Purveyor of Confusion

miknik5 · May 23, 2020

cvanwey said:
So if these folks had a change of heart later, and decided they later wanted to fall in line to faith/other, they're still hosed then, right? God will not forgive such prior actions -- (i.e.) to speak blasphemy.

Was Paul....hosed, (as you put it)?

miknik5 · May 23, 2020

cvanwey said:
Actually ma'am, I'm the one issuing honesty here. I have admitted, from the get-go, that I am no longer a follower of Jesus. And by this, I mean I do not think He exists postmortem. Maybe He existed as a preacher, when He was alive on earth, but that's where it ends (for me)... I have also admitted that I am now a casual observer. I have admitted that when I finally decided to read the Bible, (when I was still a believer), I came away confused; especially in regards to salvation. I later had no choice but to reject the assertions/claims, for various reasons I will not get into here, as they are off topic...

In all honesty, I have found that it would not matter how intelligent you are, how well versed you are, or how many times you read the same Bible from cover to cover.... I see direct conflict, when the Bible asserts 'the path' to salvation. I'm sorry you find me disingenuous. I'm sorry if you feel I'm playing a game here. I'm sorry you feel any adverse way towards me at all.

On the other hand, please understand what this forum arena is directly FOR.... It is for people, like me, to challenge your faith I'm sorry this annoys you.

And further, you keep accusing me of things. And yet, you have been doing it from the jump. You hit respond to an entire multi-subject response, and issue a one sentence answer. You do not address all content within the response, just 'snippets'. It doesn't really bother me. However, please remember, 'what is good for the goose, is good for the gander.' Whatever a gander is?

To recap.... I'm here to demonstrate, that the path to salvation is not clear. All you fine educated intelligent folks demonstrate this, again and again.

Here, there is nothing for you to 'win.' You can't. Many can successfully make a case for their path to salvation. But in doing so, they have to ignore other 'provable' paths, which oppose yours...

You could NEVER challenge my faith...what you did, was truncate my response to fit a rant of your own...that is dishonest...and that never goes well in any dispute.
Further, you don´t even approve of my short responses, yet you cut them down and offer a portion of what you have already said wasn´t enough to begin with?

Thankfully, this is a different arena...I simply stopped responding to you, which is what I told you I would do...

However, I am back in this thread, reading, my intent was to figure out the discussion between you and Tom 1, and I came across these posts which you sent to me.

Now, I don´t care if you misrepresent me...but I do care, that in this arena, it becomes concrete words...and I need to make sure that I at least let those reading your opinions and ideas and imaginings of me...know exactly that is what they are...opinions, ideas and imaginings...and they do not hold truth about me....they are simply your words and they stay with you as your words, your ideas, your thoughts, your imaginings, your suggestions, your opinions...

miknik5 · May 23, 2020

cvanwey said:
You have again misinterpreted my response.

Let me clarify for you. Responding to [anyone] to read a Chapter, and leaving it at that, can result in differing conclusions; even if you were to provide this Chapter to Christians exclusively.

Hence, you might want to just say what you want to say. I would assume we have all read our Bibles

Why sir? You already seem to look down your nose on short responses...so, why would it be difficult for you to read a WHOLE CHAPTER?

We had this discussion regarding those who know THE WORD and understand in full context compared to those who only offer snippets of THE WORD

miknik5 · May 23, 2020

cvanwey said:
As I told the other poster, John 5 explains John 5. Matthew 25:31-46 is it's own case.

Says who sir? The one who has read in context or the one who offers snippets

miknik5 · May 23, 2020

cvanwey said:
Prove that He has chosen you How do you know? Actions speak louder than words. Telling me He chose you means little. What have you done to show your faith to God? And how do you know God deems your faith worthy? Again, He set a specific criteria. --- To give up all possessions. Maybe the fact that you have not done this, means your faith as not as strong as you might think or want it to be...?

You don't think that most/every Christian thinks they are chosen? Many of which, adhere to differing methods for salvation?

And until you can do this; (i.e.) prove He has chosen [you], please explain why Luke 14:33 does not apply to you, when it certainly applies to others?

Luke 14, in full context was explained to you now maybe 4 times...but you did not want to go back and read the full chapter.

I told you sir, those who have read and understand in context will clearly understand that when one offers snippets and gives his opinion on just that snippet, he clearly makes it obvious that he has not done his work of reading in context...

Which is WHY I keep stressing to you to read the full chapter...

miknik5 · May 23, 2020

cvanwey said:
Now it sounds to me like you are trying state that 'blasphemy', in these contexts, are instead related to perpetual 'evil'; where evil represents eternal separation from God? I'm trying to seek clarity, as to [your] meaning?

Sounds to be that 'blasphemy', in this instance, is just another way of saying, "no, I'm not ever going to follow you, I don't need anything from you?"

If this is the case, we already have an entire category for this.... Trying to combine unbelief/rebellion/denial/rejection (with) 'blasphemy', seems to be a bit of a stretch...

Test question (multiple choice):

"In the interests of informed debate, members will not speak in a disrespectful way of the Christian God, the Trinity, or the Holy Scriptures (The Bible). A similar respect is expected towards the faith and sacred texts of other religions. Expressing disbelief in God is acceptable, referring to Him as a 'fairy tale' or a 'narcissistic god', or making a comment such as 'god throws a childish tantrum', is not acceptable."

A: Truck
B: Chainsaw
C: Blasphemy

I have, and the conclusion drawn, is that God provides verses, which states what is unforgivable. He offers little explanation and/or clarification. In spite of the fact He has no problem doing so, in detail, in other parts of the Bible.

For all we know, the verses mean what they say.

For judgment I have come (John 9) should be sufficient....

miknik5 · May 23, 2020

Tom 1 said:
The purpose of working through the text step by step is to arrive at a reasoned conclusion. Simply stating what you happen to think, without any reasoning, is not the same thing. This isn’t unique to the bible or to anything else, to arrive at an understanding a process of reading, understanding, reasoning etc is necessary. That is the purpose of asking questions of the text, as opposed to picking a word and simply saying what you think that word means, based on some random association.

Just some clarification...should the person who is looking to resolve his/her confusion focus on just the snippets, or should he/she read in full, the context to where that snippet of a verse lies?

miknik5 · May 23, 2020

If one thought they were sick, they would go to a doctor...
But people only see their illness if it is outward...

So they think they are well-healed
But they don´t even realize how sick they are...

John 9

dcalling · May 23, 2020

cvanwey said:
I gave you the information in my response:

"Please re-look at post #620"

If you let me know how to search for #620 I will take a look. If your answer is to page through then you have to post again

cvanwey said:
Your analogy fails though... If you ask for a cookie, and your mother states no, you can still ask your parent WHY? If your parent never responds with any reason, then maybe your parent is not doing their job?

Maybe then you will never 'understand'? If you claim that God is 'good', God is 'love', and God wants a relationship with His created Humans, (which I'm going to assuming that you do); then you have to ask yourself......

- Does God ever answer petitionary prayers? I would assume your answer is YES.

Depend on if the prayer is approved by God or not.

cvanwey said:
- Does God ever reveal His presence to humans? YES, if the Bible is true.

Only to some (i.e. Moses)

cvanwey said:
- Does God answer prayer requests? YES, if the Bible and the many anecdotal testimonials are true.

See above.

cvanwey said:
- Do humans pray for God's guidance and/or wisdom, and do many claim He responds? YES

You are not asking for something which may spoil your appetite before dinner, or rot your teeth, or aid to diabetes, or aid in weigh gain - (i.e. cookies). You are asking your Creator to clarify a verse He asserted. If He does not want you to know what it means, and further, does not care to entertain this answer to virtually anyone whom asks, then we have to wonder.... WHY?

What prayers DO God entertain? Again, I will tell you, God issues verse(s). These verses lead many to feel God will leave some unforgiven eternally, no-matter-what. [You] state you know what this actually means. Okay, fine. But so do I. We disagree. Seems REASONABLE for God to answer the call to settle this conflict, when asked upon??????????????????

He answers some directly, some in due time.

cvanwey said:
I see you moved the goalpost now 'Material' involves humans as well.

I just used another analogy, not goal post.

cvanwey said:
Again, a parent/child relationship can go awry, and then later be mended. A marriage can go south, and later be mended. A Christian can leave, and later come back.

I'll give you another example....

A 'ride-or-die' professed Christian decides to major in biology. He takes evolutionary biology courses, sees that these findings conflict with Genesis. Since belief cannot be controlled, this student now has no choice but to conclude that his prior believed upon story in Genesis was a 'lie'. To this student, (s)he now has no choice but to no longer trust his believed upon agent. He then gets angry. He curses this God he believes in. He 'speaks against' this believed upon God. He may even later fall away, again, because belief is not really a choice...

BUT, later, after he continues in his career, he comes across the teachings of a 'Roman Catholic'. His name is Kennith R. Miller. He reads the book 'Darwin's God'. After reading this book, he ultimately asks God for forgiveness.

Conclusion: a True-blue Christian can FALL AWAY from God. Why? Many are evangelicals. They believe the Bible is literal. And yet, many are forced to re-evaluate after higher education. And since you cannot control your beliefs, some fall away, beyond their control. Some of these folks may later return, if they should later change their course.. (i.e.) become a more 'liberal' Christian. And these folks could also have reason to fall away. Again, if the evidence presents, which forces their hand to no longer believe, where they believed prior, God may smite these individuals.

So I ask you, yet again, are you SURE a true-blue Christian can never change their mind? Because again, we have millions of YEC's. Most of whom probably are not scientists.

Your example is the same, which I answered, you simply changed from "parent who lost child" to "child who learned something new".

My answer is again, a true Christian won't curse God, no matter what. I heard multiple instances of former atheists, who when come to this country to complete higher education, encounters older Christians who might only have a high school degree, argue with them, present scientific evidences, to which of course the Christian can't answer, and their reply is usually the will pray for it. A real Christian, when presented with evidence, they will think how it is used, study it, instead of simply curse God.

Faith come in many flavors, even for scientists. When Einstien and Borh debate about quantum coupling, Einstien win the first round, but Bohr didn't just curse himself. He prepared for the second day and win over many other scientists. Even after Bohr is proven right by some scientists from Bell labs, it was not the end of the story as just recently other scientists raised doubt about the validity of the test.

So some one might thought they believe, but have not touched by Holy spirit, might fall off, but one who got touched will never do.

YEC does not even apply here. It is more important to believe in the message of God instead of one or two interpretation of how God works.

Tom 1 · May 24, 2020

miknik5 said:
Just some clarification...should the person who is looking to resolve his/her confusion focus on just the snippets, or should he/she read in full, the context to where that snippet of a verse lies?

It’s like concentric circles, the way I see it. To understand any topic it’s necessary to see how one idea fits with and informs the rest of the text. The dividing of the text into verses is useful for reference, but sometimes people get stuck in thinking they can understand the bible just by stringing together a few isolated bits of text, selected by verse number, and that seeing the broader picture is irrelevant.

cvanwey · May 24, 2020

agapelove said:
I never argued that hell is not eternal. I am arguing that hell (once thrown into the Lake of Fire) is not a separate realm from heaven, otherwise God cannot be "all in all".

In post #675:

(Me) "Are you allowed to answer the simple question, for which I asked prior? Ultimately, do all humans go to heaven, yes or no?"

(You) "If I said yes, would you be opposed? The idea you are proposing is called apocatastasis and no I am not sure it is allowed in the apologetics section."

Thus, it would appear, you are stating that eventually, all humans go to heaven, maybe even after some 'purification' process?

I'm not asking where hell resides, or if God has control of hell.

agapelove said:
I understand your point and I concur. Yes there is confusion, we will never resolve it as long as we live. We can only attempt to but even our best efforts will only allow us to see in part (1 Corinthians 13:12). This is not God playing hide-and-seek, it is His command for us to live by faith (2 Corinthians 5:7, Hebrews 11:1). You will not find evidence or perfect answers in faith, only hope and trust.

And yet, many turn away from the assertion of God due to ultimate apparent 'hide-and-seek.' If faith is required, and many unbelievers don't believe, beca

Take any answers from me or others with a grain of salt. The Bible is designed to contain an infinite amount of answers, so that no man can arrogantly say they have all the answers. At some point, we all choose which scriptures we fully embrace, and which scriptures need re-interpreting. This is what I mean by choosing what you believe. God instructs us to have faith, which is the openness to seek and follow Him.

God holds nothing against you (2 Corinthians 5:19), but rather whoever does not believe condemns them self already (John 3:18).

God is love (1 John 4:7, 4:8, 4:16) and God is Spirit (and John 4:24). The fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control according to Galatians 5:22-23. If you believe these things then in all conscience you are not really a nonbeliever. No doubt there are those who condemn themselves by refusing to believe love, choose joy, practice kindness, exercise hope, etc etc etc. So again I ask, why is the existence of God so rejectable for you?

Judgment is about what rewards we will receive in the next life.

This is how God tells us we can store up treasures in Heaven:

Giving to the needy (Luke 12:32-33)
Give to those who cannot repay (Luke 14:13-14)
Endure persecution (Matthew 5:11-12)
Loving your enemies (Matthew 5:43-48)
Praying (Matthew 6:5-6)
Serving God and others (Matthew 10:41-42)

My stance is that God will accomplish his eternal purpose in the end.

There are many things people choose to believe. Aliens, parallel universes, ghosts, free will, luck, karma, astrology, morality, consciousness. There is as much proof as there is none for these things. You decide what is worth believing, and then you go from there. God included! Faith is how you choose to see the world, which affects how you live in the world and this is a continual process. When you say "I do" in a marriage you can't be certain that it will not end badly for you, but you choose to work hard, be faithful and love your partner until the very end.

I'm sorry you feel that you wasted your time for 3 decades. Are you certain that God didn't answer your prayers, or is it simply because you didn't get the response you wanted?[/QUOTE]

cvanwey · May 24, 2020

agapelove said:
I never argued that hell is not eternal. I am arguing that hell (once thrown into the Lake of Fire) is not a separate realm from heaven, otherwise God cannot be "all in all".

In post #675, you seemed to elude to the notion that, eventually, all humans go to heaven. If this IS true, then hell is not eternal, for the human(s) whom inhabits within this arena.

I'm not concerned with where hell resides, or if God has control of this realm.

agapelove said:
I understand your point and I concur. Yes there is confusion, we will never resolve it as long as we live.

Thank you! This is the entire point of this thread.

agapelove said:
We can only attempt to but even our best efforts will only allow us to see in part (1 Corinthians 13:12). This is not God playing hide-and-seek, it is His command for us to live by faith (2 Corinthians 5:7, Hebrews 11:1). You will not find evidence or perfect answers in faith, only hope and trust.

I find conflict here. You state He is not playing hide-and-seek. And yet, you state what you state there-after; that God requires faith anyways? I prayed for over 30 years for Him to reveal His presence. I ultimately turned away from the assertion of God. And one of the reasons was that He never presented His presence to me.

This seems to contradict Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23

Trust is earned. Perceived perpetual failure to acknowledge one's genuine request(s) does not earn 'trust.'

And to state I have faith anyways, would only be a lie. Seems like a rather odd criteria from such a claimed entity, in light of the fact many claim that God DOES contact them on a regular basis?

agapelove said:
Take any answers from me or others with a grain of salt. The Bible is designed to contain an infinite amount of answers, so that no man can arrogantly say they have all the answers. At some point, we all choose which scriptures we fully embrace, and which scriptures need re-interpreting. This is what I mean by choosing what you believe. God instructs us to have faith, which is the openness to seek and follow Him.

This is not what I asked.

First, to answer your question. Thank you, yet again. This completely coincides with post #1 - "provider of confusion"

And second, I asked if you could pray, on my behalf? And if God ever answers your request, this would mean God does answer intercessory prayer. Which would mean I would receive a response. Which in turn, I would let you know.

agapelove said:
God holds nothing against you (2 Corinthians 5:19), but rather whoever does not believe condemns them self already (John 3:18).

God is love (1 John 4:7, 4:8, 4:16) and God is Spirit (and John 4:24). The fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control according to Galatians 5:22-23. If you believe these things then in all conscience you are not really a nonbeliever. No doubt there are those who condemn themselves by refusing to believe love, choose joy, practice kindness, exercise hope, etc etc etc. So again I ask, why is the existence of God so rejectable for you?

As stated above, I prayed for His contact for decades, and nothing. So yes, He does apparently hold something 'against' me. He would ultimately want me to state I believe anyways, which would be a lie. Seems like a rather odd set of circumstances?

I cannot control what I believe. See below...

agapelove said:
Judgment is about what rewards we will receive in the next life.

This is how God tells us we can store up treasures in Heaven:

Giving to the needy (Luke 12:32-33)
Give to those who cannot repay (Luke 14:13-14)
Endure persecution (Matthew 5:11-12)
Loving your enemies (Matthew 5:43-48)
Praying (Matthew 6:5-6)
Serving God and others (Matthew 10:41-42)

Are you stating there exists levels in heaven - like the military, or Mormon-like thinking?

agapelove said:
My stance is that God will accomplish his eternal purpose in the end.

So again, in a round-about sort of way, you are stating that ultimately, either directly, or after some 'purification' process, all humans eventually go to heaven. And if this is the case, God leads many to think that some of their loved ones, whom do not comply, might reside in a place a torture eternally.

Does this sound like a 'loving' God to [you]? God's chosen portal of communication leads millions to believe that hell is forever, and that many fear that some of their loved ones might end up there.

If [you] knew your loved ones were mistaken, and [you] had full ability to correct them, would [you] purposefully avoid correcting them?

agapelove said:
There are many things people choose to believe. Aliens, parallel universes, ghosts, free will, luck, karma, astrology, morality, consciousness. There is as much proof as there is none for these things. You decide what is worth believing, and then you go from there. God included!

Disagree. Example...

Before the last U.S. election, I believed Trump could not win. Could I believe now, that he is not the assigned U.S. president; in light of the resulting provided evidence/results? Only if I was in denial, which is basically lying to myself....

Belief is not a choice. Again, I could protect my current belief, by choosing to avoid further presented evidence. However, once the evidence is presented, and I understand the evidence as presented, it either changes my mind, or maybe I live in denial, or the evidence does not alter my current position.

The same goes for "God." It is not my choice, that I feel I never received any contact from Him.

agapelove said:
Faith is how you choose to see the world, which affects how you live in the world and this is a continual process. When you say "I do" in a marriage you can't be certain that it will not end badly for you, but you choose to work hard, be faithful and love your partner until the very end.

Sure, 'faith' has many uses and meanings.

But in regards to believing in something you do not currently believe exists, you cannot. Otherwise, will yourself to believe in a pudding-filled-moon, goblins, the tooth fairy, pigs being able to fly, etc... You cannot without some sort of catalyst

agapelove said:
I'm sorry you feel that you wasted your time for 3 decades. Are you certain that God didn't answer your prayers, or is it simply because you didn't get the response you wanted?

If you feel I'm being honest, then you would know why this line of questioning is irrelevant. I honestly think God never answered. Thus, ultimately, I came to two conclusions:

1. He either does not really exist
2. He chooses not to answer, which seems to contradict many Verses in the Bible

If I am mistaken, and He has contacted me, it is still unknown to me. Hence, I am genuine to 'believe' He has not contacted me. And like I stated prior, I cannot control what I believe.

cvanwey · May 24, 2020

miknik5 said:
Was Paul....hosed, (as you put it)?

Depends....

Have we established which translation of 'blasphemy' the Bible is actually speaking about, via in Matthew 12:31-32, Luke 12:10, and Mark 3:28-29?

It also depends on if God deemed Paul's prior actions, before His conversion, 'speaking against'?

Maybe God presented Himself to Paul in a vision, so he could write half the NT? But maybe He used him as a tool, but He is not allowing him into heaven.?.?

Furthermore, did you ask God or Paul? I really could not say, since I do not have the ability to channel dead people, or God. Do you?

cvanwey · May 24, 2020

miknik5 said:
You could NEVER challenge my faith...

That's funny, because you could single-handedly change my belief quite easily. That's the difference between you and I, I guess? Which makes me wonder why I should even continue responding to you, at all????????????????????????????????????????????????????

miknik5 said:
what you did, was truncate my response to fit a rant of your own...that is dishonest...and that never goes well in any dispute.

I don't recall doing this. I feel I have addressed all your concerns. If you feel I missed something, please let me know.

miknik5 said:
Thankfully, this is a different arena...I simply stopped responding to you, which is what I told you I would do...

Actually, you did not stop responding. You accused me of dishonesty, and stated you were no longer going to respond. But that's okay, I welcome your continued responses. It's just too bad you appear so close-minded

miknik5 said:
However, I am back in this thread, reading, my intent was to figure out the discussion between you and Tom 1, and I came across these posts which you sent to me.

Um, okay, But my responses to you never stopped. You picked up where I left off. And if you think I'm being dishonest, which caused you to stop responding, then I never should see further response from you. But again, I welcome your responses, so it's okay

miknik5 said:
Now, I don´t care if you misrepresent me...but I do care, that in this arena, it becomes concrete words...and I need to make sure that I at least let those reading your opinions and ideas and imaginings of me...know exactly that is what they are...opinions, ideas and imaginings...and they do not hold truth about me....they are simply your words and they stay with you as your words, your ideas, your thoughts, your imaginings, your suggestions, your opinions...

k

cvanwey · May 24, 2020

miknik5 said:
Why sir? You already seem to look down your nose on short responses...so, why would it be difficult for you to read a WHOLE CHAPTER?

We had this discussion regarding those who know THE WORD and understand in full context compared to those who only offer snippets of THE WORD

As @Kylie told you in another thread, Christians hardly agree on anything. Thus, I would rather you just tell me [your] version of beliefs and events.

cvanwey · May 24, 2020

miknik5 said:
Says who sir? The one who has read in context or the one who offers snippets

I'm going to cut you quite a bit of slack, since you entered this thread late...

I have been around and around, regarding interpretation of entire passages (i.e.) Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 14:25-33, etc... And regardless, even if we branch out even further, the translation(s) among Christians are hardly ever universal.

If so, please explain the shear number of denominations?

cvanwey · May 24, 2020

miknik5 said:
Luke 14, in full context was explained to you now maybe 4 times...but you did not want to go back and read the full chapter.

I told you sir, those who have read and understand in context will clearly understand that when one offers snippets and gives his opinion on just that snippet, he clearly makes it obvious that he has not done his work of reading in context...

Which is WHY I keep stressing to you to read the full chapter...

As I've asked others, including you...

How do you know Luke 14:25-33 does not include you? The verse makes no reference to Jesus only speaking to a very specific group, at a very specific finite time

Maybe Jesus deems your faith weak?

cvanwey · May 24, 2020

miknik5 said:
For judgment I have come (John 9) should be sufficient....

You hit 'reply' to a multi-topic answer, I doubt one Chapter covers it? And furthermore.....

Post #695 please.

cvanwey · May 24, 2020

dcalling said:
If you let me know how to search for #620 I will take a look. If your answer is to page through then you have to post again

Sounds like you do not have much desire to address it

You skipped right over it, and I provided the post number for you. It's #620. If you care not to find it, I'm not going to do your work for you.

dcalling said:
Depend on if the prayer is approved by God or not.

If prayers are only answered, according to His will, then petitionary/intercessory prayer just might be meaningless? Which again, may suggest contradiction to the many verses I listed prior.

Furthermore, you missed another point. Apparently, God could not respond to the request at all, or, He could tell you no... However, if He never furnishes reason(s) why, then is this really a 'caring', 'loving', and human interacting God to begin with - (Psalm 145:9-13; Psalm 145:17)?

What prayers should a human expect for Him to answer, if He is going to deny genuine request(s) for clarification in verse?

dcalling said:
Only to some (i.e. Moses)

If the answer is yes, the answer is yes. It builds upon my point(s)

And furthermore, we have many other claims form the Bible, along with countless anecdotal claims regarding answers from God.

dcalling said:
See above.

See above

dcalling said:
He answers some directly, some in due time.

Or in my case, never. Even when others request upon my behalf.

dcalling said:
I just used another analogy, not goal post.

No. You switched to another argument. But it's okay

dcalling said:
Your example is the same, which I answered, you simply changed from "parent who lost child" to "child who learned something new".

My answer is again, a true Christian won't curse God, no matter what. I heard multiple instances of former atheists, who when come to this country to complete higher education, encounters older Christians who might only have a high school degree, argue with them, present scientific evidences, to which of course the Christian can't answer, and their reply is usually the will pray for it. A real Christian, when presented with evidence, they will think how it is used, study it, instead of simply curse God.

Faith come in many flavors, even for scientists. When Einstien and Borh debate about quantum coupling, Einstien win the first round, but Bohr didn't just curse himself. He prepared for the second day and win over many other scientists. Even after Bohr is proven right by some scientists from Bell labs, it was not the end of the story as just recently other scientists raised doubt about the validity of the test.

So some one might thought they believe, but have not touched by Holy spirit, might fall off, but one who got touched will never do.

YEC does not even apply here. It is more important to believe in the message of God instead of one or two interpretation of how God works.

We just went backwards like 200 posts again.

You are arguing the 'no true Scotsman fallacy' again.

"In this form of faulty reasoning one's belief is rendered unfalsifiable because no matter how compelling the evidence is, one simply shifts the goalposts so that it wouldn't apply to a supposedly 'true' example. This kind of post-rationalization is a way of avoiding valid criticisms of one's argument."

If a YEC believes in a literal translation, later majors in science, later sees conflict, curses God for deceiving him/her, later denouces Christianity, later reads another book explaining how evolution and the Bible can ajoin, believes in God again, and asks for forgiveness, of course this human was a Christian prior. Why?.....

The YEC was a literalist. They likely spent much time shutting their ears to opposing claims, for which they think are 'from the devil.' However, when enough evidence was presented to cause him/her to no longer believe it is literal, and hence, rebuke their believed upon God, and later, denounce the concept of God, this does not mean his/her prior belief was not 'strong.' It just means, in light of the new evidence, (s)he has no choice but to be honest with themselves.

miknik5 · May 24, 2020

cvanwey said:
Depends....

Have we established which translation of 'blasphemy' the Bible is actually speaking about, via in Matthew 12:31-32, Luke 12:10, and Mark 3:28-29?

It also depends on if God deemed Paul's prior actions, before His conversion, 'speaking against'?

Maybe God presented Himself to Paul in a vision, so he could write half the NT? But maybe He used him as a tool, but He is not allowing him into heaven.?.?

Furthermore, did you ask God or Paul? I really could not say, since I do not have the ability to channel dead people, or God. Do you?

Itś already written...there is no need to speculate...or offer....yeast....

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"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

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"Let not your heart be troubled"

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