Engaging Fellow Christians with Grace and Truth

bèlla

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i am sorry you have had bad experiences though. this i swhy i have a high regard for psychology- i think when people are unwell emotionally in the church it helps to see their behaviour as a sickness rather than as a personal attack. atg least that is why i find helpful, as i hav e been on the other end of it too. both mentally ill and in ministry to them.

I was overextending myself and the Lord intervened. He doesn't want me taking on too much because my plate is full. I don't have the energy to assist in the manner I did in the past. I'm an encourager. I'll motivate and inspire. But the heavy lifting is best left for someone else.

~Bella
 
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Junia

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I was overextending myself and the Lord intervened. He doesn't want me taking on too much because my plate is full. I don't have the energy to assist in the manner I did in the past. I'm an encourager. I'll motivate and inspire. But the heavy lifting is best left for someone else.

~Bella

yeah i relate to that. that is why i believe churches should start embracing science and mental health services. God gave us these htings to use if we need them. but soem churches say it is worldly wisdoem etc.. so sad
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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There are other problems with this. There are major disagreements among Christians about both theology and ethics. To what extent should we regard people who disagree as "fake Christians"? To me, a large majority of postings in CF are from people who seem to be closer to the 1st Cent Pharisees than to Jesus. I'm not talking here about borderline believers or lukewarm people, but committed Christians who in my opinion are committed to things that Jesus opposed.

But Jesus also wanted his followers to be brothers and sisters. I'm not convinced that rejecting people who are clearly committed to following Christ is something Jesus would want, even if I'm convinced they are dead wrong about a lot of what they believe.

I mentioned this because "easy-believeism" is just as commonly made by people who are legalistic against fine Christian believers, as made against people who actually don't think being Christian needs to affect their lives.
There's this interesting dichotomy about the state of the church today. A lot of us are (rightly) concerned about the "fake Christians," the lukewarm, the "easy-believeism" folks. And it's a good thing; we need to teach truth alongside grace. That can be a really hard balance. There are movements going on that are seeking to combat the idea of complacency and prosperity gospel that are going on today, and it's a good thing that they exist.

But I think there's a problem there, too.

These responsive movements can be a little harsh. I understand the thought process: if people are being complacent and abusing grace and settling for a feel-good faith with no sense of discipline, then discipline is what they need. Discipline, rebuke, reality, tough love, red pill. But that often turns to dismissal, nastiness, and a sense of superiority masked as humility. It's very easy, in our correction of people, to view them as the enemy instead of our brothers and sisters. We end up being judgmental in a non-constructive way. "Are you one of those fake Christians?" And we guilt-trip people and make them feel bad instead of winning them back with love. Sometimes, in our efforts to balance truth and grace, we go too far and stop showing grace.

I've seen this bleed into how we deal with people who are struggling and doubting. We too easily can end up like Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar: accusing our brothers and sisters, urging them to seek correction instead of giving them a hand when they need it. Sometimes we do need to repent of sin when we're struggling. We often do. But we also need to let people know that it's okay to be honest about their feelings and struggles because God shows us time and time again that He has grace for those seasons.

All of this is meant well. And, again, I in no way mean to imply we shouldn't exercise rebuke or hard truth when it's needed. But I think we need to figure out how to engage with people and figure out what that specific person needs to hear. That's what Jesus did; there were times when He rebuked and times that He healed. What helps you grow in Christ may not be what your brother needs.

One of my favorite pastors puts it very well here and here.

Grace and truth means truth and grace. It's a tricky balance, and I don't expect people to do it perfectly because we're all learning and growing in Christ. But we should do the best we can to help our brothers and sisters. People are all projects, works in progress, but they're also people.
HI the measure is going to be God’s word as a standard for doctrine, ethics, and spirituality. The churches that teach the full counsel of God meaning the entire Bible will not be lacking in any area of exposure to what God’s counsel in His word put forth. Now not all will agree on the same scriptures as to what is the proper interpretaion. But coming from a Bible teaching church when I visit one of the churches that many may say are easy believe, fake Christian, or Christianity light I do see some thing huge that is missing. The word of God.

The Bible says without faith it is impossible to please God and that faith comes by hearing God’s word. So when I visit some of these churches I do so love for one another and community but the teaching is a single verse that is launched like a springboard into social issues and doing good. Or at other churches they have positive thinking messages and there is no call to righteousness or repentance from sins. The scriptures themselves warn of false teachers using flattery for a means of covetousness and that men will no longer endure sound doctrine in the last days.

The Bible tells us to study to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the word of truth. We can share our testimony and scriptures that encourage people in these churches to dig deeper into the word and the word will not come back void. The word of God is a lamp unto our paths and by loving the word and conforming ourselves to it we can speak with authority to the things clearly taught in scripture.

Many will not want to here what the word is saying and in fact guys like Rick Warren took surveys of unsaved people asking them what they would want in a church and made their church marketing program based on that study. A guy named Drucker not a Christian was greatly influential in founding the purpose driven church. So is this move of the Spirit or not? This is controversial but what can be wrong with say taking the whole Bible believing it and applying it to our lives? The accusation against these churches is that to some degree or another take out most of the Bible and stick to their safe passages.
 
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John Helpher

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People seem to focus too much on questioning whether or not someone is a real Christian as opposed to thinking of how we can build one another up.

The best way to determine who is a real Christian is to use the teachings of Jesus as the standard. Probably a better way to describe it would be to refer to them as accurate Christians or consistent-with-His-teachings Christians (though personally I do not think we should need these modifiers if we're sincere as it is inherent in the name itself that a Christian is one who obeys Christ).

Jesus is referred to as the cornerstone. This isn't just a fancy title. A cornerstone is a tool for measuring right angles and aligning walls properly. It is the most fundamental tool used to properly measure a solid foundation.

If you want to know if someone is behaving as a Christian, use the tool God gave us; the teachings of Jesus. For example, lets say someone talks about how he's fasting. Jesus said we should keep such things secret, but maybe that Christian didn't know so it's fine to offer some grace.

However, if that person argues against the teaching, argues that it really is okay to talk about his fasting, that Jesus didn't really mean we should keep it secret, then at that point the person has become luke-warm.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Grace and truth means truth and grace. It's a tricky balance, and I don't expect people to do it perfectly because we're all learning and growing in Christ. But we should do the best we can to help our brothers and sisters. People are all projects, works in progress, but they're also people.


I have to say I really like these kind of threads, which I term "philosophy of Ministry" ones. I may have to do my own one on this subject since my position can be very involved.

1) In general I agree with main stream view about being "slow to speak" etc. (all that good book of Proverbs advice).



2) I however had some flashes of insight a few decades ago reflecting on Jesus. Jesus in his dealing with people could really vary a lot between being gentle and hands off, to being in your face against certain people, especially the Pharisees and his other detractors.

It kind of dawned on me, reflecting back that Jesus approach to people reminded me of the kind of approach that I used, but especially when I studied martial arts decades ago. It was the unwritten rule of the dojo to meet people with the same level of energy that they met you. Lots of people didn't like sparing and wanted it to be as low threatening as possible, others wanted their metal tested to the utmost and pretty much put you on the defensive pretty much forcing you to hit them with everything you had, and then there are the people in the middle like myself that wanted a little challenge but nothing seriously threatening.


Anyway in looking at the Gospels I think Jesus operated this way. He was basically meek and easy going with most folks (to start with at least), but to folks who were "in his face", or brow beat others in front of him he began to reflect back to them a more confrontational approach and demeanor. And well, I think that sort of thing is sometimes needed because I've seen folks who often believe they have special rights, privileges etc. they treat people much rougher than they want to be treated because they believe they have some kind of "anointing", or ministry position that warrants it etc.
 
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Redwingfan9

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There's this interesting dichotomy about the state of the church today. A lot of us are (rightly) concerned about the "fake Christians," the lukewarm, the "easy-believeism" folks. And it's a good thing; we need to teach truth alongside grace. That can be a really hard balance. There are movements going on that are seeking to combat the idea of complacency and prosperity gospel that are going on today, and it's a good thing that they exist.

But I think there's a problem there, too.

These responsive movements can be a little harsh. I understand the thought process: if people are being complacent and abusing grace and settling for a feel-good faith with no sense of discipline, then discipline is what they need. Discipline, rebuke, reality, tough love, red pill. But that often turns to dismissal, nastiness, and a sense of superiority masked as humility. It's very easy, in our correction of people, to view them as the enemy instead of our brothers and sisters. We end up being judgmental in a non-constructive way. "Are you one of those fake Christians?" And we guilt-trip people and make them feel bad instead of winning them back with love. Sometimes, in our efforts to balance truth and grace, we go too far and stop showing grace.

I've seen this bleed into how we deal with people who are struggling and doubting. We too easily can end up like Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar: accusing our brothers and sisters, urging them to seek correction instead of giving them a hand when they need it. Sometimes we do need to repent of sin when we're struggling. We often do. But we also need to let people know that it's okay to be honest about their feelings and struggles because God shows us time and time again that He has grace for those seasons.

All of this is meant well. And, again, I in no way mean to imply we shouldn't exercise rebuke or hard truth when it's needed. But I think we need to figure out how to engage with people and figure out what that specific person needs to hear. That's what Jesus did; there were times when He rebuked and times that He healed. What helps you grow in Christ may not be what your brother needs.

One of my favorite pastors puts it very well here and here.

Grace and truth means truth and grace. It's a tricky balance, and I don't expect people to do it perfectly because we're all learning and growing in Christ. But we should do the best we can to help our brothers and sisters. People are all projects, works in progress, but they're also people.
No where is this problem seen more than in the Dutch reformed churches of west Michigan. The harshness that they treat outsiders with is nothing short of outrageous. Everyone from the outside is seen as a suspected easy believer who has to be put in their place. Rather than showing grace to them when there is sin, or more usually mere disagreement over cultural norms, they react with harshness bordering on the vindictive.

There has to be a middle ground. The Christian faith is not an easy one so anyone who is not searching their hearts for hidden sin and believes praying a prayer or signing a card saves them needs to be shown in scripture that is error. Sanctification is a gradual process though, a work of God that is unique to each believer. We can't expect to snap our fingers and see all the saints around us perfect. It doesn't work that way.
 
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Duke of Stratford

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I have to say I really like these kind of threads, which I term "philosophy of Ministry" ones. I may have to do my own one on this subject since my position can be very involved.

1) In general I agree with main stream view about being "slow to speak" etc. (all that good book of Proverbs advice).



2) I however had some flashes of insight a few decades ago reflecting on Jesus. Jesus in his dealing with people could really vary a lot between being gentle and hands off, to being in your face against certain people, especially the Pharisees and his other detractors.

It kind of dawned on me, reflecting back that Jesus approach to people reminded me of the kind of approach that I used, but especially when I studied martial arts decades ago. It was the unwritten rule of the dojo to meet people with the same level of energy that they met you. Lots of people didn't like sparing and wanted it to be as low threatening as possible, others wanted their metal tested to the utmost and pretty much put you on the defensive pretty much forcing you to hit them with everything you had, and then there are the people in the middle like myself that wanted a little challenge but nothing seriously threatening.


Anyway in looking at the Gospels I think Jesus operated this way. He was basically meek and easy going with most folks (to start with at least), but to folks who were "in his face", or brow beat others in front of him he began to reflect back to them a more confrontational approach and demeanor. And well, I think that sort of thing is sometimes needed because I've seen folks who often believe they have special rights, privileges etc. they treat people much rougher than they want to be treated because they believe they have some kind of "anointing", or ministry position that warrants it etc.
You hit the nail on the head with this! There is a time and a place for both harshness and gentility; that’s one of my favorite things about Jesus’ ministry. And it’s a wonderful depiction of what love actually looks like: not just having grace and rebuke, but knowing precisely how and when to apply each.
 
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Duke of Stratford

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Define what is a fake Christian.
That’s kind of my point. People have different interpretations of what “real Christianity” looks like, and that can sometimes lead to harmful judgements. Some folks may see someone who’s less disciplined and deem them a “fake Christian,” but that person may just be in an early stage of faith.

There are certainly times where we can recognize people who claim to believe but truly aren’t walking in faith (a lot of the prosperity gospel folk come to mind for me, at least). But we should be very careful when we judge people in those terms because we may not know enough about them to make an accurate judgement, which can lead to unfair condemnation. God sets the parameters and knows others’ hearts, not us.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I wonder how revealing it would be to ask ourselves something like, "What's the point of being a Christian?"

I don't mean in a cynical way, but simply an introspective way. What, exactly, is our religion. What is it that we're doing here. What's the point of this all.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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AlexDTX

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That’s kind of my point. People have different interpretations of what “real Christianity” looks like, and that can sometimes lead to harmful judgements. Some folks may see someone who’s less disciplined and deem them a “fake Christian,” but that person may just be in an early stage of faith.

There are certainly times where we can recognize people who claim to believe but truly aren’t walking in faith (a lot of the prosperity gospel folk come to mind for me, at least). But we should be very careful when we judge people in those terms because we may not know enough about them to make an accurate judgement, which can lead to unfair condemnation. God sets the parameters and knows others’ hearts, not us.
It is not difficult to define.
Anyone has not surrendered his life to Christ, acknowledging their sins need salvation, and believe in their hearts that God became the man Christ Jesus to live the perfect life we could not, and placed his wrath on himself to punish our sins rising again on the 3rd day is a real Christian. For that person has died with Christ by faith, and received the Holy Spirit into his heart giving him the new birth. If a person has not been born from above, he is a fake Christian.
 
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Swan7

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There's this interesting dichotomy about the state of the church today. A lot of us are (rightly) concerned about the "fake Christians," the lukewarm, the "easy-believeism" folks. And it's a good thing; we need to teach truth alongside grace. That can be a really hard balance. There are movements going on that are seeking to combat the idea of complacency and prosperity gospel that are going on today, and it's a good thing that they exist.

But I think there's a problem there, too.

These responsive movements can be a little harsh. I understand the thought process: if people are being complacent and abusing grace and settling for a feel-good faith with no sense of discipline, then discipline is what they need. Discipline, rebuke, reality, tough love, red pill. But that often turns to dismissal, nastiness, and a sense of superiority masked as humility. It's very easy, in our correction of people, to view them as the enemy instead of our brothers and sisters. We end up being judgmental in a non-constructive way. "Are you one of those fake Christians?" And we guilt-trip people and make them feel bad instead of winning them back with love. Sometimes, in our efforts to balance truth and grace, we go too far and stop showing grace.

I've seen this bleed into how we deal with people who are struggling and doubting. We too easily can end up like Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar: accusing our brothers and sisters, urging them to seek correction instead of giving them a hand when they need it. Sometimes we do need to repent of sin when we're struggling. We often do. But we also need to let people know that it's okay to be honest about their feelings and struggles because God shows us time and time again that He has grace for those seasons.

All of this is meant well. And, again, I in no way mean to imply we shouldn't exercise rebuke or hard truth when it's needed. But I think we need to figure out how to engage with people and figure out what that specific person needs to hear. That's what Jesus did; there were times when He rebuked and times that He healed. What helps you grow in Christ may not be what your brother needs.

One of my favorite pastors puts it very well here and here.

Grace and truth means truth and grace. It's a tricky balance, and I don't expect people to do it perfectly because we're all learning and growing in Christ. But we should do the best we can to help our brothers and sisters. People are all projects, works in progress, but they're also people.

I absolutely feel this way too, and see this issue often online. I see a lot of preaching but not nearly enough teaching or prophesying to one another. Sometimes I’ve had to PM some new Christians because they were getting eaten alive. It’s so important that we, as mature Christians, know when we are talking to one who is on the Milk and one who should be on the meat, Paul talks about this.

Anyway, I most certainly agree. :yellowheart:
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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It is not difficult to define.
Anyone has not surrendered his life to Christ, acknowledging their sins need salvation, and believe in their hearts that God became the man Christ Jesus to live the perfect life we could not, and placed his wrath on himself to punish our sins rising again on the 3rd day is a real Christian. For that person has died with Christ by faith, and received the Holy Spirit into his heart giving him the new birth. If a person has not been born from above, he is a fake Christian.

Agreed. Salvation is by design so simple a child could do it (Luke 18:16-17). Spiritual gifts are necessary for growing the body, but to receive salvation, everyone is humbled by the "weakness" and "foolishness" of it (1 Corinthians 11:22-31). It is by faith only, towards which a work can not add or threaten (Romans 4:5-8, Romans 10:2-11). So the difference between a real Christian and a fake Christian is not one who sins and one who does not, but one who actually believes Christ is sufficient, and one who does not.

But this is where the problem in the body begins of throwing out the rest of the Bible and expecting you to stand by and passively watch, even though rebuke for sin abounds in the NT, is commanded in the NT (2 Timothy 4:2-3), and is warned that it will come from God, sometimes in the form of severe discipline ("scourging") for anyone who is a child of God (Hebrews 12:5-11). They love to hide behind grace as a means of legitimating their rejection of correction, thereby preventing growth and mocking God. You should just effeminately stand by and treat all sin like a one year old spilt their milk, pat their heads and tell them how cute they are act like there is no problem.

This also produces a theological problem with a practical relative. Theologically, it births the false dichotomy of my sin condemns me to hell or it invites no punishment at all; punishment always means hell, grace always means God ignores your sin and couldn't care less. Practically, this results in being unable to receive correction without pretending the person is condemning you, even if they clearly say they are not condemning you but rebuking you, and discourages many from giving correction because they think if a person's not going to hell they should just let sin abound.

It seems so simple a concept that we would think this foolishness in any other case. It's not logical to infer that because dad won't disown you and claim you're not his genetic descendent when you disobey him, that therefore he won't yell at you, spank you, withdraw possessions from you or get your mother to do this. And if mother tells you father is displeased or will discipline you you respond "how dare you say I don't have my dad's DNA! Liar, hypocrite!" It's absurd.

So salvation is by faith, but growth is by a healthy balance of nutrients (that include more than just the sweet and desirables) called doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16, 4:2-3). It seems in the family of God, the Bible calls us to more than being a born-again pampered toddler our whole lives.
 
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Junia

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The best way to determine who is a real Christian is to use the teachings of Jesus as the standard. Probably a better way to describe it would be to refer to them as accurate Christians or consistent-with-His-teachings Christians (though personally I do not think we should need these modifiers if we're sincere as it is inherent in the name itself that a Christian is one who obeys Christ).

Jesus is referred to as the cornerstone. This isn't just a fancy title. A cornerstone is a tool for measuring right angles and aligning walls properly. It is the most fundamental tool used to properly measure a solid foundation.

If you want to know if someone is behaving as a Christian, use the tool God gave us; the teachings of Jesus. For example, lets say someone talks about how he's fasting. Jesus said we should keep such things secret, but maybe that Christian didn't know so it's fine to offer some grace.

However, if that person argues against the teaching, argues that it really is okay to talk about his fasting, that Jesus didn't really mean we should keep it secret, then at that point the person has become luke-warm.

Thank you. this is really informative. love that bit about the cornerstone.

I think the fasting thing means not to boast about fasting. but if someone has to say to their spouse "don;t cook dinner for me because am fasting" and they just being helpful, i dont see that as wrong. it is all about heart intentions. we are judged on those at the end of the day.
 
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Junia

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I absolutely feel this way too, and see this issue often online. I see a lot of preaching but not nearly enough teaching or prophesying to one another. Sometimes I’ve had to PM some new Christians because they were getting eaten alive. It’s so important that we, as mature Christians, know when we are talking to one who is on the Milk and one who should be on the meat, Paul talks about this.

Anyway, I most certainly agree. :yellowheart:

i am not a mature christian yet. saved in 2006 and still bumbling my way along. i thank Jesus that He is so patient with me.... what i need to work is extending that patience to others.
 
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Duke of Stratford

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It is not difficult to define.
Anyone has not surrendered his life to Christ, acknowledging their sins need salvation, and believe in their hearts that God became the man Christ Jesus to live the perfect life we could not, and placed his wrath on himself to punish our sins rising again on the 3rd day is a real Christian. For that person has died with Christ by faith, and received the Holy Spirit into his heart giving him the new birth. If a person has not been born from above, he is a fake Christian.

Agreed. Salvation is by design so simple a child could do it (Luke 18:16-17). Spiritual gifts are necessary for growing the body, but to receive salvation, everyone is humbled by the "weakness" and "foolishness" of it (1 Corinthians 11:22-31). It is by faith only, towards which a work can not add or threaten (Romans 4:5-8, Romans 10:2-11). So the difference between a real Christian and a fake Christian is not one who sins and one who does not, but one who actually believes Christ is sufficient, and one who does not.

But this is where the problem in the body begins of throwing out the rest of the Bible and expecting you to stand by and passively watch, even though rebuke for sin abounds in the NT, is commanded in the NT (2 Timothy 4:2-3), and is warned that it will come from God, sometimes in the form of severe discipline ("scourging") for anyone who is a child of God (Hebrews 12:5-11). They love to hide behind grace as a means of legitimating their rejection of correction, thereby preventing growth and mocking God. You should just effeminately stand by and treat all sin like a one year old spilt their milk, pat their heads and tell them how cute they are act like there is no problem.

This also produces a theological problem with a practical relative. Theologically, it births the false dichotomy of my sin condemns me to hell or it invites no punishment at all; punishment always means hell, grace always means God ignores your sin and couldn't care less. Practically, this results in being unable to receive correction without pretending the person is condemning you, even if they clearly say they are not condemning you but rebuking you, and discourages many from giving correction because they think if a person's not going to hell they should just let sin abound.

It seems so simple a concept that we would think this foolishness in any other case. It's not logical to infer that because dad won't disown you and claim you're not his genetic descendent when you disobey him, that therefore he won't yell at you, spank you, withdraw possessions from you or get your mother to do this. And if mother tells you father is displeased or will discipline you you respond "how dare you say I don't have my dad's DNA! Liar, hypocrite!" It's absurd.

So salvation is by faith, but growth is by a healthy balance of nutrients (that include more than just the sweet and desirables) called doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16, 4:2-3). It seems in the family of God, the Bible calls us to more than being a born-again pampered toddler our whole lives.

Absolutely agree with this. The issue I’m trying to address is when people mean to have that kind of righteous rebuke and discipline (correction itself is a form of grace) but end up being prideful, judgmental, and generally jerks about it. The sort who expect meat from people who need milk, or people who insist specific behaviors or performances are indicative of being born again based on their own standards, not necessarily biblical ones. Rebuke and calling out are good—my point is that we need to be discerning about when and how we do so because we sometimes go too far in the other direction.
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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Absolutely agree with this. The issue I’m trying to address is when people mean to have that kind of righteous rebuke and discipline (correction itself is a form of grace) but end up being prideful, judgmental, and generally jerks about it. The sort who expect meat from people who need milk, or people who insist specific behaviors or performances are indicative of being born again based on their own standards, not necessarily biblical ones. Rebuke and calling out are good—my point is that we need to be discerning about when and how we do so because we sometimes go too far in the other direction.

Certainly. Interestingly, I find that the way God keeps everyone humble is that their greatest weakness is interwoven with their greatest strength. People with a gift of boldness and discernment are often too harsh; people with a gift of mercy are often too gentle. That's why we're a body and not and eye or an ear.
 
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John Helpher

John 3:16
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I think the fasting thing means not to boast about fasting.

Most people who talk about their fasting would not think of it as boasting, and yet even with that explanation, it's not what Jesus said. He didn't said (or imply) that it's okay to talk about your fasting so long as you believe you're not boasting; he said don't do it. The question is, are we prepared to obey? That so many people struggle with this teaching is, in itself, a demonstration that Jesus was on to something.

This argument that it's okay to talk about fasting, praying, and charity giving so long as one does not boast about it while doing so is like an alcoholic saying, "I can stop any time I want".
 
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