The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

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@Healing with Jesus

I renamed point U, and I explained it a little better (if you are interested).

#1. Conditional Election (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#2. Conditional Salvation.
#3. Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority; A.K.A. Free Will Involving One’s Choice Towards the Lord, Grace, or Salvation (Note: Christ draws all men unto Himself, and God is not willing that any should perish.) (Note: All men are given an opportunity or opportunities by God to understand the "Offer of the Love of the Truth" so that they are able to receive it, or reject it of their own free will. - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10.).
#4. Provisional Majority Atonement (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#5. Partial Depravity.
I also rearranged the Arminian influenced points on my list above to spell CCUPP.

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you today.
 
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faroukfarouk

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I just want to say-great questions and I, too, am interested in a commentary recommendation.
Hi, @Emsmom1 I think that often the New Testament itself is a great commentary on themes in Old Testament passages; these themes can be traced via margin references, very often.
 
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GOD Shines Forth!

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Grace-only:

"He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."--Titus 3:5

Gift-gift-gift-gift!!!!

Easy believism:

"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life."--John 3:14-15

Now, how HARD is it to gaze upon a bronze serpent? You look at it and are healed. I bet pride and anger kept some of them from looking, though. Looking is easy, so is believing. They are the same thing because God has instructed US to look to/believe in Jesus Christ (His death, burial and resurrection!). He did the hard work and we benefit from His labors.
 
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steppinrazor

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Grace-only:

"He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."--Titus 3:5

Gift-gift-gift-gift!!!!

Easy believism:

"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life."--John 3:14-15

Now, how HARD is it to gaze upon a bronze serpent? You look at it and are healed. I bet pride and anger kept some of them from looking, though. Looking is easy, so is believing. They are the same thing because God has instructed US to look to/believe in Jesus Christ (His death, burial and resurrection!). He did the hard work and we benefit from His labors.

This is the only correct answer.
 
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Healing with Jesus

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I have pondered the contents of this thread for weeks now. When I first read it, I was concerned that the OP was heading down the road of loveless legalism as the way to salvation. I was moved by the posts focusing on love as a manifestation of the gift which we've been given from God. I was concerned that the people who agreed with the OP were Pharisaical, in that they saw themselves as "set apart" from the rest of us sinners.

Then I couldn't sleep. There was at least one unrestful night where I woke up suddenly, in a panic. What if they're right? What if my unconfessed sins put me on the road to damnation? So I determined to learn more, to work out my salvation with fear and trembling.

I had already learned the importance of obedience from my early days of stumbling as a new Christian. I looked back and saw my mistakes and, grateful that I seemed not to have fallen from grace, prayed that I would successfully overcome temptation.

However, something I have noticed is that there is dangerous legalism that lurks around the corner when this mindset is held. We must test our beliefs and the fruits of our beliefs. I see much condemnation of others where it is not warranted, and I believe that this is not of the Lord.

I used to go to a church that preached a gospel that sounded right, but left in its wake much destruction. Children were mocked and tossed aside as less than everyone else. These attitudes were not expressed in the open, and only came out in private conversations after I'd been in attendance for a year. There were things said which I can hardly bear to repeat. But these people read their Bibles regularly and could preach the "truth," certainly better than I can.

After finally leaving this place, I visited a new church and met a family of congregants whom I had spoken to many times. The husband said of our old church, something like, "They preach the Word of God, but they practice legalism." That made me wonder. Can true Christians speak the truth but then turn and habitually commit deeds of darkness?

Interestingly enough, this seemed to be along the lines of the point of the OP. There has been much discussion of the sins to avoid. However, I don't think we discuss nearly often enough how to love God and love our neighbors. As if we are only trying to avoid sin. Many, but not all, sins are heinous even by the world's standards. e.g. murder. But talk about denying yourself and taking up your cross, then you're a fool.
 
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I have pondered the contents of this thread for weeks now. When I first read it, I was concerned that the OP was heading down the road of loveless legalism as the way to salvation. I was moved by the posts focusing on love as a manifestation of the gift which we've been given from God. I was concerned that the people who agreed with the OP were Pharisaical, in that they saw themselves as "set apart" from the rest of us sinners.

Then I couldn't sleep. There was at least one unrestful night where I woke up suddenly, in a panic. What if they're right? What if my unconfessed sins put me on the road to damnation? So I determined to learn more, to work out my salvation with fear and trembling.

I had already learned the importance of obedience from my early days of stumbling as a new Christian. I looked back and saw my mistakes and, grateful that I seemed not to have fallen from grace, prayed that I would successfully overcome temptation.

However, something I have noticed is that there is dangerous legalism that lurks around the corner when this mindset is held. We must test our beliefs and the fruits of our beliefs. I see much condemnation of others where it is not warranted, and I believe that this is not of the Lord.

I used to go to a church that preached a gospel that sounded right, but left in its wake much destruction. Children were mocked and tossed aside as less than everyone else. These attitudes were not expressed in the open, and only came out in private conversations after I'd been in attendance for a year. There were things said which I can hardly bear to repeat. But these people read their Bibles regularly and could preach the "truth," certainly better than I can.

After finally leaving this place, I visited a new church and met a family of congregants whom I had spoken to many times. The husband said of our old church, something like, "They preach the Word of God, but they practice legalism." That made me wonder. Can true Christians speak the truth but then turn and habitually commit deeds of darkness?

Interestingly enough, this seemed to be along the lines of the point of the OP. There has been much discussion of the sins to avoid. However, I don't think we discuss nearly often enough how to love God and love our neighbors. As if we are only trying to avoid sin. Many, but not all, sins are heinous even by the world's standards. e.g. murder. But talk about denying yourself and taking up your cross, then you're a fool.

I believe there are churches that focus on Man Made Legalism and they do not even sometimes believe in calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation. I encountered one such church recently. Churches that get the truth wrong like this does not invalidate the proper healthy balance that we are to have in regards to God's grace and Sanctification as taught in the Bible. We can only be condemned by what God's Word says and not what some church says. If it is not in God's Word, then they are making stuff up. We are saved by God's grace, but we also need to live holy. For Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.
 
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Junia

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It doesn't say that. It says that the apostles have the authority to forgive sins.

so what happens then if i were to sin against a believer and that believer refused to forgive me. would God refuse to forgive me?
 
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Zechariah 4 is sufficient...

At the end of the day, all knees shall bow and all will declare GRACE, GRACE

Right, but most want the kind of grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

Titus 2:11-12 says,

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; "
 
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Beanieboy

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Right, but most want the kind of grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

Titus 2:11-12 says,

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; "

Isn't that a given??

Say you were my friend, and you were just too tired to meet me for a movie, so you told me you were running a fever. Later, you reveal that you had bedn dishonest with me. I feel distrustful of you because you lied and were ok with that, but also because ypu didn't trust me enough to say, "I'm beat. Can we reschedule?" After some discussion, I say, "I forgive you." I'm not saying, "Please freely lie to me." I'm saying, "You hurt me, but I forgive you. Don't do it again."

If you, as my friend, were thinking, "I can't lie to him again, but what else could I do? Steal? Gossip?," then I'm shutting it down, because you are focusing on technicality (you asked me not to lie again, but said nothing about stealing your phone), in order to purposely do something against me. I don't need friends like that.

it is the same concept with God. Are you a sheep who offered him food when he was hungry, or a goat who could love his neighbor as himself, but just walks away? The sheep don't say, "we fed you and clothed you. You owe me, Jesus!" They were confused, having love in their heart, acted with empathy instead of selfishness.

The goats I understand as people in the Good Samaritan story. Both a priest and Levite pass the beaten man, probably following Scripture laws of cleanliness before entering the temple. Although they kept the law, the missed the most important - of loving their neighbor. Despite obeying law, Christ was not pleased. The Samaritans, who were seen as a people below the sinners, helps the man, gives him shelter and asks for nothing in return. That is following Christ.

Does the Samaritan do it for a heavenly reward? No, he does it because he loves the neighbor as himself. One day, he will be a comfused sheep, saying, when did I see you beaten and help you? Did he earn his way into heaven? Again, no, it is given out of love to anyone. You "earn" God's love by being born, by existing.

So, the Grace/Works debate to me If seems a no brainer. You are offered salvation, love and forgiveness out of grace. If you "follow Jesus," then you will see all of the ways to actively love your neighbor (give more than asked and ask nothing in return, bless those who curse you, turn the other cheek rather than seek revenge, forgive others the way God forgives you, and extend love to all people, rather than make others eatn your love.

When a significant other says to me, "I love you," I expect to see it in action in their life, whether it is in the food made, asking me if I want something because they are going to the kitchen,

I don't fall in love as a transaction. There just that spark of something, a batural attraction (Grace)

Saying "I love you" but seeing no actions, is grace without works. But I don't love my BAE because they earned it like a good deeds punch card (works only.) I love them for the soul within. (Grace+works) The things they do for me are just the fruit of the spirit. They should come without thinking, second nature.

To say you love me, but don't act loving towards me, usually means you are either taking the easy way out, hoping to not get called on it, or lying to yourself, or me. That is the goats
 
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Isn't that a given??

Say you were my friend, and you were just too tired to meet me for a movie, so you told me you were running a fever. Later, you reveal that you had bedn dishonest with me. I feel distrustful of you because you lied and were ok with that, but also because ypu didn't trust me enough to say, "I'm beat. Can we reschedule?" After some discussion, I say, "I forgive you." I'm not saying, "Please freely lie to me." I'm saying, "You hurt me, but I forgive you. Don't do it again."

If you, as my friend, were thinking, "I can't lie to him again, but what else could I do? Steal? Gossip?," then I'm shutting it down, because you are focusing on technicality (you asked me not to lie again, but said nothing about stealing your phone), in order to purposely do something against me. I don't need friends like that.

it is the same concept with God. Are you a sheep who offered him food when he was hungry, or a goat who could love his neighbor as himself, but just walks away? The sheep don't say, "we fed you and clothed you. You owe me, Jesus!" They were confused, having love in their heart, acted with empathy instead of selfishness.

The goats I understand as people in the Good Samaritan story. Both a priest and Levite pass the beaten man, probably following Scripture laws of cleanliness before entering the temple. Although they kept the law, the missed the most important - of loving their neighbor. Despite obeying law, Christ was not pleased. The Samaritans, who were seen as a people below the sinners, helps the man, gives him shelter and asks for nothing in return. That is following Christ.

Does the Samaritan do it for a heavenly reward? No, he does it because he loves the neighbor as himself. One day, he will be a comfused sheep, saying, when did I see you beaten and help you? Did he earn his way into heaven? Again, no, it is given out of love to anyone. You "earn" God's love by being born, by existing.

So, the Grace/Works debate to me If seems a no brainer. You are offered salvation, love and forgiveness out of grace. If you "follow Jesus," then you will see all of the ways to actively love your neighbor (give more than asked and ask nothing in return, bless those who curse you, turn the other cheek rather than seek revenge, forgive others the way God forgives you, and extend love to all people, rather than make others eatn your love.

When a significant other says to me, "I love you," I expect to see it in action in their life, whether it is in the food made, asking me if I want something because they are going to the kitchen,

I don't fall in love as a transaction. There just that spark of something, a batural attraction (Grace)

Saying "I love you" but seeing no actions, is grace without works. But I don't love my BAE because they earned it like a good deeds punch card (works only.) I love them for the soul within. (Grace+works) The things they do for me are just the fruit of the spirit. They should come without thinking, second nature.

To say you love me, but don't act loving towards me, usually means you are either taking the easy way out, hoping to not get called on it, or lying to yourself, or me. That is the goats

A person can fall in and out of love. Love is something you have to continually choose to do everyday. While a true believer is changed spiritually (born again), we still have free will and we are not forced against our will to be saved after we are saved. Salvation is conditional. Salvation is conditional when you first come to the LORD in receiving Him, and it continues to be conditional after you have met the LORD. How so?

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​


We are told to:

  1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

  2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

  3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

These things would not exist in Scripture if things are as you say.
 
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Isn't that a given??

Say you were my friend, and you were just too tired to meet me for a movie, so you told me you were running a fever. Later, you reveal that you had bedn dishonest with me. I feel distrustful of you because you lied and were ok with that, but also because ypu didn't trust me enough to say, "I'm beat. Can we reschedule?" After some discussion, I say, "I forgive you." I'm not saying, "Please freely lie to me." I'm saying, "You hurt me, but I forgive you. Don't do it again."

If you, as my friend, were thinking, "I can't lie to him again, but what else could I do? Steal? Gossip?," then I'm shutting it down, because you are focusing on technicality (you asked me not to lie again, but said nothing about stealing your phone), in order to purposely do something against me. I don't need friends like that.

it is the same concept with God. Are you a sheep who offered him food when he was hungry, or a goat who could love his neighbor as himself, but just walks away? The sheep don't say, "we fed you and clothed you. You owe me, Jesus!" They were confused, having love in their heart, acted with empathy instead of selfishness.

The goats I understand as people in the Good Samaritan story. Both a priest and Levite pass the beaten man, probably following Scripture laws of cleanliness before entering the temple. Although they kept the law, the missed the most important - of loving their neighbor. Despite obeying law, Christ was not pleased. The Samaritans, who were seen as a people below the sinners, helps the man, gives him shelter and asks for nothing in return. That is following Christ.

Does the Samaritan do it for a heavenly reward? No, he does it because he loves the neighbor as himself. One day, he will be a comfused sheep, saying, when did I see you beaten and help you? Did he earn his way into heaven? Again, no, it is given out of love to anyone. You "earn" God's love by being born, by existing.

So, the Grace/Works debate to me If seems a no brainer. You are offered salvation, love and forgiveness out of grace. If you "follow Jesus," then you will see all of the ways to actively love your neighbor (give more than asked and ask nothing in return, bless those who curse you, turn the other cheek rather than seek revenge, forgive others the way God forgives you, and extend love to all people, rather than make others eatn your love.

When a significant other says to me, "I love you," I expect to see it in action in their life, whether it is in the food made, asking me if I want something because they are going to the kitchen,

I don't fall in love as a transaction. There just that spark of something, a batural attraction (Grace)

Saying "I love you" but seeing no actions, is grace without works. But I don't love my BAE because they earned it like a good deeds punch card (works only.) I love them for the soul within. (Grace+works) The things they do for me are just the fruit of the spirit. They should come without thinking, second nature.

To say you love me, but don't act loving towards me, usually means you are either taking the easy way out, hoping to not get called on it, or lying to yourself, or me. That is the goats

The Bible teaches that serious sin can separate us from GOD:

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” (Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

"But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul." (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” (Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
 
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Isn't that a given??

Say you were my friend, and you were just too tired to meet me for a movie, so you told me you were running a fever. Later, you reveal that you had bedn dishonest with me. I feel distrustful of you because you lied and were ok with that, but also because ypu didn't trust me enough to say, "I'm beat. Can we reschedule?" After some discussion, I say, "I forgive you." I'm not saying, "Please freely lie to me." I'm saying, "You hurt me, but I forgive you. Don't do it again."

If you, as my friend, were thinking, "I can't lie to him again, but what else could I do? Steal? Gossip?," then I'm shutting it down, because you are focusing on technicality (you asked me not to lie again, but said nothing about stealing your phone), in order to purposely do something against me. I don't need friends like that.

it is the same concept with God. Are you a sheep who offered him food when he was hungry, or a goat who could love his neighbor as himself, but just walks away? The sheep don't say, "we fed you and clothed you. You owe me, Jesus!" They were confused, having love in their heart, acted with empathy instead of selfishness.

The goats I understand as people in the Good Samaritan story. Both a priest and Levite pass the beaten man, probably following Scripture laws of cleanliness before entering the temple. Although they kept the law, the missed the most important - of loving their neighbor. Despite obeying law, Christ was not pleased. The Samaritans, who were seen as a people below the sinners, helps the man, gives him shelter and asks for nothing in return. That is following Christ.

Does the Samaritan do it for a heavenly reward? No, he does it because he loves the neighbor as himself. One day, he will be a comfused sheep, saying, when did I see you beaten and help you? Did he earn his way into heaven? Again, no, it is given out of love to anyone. You "earn" God's love by being born, by existing.

So, the Grace/Works debate to me If seems a no brainer. You are offered salvation, love and forgiveness out of grace. If you "follow Jesus," then you will see all of the ways to actively love your neighbor (give more than asked and ask nothing in return, bless those who curse you, turn the other cheek rather than seek revenge, forgive others the way God forgives you, and extend love to all people, rather than make others eatn your love.

When a significant other says to me, "I love you," I expect to see it in action in their life, whether it is in the food made, asking me if I want something because they are going to the kitchen,

I don't fall in love as a transaction. There just that spark of something, a batural attraction (Grace)

Saying "I love you" but seeing no actions, is grace without works. But I don't love my BAE because they earned it like a good deeds punch card (works only.) I love them for the soul within. (Grace+works) The things they do for me are just the fruit of the spirit. They should come without thinking, second nature.

To say you love me, but don't act loving towards me, usually means you are either taking the easy way out, hoping to not get called on it, or lying to yourself, or me. That is the goats

When I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

#2. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried, and had risen again three days later on your behalf, and accepting Jesus as your Savior, and seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer. This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work (because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement), then we will be glorified.
 
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Isn't that a given??

Say you were my friend, and you were just too tired to meet me for a movie, so you told me you were running a fever. Later, you reveal that you had bedn dishonest with me. I feel distrustful of you because you lied and were ok with that, but also because ypu didn't trust me enough to say, "I'm beat. Can we reschedule?" After some discussion, I say, "I forgive you." I'm not saying, "Please freely lie to me." I'm saying, "You hurt me, but I forgive you. Don't do it again."

If you, as my friend, were thinking, "I can't lie to him again, but what else could I do? Steal? Gossip?," then I'm shutting it down, because you are focusing on technicality (you asked me not to lie again, but said nothing about stealing your phone), in order to purposely do something against me. I don't need friends like that.

it is the same concept with God. Are you a sheep who offered him food when he was hungry, or a goat who could love his neighbor as himself, but just walks away? The sheep don't say, "we fed you and clothed you. You owe me, Jesus!" They were confused, having love in their heart, acted with empathy instead of selfishness.

The goats I understand as people in the Good Samaritan story. Both a priest and Levite pass the beaten man, probably following Scripture laws of cleanliness before entering the temple. Although they kept the law, the missed the most important - of loving their neighbor. Despite obeying law, Christ was not pleased. The Samaritans, who were seen as a people below the sinners, helps the man, gives him shelter and asks for nothing in return. That is following Christ.

Does the Samaritan do it for a heavenly reward? No, he does it because he loves the neighbor as himself. One day, he will be a comfused sheep, saying, when did I see you beaten and help you? Did he earn his way into heaven? Again, no, it is given out of love to anyone. You "earn" God's love by being born, by existing.

So, the Grace/Works debate to me If seems a no brainer. You are offered salvation, love and forgiveness out of grace. If you "follow Jesus," then you will see all of the ways to actively love your neighbor (give more than asked and ask nothing in return, bless those who curse you, turn the other cheek rather than seek revenge, forgive others the way God forgives you, and extend love to all people, rather than make others eatn your love.

When a significant other says to me, "I love you," I expect to see it in action in their life, whether it is in the food made, asking me if I want something because they are going to the kitchen,

I don't fall in love as a transaction. There just that spark of something, a batural attraction (Grace)

Saying "I love you" but seeing no actions, is grace without works. But I don't love my BAE because they earned it like a good deeds punch card (works only.) I love them for the soul within. (Grace+works) The things they do for me are just the fruit of the spirit. They should come without thinking, second nature.

To say you love me, but don't act loving towards me, usually means you are either taking the easy way out, hoping to not get called on it, or lying to yourself, or me. That is the goats

In addition, we are commanded to hear that the Lord our God is one God (for our life), and we are to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength (See: Mark 12:29-30). Can you honestly say you do this every day naturally or is this something you have to work at doing sometimes?

It's the 1st greatest commandment.
Is this command a salvation issue?
Read Luke 10:25-28.
 
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Beanieboy

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When I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

#2. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried, and had risen again three days later on your behalf, and accepting Jesus as your Savior, and seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer. This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work (because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement), then we will be glorified.

So, to clarify, all 4 are true, all pieces of the puzzle, so to speak, and then saying we are to focus on following Jesus, we do by a) asking forgiveness and having Christ as our Savior, and the b) starting a walk with Christ whose love transforms us.

Is that right?

Because if so, I am in total agreement, and the problem I keep seeing is a strange argument of choosing which one (1-4) is the one and only way to salvation.

Which then leads to: Can you lose your salvation? I'm a very well, seasoned Christian. I've been rolled by so many "Christian" thugs that my faith is bulletproof. I thank God for them - well, today, I do. Back then...it felt like getting spiritually beaten up. But for someone who newly answered to call to come to Christ? It's cruel. I have seen street preacher Ray Comfort speaking to a Christian woman:
"Do you believe you will go to heaven?"
"Yes. I'm a Christian. At least I hope I will. I'm a good person."
"Have you ever lied? What do you call a person who lies? Ever stolen anything? What do you call a person who steals? Ever have lust in your heart? What do you call a person who commits adultery? So by your own admission, you are a liar, thief and adulterer. Do you still believe you will go to heaven?"

And he and other street preachers plant seeds of doubt about their salvation because they haven't repented of all sin if the still commit any sin of any kind. Sure, you are forgiven, but not if you continue to "live in sin," expecting people to be without sin. If I could change myself, why would I need Jesus? Like children, our maturity doesn't come at once, but gradually over time as we shed our childish ways.

So while I believe his heart may be in the right place, I question his ideology, that not only asks us to shed our earthly ways, but to obtain an unobtainable perfection to be accepted and loved by the Father. And so it follows if one holds that belief, they see others as we are, imperfect, see the shortcomings as critical, important, while dismissing one's strengths as the expectation of "meets reqirements."

David Lynn will go even further, talking about how he left his sinful life, which involved gang violence and drug use, see the people who passed by him on Toronto streets, and referred to them as demons.
 
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So, to clarify, all 4 are true, all pieces of the puzzle, so to speak, and then saying we are to focus on following Jesus, we do by a) asking forgiveness and having Christ as our Savior, and the b) starting a walk with Christ whose love transforms us.

Is that right?

Because if so, I am in total agreement, and the problem I keep seeing is a strange argument of choosing which one (1-4) is the one and only way to salvation.

Which then leads to: Can you lose your salvation? I'm a very well, seasoned Christian. I've been rolled by so many "Christian" thugs that my faith is bulletproof. I thank God for them - well, today, I do. Back then...it felt like getting spiritually beaten up. But for someone who newly answered to call to come to Christ? It's cruel. I have seen street preacher Ray Comfort speaking to a Christian woman:
"Do you believe you will go to heaven?"
"Yes. I'm a Christian. At least I hope I will. I'm a good person."
"Have you ever lied? What do you call a person who lies? Ever stolen anything? What do you call a person who steals? Ever have lust in your heart? What do you call a person who commits adultery? So by your own admission, you are a liar, thief and adulterer. Do you still believe you will go to heaven?"

And he and other street preachers plant seeds of doubt about their salvation because they haven't repented of all sin if the still commit any sin of any kind. Sure, you are forgiven, but not if you continue to "live in sin," expecting people to be without sin. If I could change myself, why would I need Jesus? Like children, our maturity doesn't come at once, but gradually over time as we shed our childish ways.

So while I believe his heart may be in the right place, I question his ideology, that not only asks us to shed our earthly ways, but to obtain an unobtainable perfection to be accepted and loved by the Father. And so it follows if one holds that belief, they see others as we are, imperfect, see the shortcomings as critical, important, while dismissing one's strengths as the expectation of "meets reqirements."

David Lynn will go even further, talking about how he left his sinful life, which involved gang violence and drug use, see the people who passed by him on Toronto streets, and referred to them as demons.

Believers can appear to be for holy living and they can expose themselves by their own hateful and cruel words. I don't believe we can write off Soteriology and Hamartiology as taught in the Bible just because certain believers do not do the right things (despite those doctrines or truths). The Catholic church believes in the Trinity. I don't agree with Catholicism. That does not mean the Trinity is false just because Catholics believe in the Trinity.

Our faith is definitely not bulletproof.

If we are never in jeopardy when we sin, then the Bible would not teach that we can fall away from the faith; But it does teach that we can fall away.

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)​

In fact, Paul is against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief. For Paul says,

  1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).

  2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).

  3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).

  4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).

  5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).

  6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).

  7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).

  8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).

  9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).

  10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

These things would not exist in Scripture if things are as you say.
 
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JulieB67

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I believe the salvation is always there, it's the person that can get so far away. Christ didn't fail, the person did if they fall away completely. But upon true repentance the sin is forgiven and the slate is clean.

But true repentance must come for our future sins. We have no license to sin.

Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

We also know love covers a multitude of sin so we know when the books are opened, God will judge accordingly.

As far as works are concerned, we are saved by grace through faith. But if you truly have faith, the works will come.
 
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Most churches today teach false doctrines for several reasons:
ignorance, unbelief, for popularity, for financial benefit, etc.
Only a few churches are teaching correct doctrine these days.
There is more to correct doctrine than “Jesus is Lord and Savior”.
Many Spirit-filled Christians are warning, “The church is fast asleep!”

Grace-only, cheap-grace, hyper-grace, easy-believism …
are all called antinomianism! This is the notion that a one-time
justification saves … apart from sanctification. But, this is an
incomplete understanding of God’s wonderful free gift of grace!

The problem with easy-believism is that it allows
those who are living in hypocrisy, disobedience, and sin
(i.e. those who are NOT walking in obedience)
to live comfortably with a false assurance of salvation!
This leads to the tragedy described in Matthew 7:21-23 (for example).

that is spot on

“… some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches,
saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives.
… they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” (Jude 4-5, NLT)


NOTE: We are talking here about believers who have received the Holy Spirit.

There are at least 10 NT verses for each of the following truths

Believers prove they have true saving faith:
1 -- by their obedience
2 -- by practicing righteousness
3 -- by living holy lives
4 -- by having a healthy fear of God
5 -- by repenting of their occasional sins
6 –- by overcoming sin, the world, Satan, persecution
7 –- by enduring in the faith to the end of their lives

Re: #4 … If people are believing and trusting in grace-only, cheap-grace,
hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc., HOW can they be fearing God?

So, all of these verses PROVE the road to eternal life is indeed narrow,
and believers are responsible for playing their part in their salvation!

Or, shall we view these verses as merely bluffs, exaggerations, lies even?

Initially, through His grace, God gives to new believers:
Jesus’ righteousness, redemption, reconciliation, etc. and salvation.
However, this grace/salvation is NOT guaranteed to last forever!
Because ONLY their old-past-former sins have been forgiven (2 Peter 1:9).
And because NT verses warn about the possibility of losing salvation.

Some believers became “estranged from Christ”
… they had “fallen from grace” (Galatians 5:4).

Some believers are “of those who draw back to perdition” (Hebrews 10:39).

And there are many more warning verses.
 
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