Engaging Fellow Christians with Grace and Truth

John Helpher · May 25, 2020

shineyourlight said:
"The Grace and Truth Paradox."

Does it talk about the teachings of Jesus?

John Helpher · May 25, 2020

AlexDTX said:
Define what is a fake Christian.

"Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? Luke 6:46

Duke of Stratford · May 25, 2020

shineyourlight said:
I have a book by Randy Alcorn called "The Grace and Truth Paradox." It is a highly recommended read. It's a short book and easy read, but packed with truth.

I’ll have to look into that! I haven’t read a lot of theological stuff, but this sounds really interesting.

Junia · May 25, 2020

John Helpher said:
Most people who talk about their fasting would not think of it as boasting, and yet even with that explanation, it's not what Jesus said. He didn't said (or imply) that it's okay to talk about your fasting so long as you believe you're not boasting; he said don't do it. The question is, are we prepared to obey? That so many people struggle with this teaching is, in itself, a demonstration that Jesus was on to something.

This argument that it's okay to talk about fasting, praying, and charity giving so long as one does not boast about it while doing so is like an alcoholic saying, "I can stop any time I want".

maybe. i don't fast, so am probably not he best person to have an opinion on this, i guess. but how would someone who has to turn down an invite to a meal explain their absence? i mean, i dont believe in lying, so if i were married and fasting and mu husband was gonna cook a meal, i might say "Oh, i'm not doing dinner." and he would say "why not, honey?" and i'd be like "oh i feel God wanted me to fast today?" i dont know, am not even married so it probably not the way it works. i dunno

the only sacrament is do is communion. i dont keep anything else. oh and i go to church to pray for people etc

Junia · May 25, 2020

John Helpher said:
"Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? Luke 6:46

i dont have any experience of this either. to my knowledge.

shineyourlight · May 25, 2020

Duke of Stratford said:
I’ll have to look into that! I haven’t read a lot of theological stuff, but this sounds really interesting.

Honestly, it changed my outlook on a lot of things. It was required reading when I was asked to be an RA at Bible College. I kept the book afterwards because it was so good.

shineyourlight · May 25, 2020

John Helpher said:
Does it talk about the teachings of Jesus?

It is a very Christ-centered book. It talks about Jesus. It probably talks about the teachings of Jesus, too.

But, overall, it talks about how grace and truth must walk hand-in-hand while sharing the gospel. It goes about other things. It was also 2014 when I read it.

John Helpher · May 25, 2020

Even saying, "I don't fast" is letting us know something that should be secret. Whether you personally do or don't fast is none of our business; that should only be between you and God. That's what Jesus taught.

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
but how would someone who has to turn down an invite to a meal explain their absence? i mean, i dont believe in lying,

As for lying, motivation is what God looks at; why we do the things we do.
People tend to view honesty in whichever way suits them in the moment. In this case you think dishonesty is not okay because it means you've got a reason to talk about your fasting if someone asks. Instead of making up an excuse you "cannot tell a lie" and end up blabbing about your fasting.

But, in some other context, like when someone asks, "how was your day", you may feel it's acceptable to say, "okay" instead of launching into a long explanation as to how not-okay it really was.

One of the most classic hypotheticals is the ax-murderer scenario, where a stranger comes to your door and asks you to hide him from an ax-murderer who's chasing him. When the murderer comes to you door and asks if you've seen the intended victim, do you say yes or no? Most people would say "no" on the grounds that the deception in this case was for a good reason; it was right to lie in this case whereas in other circumstances it would not be right to lie. Recognizing the difference is what we call wisdom.

It may be much more difficult to keep your fasting secret from someone you live with, but when you really believe Jesus meant what he said, you'll think more deeply about why he said it, and you'll want to find ways to practice his teachings instead of looking for loopholes.

Junia · May 25, 2020

John Helpher said:
Even saying, "I don't fast" is letting us know something that should be secret. Whether you personally do or don't fast is none of our business; that should only be between you and God. That's what Jesus taught.

As for lying, motivation is what God looks at; why we do the things we do.
People tend to view honesty in whichever way suits them in the moment. In this case you think dishonesty is not okay because it means you've got a reason to talk about your fasting if someone asks. Instead of making up an excuse you "cannot tell a lie" and end up blabbing about your fasting.

But, in some other context, like when someone asks, "how was your day", you may feel it's acceptable to say, "okay" instead of launching into a long explanation as to how not-okay it really was.

One of the most classic hypotheticals is the ax-murderer scenario, where a stranger comes to your door and asks you to hide him from an ax-murderer who's chasing him. When the murderer comes to you door and asks if you've seen the intended victim, do you say yes or no? Most people would say "no" on the grounds that the deception in this case was for a good reason; it was right to lie in this case whereas in other circumstances it would not be right to lie. Recognizing the difference is what we call wisdom.

It may be much more difficult to keep your fasting secret from someone you live with, but when you really believe Jesus meant what he said, you'll think more deeply about why he said it, and you'll want to find ways to practice his teachings instead of looking for loopholes.

am not looking for a loophole, just asking a question. i am not a prideful person, i am very shy, so would not be blabbing about my achievements. i onky care what God thinks about me and i am glad His thoiughts towards me are good.

Junia · May 25, 2020

John Helpher said:
Even saying, "I don't fast" is letting us know something that should be secret. Whether you personally do or don't fast is none of our business; that should only be between you and God. That's what Jesus taught.

As for lying, motivation is what God looks at; why we do the things we do.
People tend to view honesty in whichever way suits them in the moment. In this case you think dishonesty is not okay because it means you've got a reason to talk about your fasting if someone asks. Instead of making up an excuse you "cannot tell a lie" and end up blabbing about your fasting.

But, in some other context, like when someone asks, "how was your day", you may feel it's acceptable to say, "okay" instead of launching into a long explanation as to how not-okay it really was.

One of the most classic hypotheticals is the ax-murderer scenario, where a stranger comes to your door and asks you to hide him from an ax-murderer who's chasing him. When the murderer comes to you door and asks if you've seen the intended victim, do you say yes or no? Most people would say "no" on the grounds that the deception in this case was for a good reason; it was right to lie in this case whereas in other circumstances it would not be right to lie. Recognizing the difference is what we call wisdom.

It may be much more difficult to keep your fasting secret from someone you live with, but when you really believe Jesus meant what he said, you'll think more deeply about why he said it, and you'll want to find ways to practice his teachings instead of looking for loopholes.

by the way i dont answer the door to strangers. i only open door if someone has an appointment to see me!

many people round here knock on doors to beg and i am not comfortable with suporting that kind of thing, also i live on my own!

John Helpher · May 25, 2020

shineyourlight said:
It probably talks about the teachings of Jesus, too.

But, overall, it talks about how grace and truth must walk hand-in-hand while sharing the gospel. It goes about other things. It was also 2014 when I read it.

Hi SYL. Thanks for clarifying that. Grace and truth certainly are important topics and if the book encouraged you then that's fantastic. It's just that so many people rarely talk about the teachings of Jesus. They know 7 different ways to say love in Hebrew or Greek, they know 20 different names for Jesus, they've read the bible cover to cover 10 times, they practice various rituals, they worship on the correct day, they know the correct name for God, they can talk at length about the wonderful, saving, blood-washed, grace-filled, salvation of God, but they don't talk about Jesus' expectations for his followers.

If the question is what does it mean to be luke-warm?, what is a real Christian?, or how to spot fake Christians?, it makes perfect sense to use the teachings of Jesus as the standard, which means anyone who is talking about jesus but not referring to his teachings is pretty suspicious. Maybe they just don't realize it, but when the topic is raised and people either brush it aside as though there is some other more important issue God looks at, or they argue against obedience to his teachings, then that is very telling.

shineyourlight · May 25, 2020

John Helpher said:
Hi SYL. Thanks for clarifying that. Grace and truth certainly are important topics and if the book encouraged you then that's fantastic. It's just that so many people rarely talk about the teachings of Jesus. They know 7 different ways to say love in Hebrew or Greek, they know 20 different names for Jesus, they've read the bible cover to cover 10 times, they practice various rituals, they worship on the correct day, they know the correct name for God, they can talk at length about the wonderful, saving, blood-washed, grace-filled, salvation of God, but they don't talk about Jesus' expectations for his followers.

if the question is what it means to be luke-warm, what is a real Christian, and how to spot fake Christians, it makes perfect sense to use the teachings of Jesus as the standard, which means anyone who is talking about jesus but not referring to his teachings is pretty suspicious. Maybe they just don't realize it, but when the topic is raised and people either brush it aside as though there is some other more important issue God looks at, or they argue against obedience to his teachings, then that is very telling.

I always recommend the book. I think it's a great tool.

But, you don't have to read it

Junia · May 25, 2020

John Helpher said:
Hi SYL. Thanks for clarifying that. Grace and truth certainly are important topics and if the book encouraged you then that's fantastic. It's just that so many people rarely talk about the teachings of Jesus. They know 7 different ways to say love in Hebrew or Greek, they know 20 different names for Jesus, they've read the bible cover to cover 10 times, they practice various rituals, they worship on the correct day, they know the correct name for God, they can talk at length about the wonderful, saving, blood-washed, grace-filled, salvation of God, but they don't talk about Jesus' expectations for his followers.

if the question is what it means to be luke-warm, what is a real Christian, and how to spot fake Christians, it makes perfect sense to use the teachings of Jesus as the standard, which means anyone who is talking about jesus but not referring to his teachings is pretty suspicious. Maybe they just don't realize it, but when the topic is raised and people either brush it aside as though there is some other more important issue God looks at, or they argue against obedience to his teachings, then that is very telling.

I might read that book as i am young in my journey with God. might be a good basic book for me to start out on?

Junia · May 25, 2020

shineyourlight said:
I always recommend the book. I think it's a great tool.

But, you don't have to read it

thanks. will try it.

shineyourlight · May 25, 2020

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
I might read that book as i am young in my journey with God. might be a good basic book for me to start out on?

I'm not sure if it's entirely good for beginning Christians, but you can always check it out and see if you like it!

I will always encourage growth in your walk with Christ!

Junia · May 25, 2020

John Helpher said:
Hi SYL. Thanks for clarifying that. Grace and truth certainly are important topics and if the book encouraged you then that's fantastic. It's just that so many people rarely talk about the teachings of Jesus. They know 7 different ways to say love in Hebrew or Greek, they know 20 different names for Jesus, they've read the bible cover to cover 10 times, they practice various rituals, they worship on the correct day, they know the correct name for God, they can talk at length about the wonderful, saving, blood-washed, grace-filled, salvation of God, but they don't talk about Jesus' expectations for his followers.

If the question is what does it mean to be luke-warm?, what is a real Christian?, or how to spot fake Christians?, it makes perfect sense to use the teachings of Jesus as the standard, which means anyone who is talking about jesus but not referring to his teachings is pretty suspicious. Maybe they just don't realize it, but when the topic is raised and people either brush it aside as though there is some other more important issue God looks at, or they argue against obedience to his teachings, then that is very telling.

amen, yes it is about knowing Jesus and how we work out the salvation He has freely given us. so we live our witness well. t is sucha privlege to live for Jesus. not always easy but great rewards and very excitingl

are there 20 different names for Jesus? really?

Junia · May 25, 2020

shineyourlight said:
I'm not sure if it's entirely good for beginning Christians, but you can always check it out and see if you like it! I will always encourage growth in your walk with Christ!

am not completely beginning but i have had to unlearn a lot (cult background)

CaspianSails · May 26, 2020

Duke of Stratford said:
There's this interesting dichotomy about the state of the church today. A lot of us are (rightly) concerned about the "fake Christians," the lukewarm, the "easy-believeism" folks. And it's a good thing; we need to teach truth alongside grace. That can be a really hard balance. There are movements going on that are seeking to combat the idea of complacency and prosperity gospel that are going on today, and it's a good thing that they exist.

But I think there's a problem there, too.

These responsive movements can be a little harsh. I understand the thought process: if people are being complacent and abusing grace and settling for a feel-good faith with no sense of discipline, then discipline is what they need. Discipline, rebuke, reality, tough love, red pill. But that often turns to dismissal, nastiness, and a sense of superiority masked as humility. It's very easy, in our correction of people, to view them as the enemy instead of our brothers and sisters. We end up being judgmental in a non-constructive way. "Are you one of those fake Christians?" And we guilt-trip people and make them feel bad instead of winning them back with love. Sometimes, in our efforts to balance truth and grace, we go too far and stop showing grace.

I've seen this bleed into how we deal with people who are struggling and doubting. We too easily can end up like Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar: accusing our brothers and sisters, urging them to seek correction instead of giving them a hand when they need it. Sometimes we do need to repent of sin when we're struggling. We often do. But we also need to let people know that it's okay to be honest about their feelings and struggles because God shows us time and time again that He has grace for those seasons.

All of this is meant well. And, again, I in no way mean to imply we shouldn't exercise rebuke or hard truth when it's needed. But I think we need to figure out how to engage with people and figure out what that specific person needs to hear. That's what Jesus did; there were times when He rebuked and times that He healed. What helps you grow in Christ may not be what your brother needs.

One of my favorite pastors puts it very well here and here.

Grace and truth means truth and grace. It's a tricky balance, and I don't expect people to do it perfectly because we're all learning and growing in Christ. But we should do the best we can to help our brothers and sisters. People are all projects, works in progress, but they're also people.

But to those who preach the false American gospel of success and prosperity and are leading people away from Christ and even fooling those who do believe, I think we need to stand up and speak out firm on that. It is heresy after all. When Christ rebuked the priests in His time on earth it was not soft spoken with grace was it? On minor matters of doctrinal differences this is on thing, on heresy another. I can speak softly with my brother if we disagree on the process of baptism but not on the fundamental Gospel of Christ or the substitution of prosperity for the fullness of Christ.

Duke of Stratford · May 26, 2020

CaspianSails said:
But to those who preach the false American gospel of success and prosperity and are leading people away from Christ and even fooling those who do believe, I think we need to stand up and speak out firm on that. It is heresy after all. When Christ rebuked the priests in His time on earth it was not soft spoken with grace was it? On minor matters of doctrinal differences this is on thing, on heresy another. I can speak softly with my brother if we disagree on the process of baptism but not on the fundamental Gospel of Christ or the substitution of prosperity for the fullness of Christ.

Oh, 100%. I’ve been doing research into the prosperity gospel lately. It’s sickening.

Big difference between doctrinal differences/misguided folks and people who actively preach a distortion of the gospel that can cause serious harm.

AlexDTX · May 26, 2020

John Helpher said:
"Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? Luke 6:46

Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Obedience is the fruit of our love for Jesus because we know him and know how good he is. We don't obey him to prove our love, or earn his love. It is the natural organic response to him who first loved us.

Engaging Fellow Christians with Grace and Truth

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