is what makes certain threads here last for months when it should have been short and sweet.


grace and peace......
 
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GenemZ

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Do you know what a witness is; there is nothing in the scriptures that record that discourse mentioning witnesses; the apostles didn't witness it; the apostles had not been called into service at that time.

And, Moses was not around to see the creation either. He was not called into service at the time of the creation!

The Holy Spirit bears witness when God so chooses to reveal what can not be seen.

Like you can not see a lot. And we are bearing witness against your pro-Satan stand.
 
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GenemZ

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Sorry cannot agree. Grace is God looking at us through His Son Jesus and not counting us as sinners. God controls no one.


What you referred to is Justification. Not grace. God controls as a means to make your soul FREE!

Justification is the Cross nullifying all that stood between us and the Holy God. And, by Christ granting us His righteousness that we have been given.

How do we know this? After all.. Our flesh being opposed to the Spirit would reject the notion. Its by grace.. God's power of grace enables is to have faith to believe it.

For if we were devoid of grace? Our flesh with its depravity would dominate our soul. In that state? We could not believe anything from God! Grace suppresses the sin nature (controls it) so that our soul is made free to believe what it wants to believe. We still must choose to believe what we do. God levels the playing field by sucking the sin nature out of the equation while we choose what to believe. Calvinists who understand the implications of the depravity of man assume that God makes us believe. Actually, God makes us able to believe. That enabling is "grace."

Grace is enabling power from God to make us able to (not that we will) function as He desires of us. Enabling us in a way we would otherwise be impotent to function in our own energy and abilities alone.


I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace,
given me through the working of His power."
- Eph 3:7


But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me
was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them
yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me."
1Cor 15:10​


Believers are constantly confusing God's grace with God's mercy and love. Confusing grace with God's forgiveness. And, confusing grace for the Justification of God. Justification by the Cross and placing us in union with Christ.

I have yet to see someone confuse grace for faith.

For we only can have the ability to have faith by the enabling power of grace! Faith = what we believe. Grace suppresses our sin nature so our soul can think clearly to be made free to believe!

There is much sloppy thinking that is emotion based... not truth based. Subjective vs Objective thinking. Sound doctrine is not sought by many. Instead they seek doctrines that will give them a common ground with others, so they can bond socially into a group emotionally as one. Its kind of like when men bonded around the concept of the earth being flat. They were all very sure of themselves and liked the comraderie. Churches too often end up being that way because sound doctrine is not allowed other than the very basic doctrines.

In Christ....
 
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