The Law of Sin and Death

Cribstyl · May 15, 2020

What is the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2)? | GotQuestions.org

"What is the law of sin and death ?"

Paul refers to the law of sin and death in
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

In these verses, Paul contrasts two laws: the law of the Spirit and the law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit is the gospel or good news of Jesus, the message of new life through faith in the resurrected Christ. The law of sin and death is the Old Testament Law of God. The Law is holy, just and good (Romans 7:12), but, because we cannot keep God’s Law on our own, the result is only sin and death for those under the Law.

Romans 7:5 explains Paul’s focus on the Law as leading to sin and death: “For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.”
In contrast, the “way” or law of the Spirit is noted in Romans 7:6: “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”
The Law itself is not sinful (Romans 7:7). However, the Law defined sin and stirred up our natural rebellion against God’s rules, resulting in sin and death.

Romans 7:10–11 speaks of how sin, death, and the Law are connected: “I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.” This death refers to spiritual separation from God. Shackled by our depraved nature, we naturally opposed the Law, and we found that God’s life-giving Word served only to sentence us to death. It is because of this that Paul can refer to the Law as the “law of sin and death.”

The conclusion of Romans 7 shows the need of the gospel to deliver us from the consequences of sin under the Law:
“For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (Romans 7:22–25).

The next chapter, Romans 8, begins by declaring there is no longer any condemnation or judgment for those who are in Christ. We have been released from the law of sin and death. Paul’s argument from Romans 7 transitions in Romans 8 to a rejoicing over the change the gospel makes in the lives of those who believe in Jesus. The chapter concludes by confirming, in the strongest terms possible, that believers can never be separated from God’s love: “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38–39).

YouAreAwesome · May 15, 2020

Cribstyl said:
"What is the law of sin and death ?"

Paul refers to the law of sin and death in
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

In these verses, Paul contrasts two laws: the law of the Spirit and the law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit is the gospel or good news of Jesus, the message of new life through faith in the resurrected Christ. The law of sin and death is the Old Testament Law of God. The Law is holy, just and good (Romans 7:12), but, because we cannot keep God’s Law on our own, the result is only sin and death for those under the Law.

Romans 7:5 explains Paul’s focus on the Law as leading to sin and death: “For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.”
In contrast, the “way” or law of the Spirit is noted in Romans 7:6: “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”
The Law itself is not sinful (Romans 7:7). However, the Law defined sin and stirred up our natural rebellion against God’s rules, resulting in sin and death.

Romans 7:10–11 speaks of how sin, death, and the Law are connected: “I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.” This death refers to spiritual separation from God. Shackled by our depraved nature, we naturally opposed the Law, and we found that God’s life-giving Word served only to sentence us to death. It is because of this that Paul can refer to the Law as the “law of sin and death.”

The conclusion of Romans 7 shows the need of the gospel to deliver us from the consequences of sin under the Law:
“For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (Romans 7:22–25).

The next chapter, Romans 8, begins by declaring there is no longer any condemnation or judgment for those who are in Christ. We have been released from the law of sin and death. Paul’s argument from Romans 7 transitions in Romans 8 to a rejoicing over the change the gospel makes in the lives of those who believe in Jesus. The chapter concludes by confirming, in the strongest terms possible, that believers can never be separated from God’s love: “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38–39).

Good, good and good!

Bob S · May 15, 2020

Paul pins down in 2Cor3 what was the law of sin and death. There he called it the ministration of death. He contrasts the ten commandments (the old way) with the Holy Spirit (the new way). The letter killed and the Spirit gives life. The letter was a temporary way and the Spirit is the forever way. No wonder Paul wrote that we should not allow anyone to judge us by the laws of the old way like what we eat, keeping feasts and the Sabbath.

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Studyman · May 16, 2020

="Cribstyl, post: 74992585, member: 152004""What is the law of sin and death ?"

Recently, on this forum, I was given an opportunity to demonstrate how omitting a letter from a word, or a word from a sentence, or a sentence from a paragraph, can completely change, alter and corrupt the entire message that the original author was trying to covey. The Mainstream Preachers of Jesus time did this to God's Words, and it cost them their Salvation.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

You have provided another perfect example of the impact that omitting part's of God's Word has on HIS Gospel Message.

Romans 7:10–11 speaks of how sin, death, and the Law are connected: “I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.” This death refers to spiritual separation from God. Shackled by our depraved nature, we naturally opposed the Law, and we found that God’s life-giving Word served only to sentence us to death. It is because of this that Paul can refer to the Law (Your implication is the entire Law of God) as the “law of sin and death.”

So the implication of your post is that Paul is teaching that God's LAW is the reason for sin and death. And in the verses you selectively chose to make your point, it would seem Paul is indeed telling us that following God's Laws, and sin and death are connected, that it was following God's Laws that caused mans death.

But if you were to include the verses you selectively omitted, Paul's message takes on a completely different lesson. Here, let me show you what I mean.

Rom. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So if I stop there, what you are teaching others may have some merit. But if I continue and include the verses you omitted, Paul's true message comes into view.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Paul knows God's Word's are Holy and Good and Just, and yet it seemed to bring about his death. So he asked the very important question, a question that is to the very heart of your teaching on this matter..

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me?

Was the death penalty for rejecting God's Commandments placed there to destroy me?

You teach the answer to this question is "YES".

"and we found that God’s life-giving Word served only to sentence us to death

But Paul's answer is NO!, Not only NO, but God Forbid. Then Paul, in the verses you omitted, goes on to explain why the death penalty was given for sin.

God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; (SO) that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The reason why God placed such a stiff penalty for rebellion and disobedience to HIS Instruction, according to Paul here, is because Transgressing His Commandments is very, very, exceedingly Evil and wicked. It leads to evil continually. It is very, very bad for a man to choose his own way, or the way of other religious voices, over the Word's of God.

So God didn't place the death penalty for rebelling against His Word's on us to destroy us, but to teach us. To bring us to repentance.

And HE sent His only Son to die on our behalf, to pay our penalty for our rebellion and our dishonor and our disrespect for God, so that we might "Deny" our carnal self, Submit to God and "sin no more", disrespect no more, be rebellious no more.

The conclusion of Romans 7 shows the need of the gospel to deliver us from the consequences of sin under the Law:
“For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (Romans 7:22–25).

Here is another example of you omitting parts of Paul's Words. Again, Paul is teaching us, but for some reason you have chosen to selectively omit parts of his message.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin (Death) which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

OK, here is Paul telling us he struggles with 2 Laws. One from God and one from "another voice". Eve was confronted with the exact same struggle. She chose the "other voice". Which voice did Paul choose? He chose, but you omitted his choice from your teaching.

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (The part of the body that directs the our footsteps)I myself serve the law of God; (This is the part you omitted from your teaching)

but with the flesh the law of sin.

The LAW of Sin is Death. The Flesh is dead, crucified with Christ, no longer directing his lifestyle. He is no longer "serving Sin", but has now submitted to the God of the Bible, and is serving Righteousness. As Paul has already taught us.

Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, (Not God's definition of sin) ye became the servants of righteousness.

I am hoping you might reconsider your teaching of Paul here, and include all of his words in your understanding. I think this is why Jesus told the "other voice", "Man shall not live by bread alone, but be "EVERY" Word which proceeds from the mouth of God."[/QUOTE]

PROPHECYKID · May 16, 2020

Cribstyl said:
"What is the law of sin and death ?"

Paul refers to the law of sin and death in
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

In these verses, Paul contrasts two laws: the law of the Spirit and the law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit is the gospel or good news of Jesus, the message of new life through faith in the resurrected Christ. The law of sin and death is the Old Testament Law of God. The Law is holy, just and good (Romans 7:12), but, because we cannot keep God’s Law on our own, the result is only sin and death for those under the Law.

Romans 7:5 explains Paul’s focus on the Law as leading to sin and death: “For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.”
In contrast, the “way” or law of the Spirit is noted in Romans 7:6: “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”
The Law itself is not sinful (Romans 7:7). However, the Law defined sin and stirred up our natural rebellion against God’s rules, resulting in sin and death.

Romans 7:10–11 speaks of how sin, death, and the Law are connected: “I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.” This death refers to spiritual separation from God. Shackled by our depraved nature, we naturally opposed the Law, and we found that God’s life-giving Word served only to sentence us to death. It is because of this that Paul can refer to the Law as the “law of sin and death.”

The conclusion of Romans 7 shows the need of the gospel to deliver us from the consequences of sin under the Law:
“For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (Romans 7:22–25).

The next chapter, Romans 8, begins by declaring there is no longer any condemnation or judgment for those who are in Christ. We have been released from the law of sin and death. Paul’s argument from Romans 7 transitions in Romans 8 to a rejoicing over the change the gospel makes in the lives of those who believe in Jesus. The chapter concludes by confirming, in the strongest terms possible, that believers can never be separated from God’s love: “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38–39).

I dont know how you can read Romans 7 and conclude that the law of sin and death is the old testament law. Look at these verses again.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul here is clearly saying that he delights in the law of God after the inward man, meaning in his mind. But then there is another law in his members that opposes what is in his mind. Its the same thing as saying that the good he knows to do, he doesn't do. In his mind he knows what he has to do but in his members meaning his human nature, his actions opposes what is in his mind. Therefore, he is a slave to his own flesh, his own human nature which will always be in violation of the law and will then subject him to death because of sin.

The Law of Sin and Death is simply the principle that when you sin, you will have to die. As long as you are in the flesh, you will be a victim of this law because as long as you are in the flesh you will sin, you will violate the law of God. Once you are in the Spirit, you will no longer be powerless to your own human nature. You will no longer be a slave to sin because you will have the victory over sin through the power of the Spirit. This is why in Romans 8: 1 it says there is no more condemnation to whose who walk after the spirit and not after the flesh.

Soyeong · May 16, 2020

Cribstyl said:
"What is the law of sin and death ?"

Paul refers to the law of sin and death in
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

In these verses, Paul contrasts two laws: the law of the Spirit and the law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit is the gospel or good news of Jesus, the message of new life through faith in the resurrected Christ. The law of sin and death is the Old Testament Law of God. The Law is holy, just and good (Romans 7:12), but, because we cannot keep God’s Law on our own, the result is only sin and death for those under the Law.

Romans 7:5 explains Paul’s focus on the Law as leading to sin and death: “For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.”
In contrast, the “way” or law of the Spirit is noted in Romans 7:6: “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”
The Law itself is not sinful (Romans 7:7). However, the Law defined sin and stirred up our natural rebellion against God’s rules, resulting in sin and death.

Romans 7:10–11 speaks of how sin, death, and the Law are connected: “I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.” This death refers to spiritual separation from God. Shackled by our depraved nature, we naturally opposed the Law, and we found that God’s life-giving Word served only to sentence us to death. It is because of this that Paul can refer to the Law as the “law of sin and death.”

The conclusion of Romans 7 shows the need of the gospel to deliver us from the consequences of sin under the Law:
“For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (Romans 7:22–25).

The next chapter, Romans 8, begins by declaring there is no longer any condemnation or judgment for those who are in Christ. We have been released from the law of sin and death. Paul’s argument from Romans 7 transitions in Romans 8 to a rejoicing over the change the gospel makes in the lives of those who believe in Jesus. The chapter concludes by confirming, in the strongest terms possible, that believers can never be separated from God’s love: “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38–39).

In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's law and served it with His mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which was holding him captive, which was causing him not to do the good that he wanted to do, and which he served with his flesh, so he equated the Mosaic Law with the Law of the Spirit by contrasting them both with the law of sin. Likewise, in Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of Spirit are in accordance with it. After all, the Mosaic Law was given by God and the Spirit is God, so again it is the Law of the Spirit.

In Romans 7:7, it says that God's law is not sinful, but was given to reveal what sin is, and when our sin is revealed, then that leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease. However, the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, so it is sinful and causes sin to increase, so again it is the opposite of the Mosaic Law. So verses that refer to a law that is sinful or that causes sin to increase are referring to the law of sin rather than to the Mosaic Law, such as Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, 1 Corinthians 15:56, and Galatians 5:16-18.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel, which Jesus prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14). While it is true that there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ, it is also true that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked ( 1 John 2:6), so being in Christ does not remove our obligation to obey the Mosaic Law. The reason why there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ is because he gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins, which should make us want to go and sin no more by living in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

Bob S · May 17, 2020

Matt 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

I would like to for those who have commented on that verse as meaning something different than what is actually is telling us to look at the verse once more. Leave the law out of the passage and concentrate on the prophets. The question is did Jesus fulfil the prophecies concerning His coming? Of course He did. Those prophecies written hundreds of years before came to their fulfilment with the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus brought those prophecies to an end.

Now lets, with the same knowledge, look at the law in that passage. Jesus also brought the law to an end. The word "fulfil" had to have had the same meaning for law as it did for prophecies. Now let us see what verse 18 is really telling us: 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Jesus is telling us that until all is accomplished the law would remain in effect. Actually that was a short period since Jesus declared all this in a three year period an brought the law and the prophecies to an end at Calvary. Jesus at His death on the Cross ratified the new covenant with His own blood doing away with the old covenant and its 613 commands.

Those of you that tell us we are under the Mosaic law are denying what Jesus did for mankind at Calvary. Gentiles were never under the Mosaic law, but you insist that once Gentiles accept Jesus that automatically changes? Paul calls the ten commandments of the Mosaic law the ministry of death and you want to put us under what Jesus relieved Israel from? You have the mistaken belief that the ten commandments were an eternal law. The covenant which contained the ten commandments was an "IF" covenant. Israel failed to keep the covenant, so what could have been an eternal law, had Israel remained faithful, ended at Calvary.

Oh! you who think we are lawless and want to put us under the law, have you read Jesus own words in John 15?
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

What were the Father's commandments that Jesus kept? Scripture tell us that it was the Mosaic law. He Kept Sabbath , the feasts, and every aspect of the Mosaic law that concerned Him. He was without sin. Is He asking us to observe the Mosaic law in these verses? So, why are you telling us we have to do something Jesus didn't do? He asks us to keep His command in verse 12, love each other as He loves us. He loves us so much that He gave His life so that we will have life with Him eternally.

Studyman · May 17, 2020

Bob S said:
Matt 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

I would like to for those who have commented on that verse as meaning something different than what is actually is telling us to look at the verse once more. Leave the law out of the passage and concentrate on the prophets. The question is did Jesus fulfil the prophecies concerning His coming? Of course He did. Those prophecies written hundreds of years before came to their fulfilment with the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus brought those prophecies to an end.

The Death of Jesus is only the beginning of the Prophesies regarding HIM. Unless HE comes back and resurrects man, HIS birth, death and resurrection are of no consequence. The very reason for HIS Life, death and Resurrection was for the Prophesies which have yet to be fulfilled.

So He has fulfilled the Prophesy of His Coming as a man, but not the Prophesy of HIS Triumphant Return, not as a Lamb to the Slaughter, but as King of Kings, Lord of Lords.

So then, according to HIM and HIS OWN Words, as Long as heaven and earth are here, so is the Law and Prophets, "till all be fulfilled."

And as much as religious man would like to believe "ALL" has been fulfilled regarding Christ Jesus, it simply isn't true if the Holy Scriptures are the source in which we trust.

Cribstyl · May 17, 2020

PROPHECYKID said:
I dont know how you can read Romans 7 and conclude that the law of sin and death is the old testament law. Look at these verses again.

Hey PK, long time since we've chat.
OK let's look at Rom 7 again.
Rom 7:5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:5 says When we did acts of sin by what is written in the law. The results of it brings death.
PK, this is explaining the law is the law of sin and death.
Rom 7:8 identifies 1 of the commandments of 'the law in question' as "thou shall not covet."
Please defend point #1.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul here is clearly saying that he delights in the law of God after the inward man, meaning in his mind. But then there is another law in his members that opposes what is in his mind. Its the same thing as saying that the good he knows to do, he doesn't do. In his mind he knows what he has to do but in his members meaning his human nature, his actions opposes what is in his mind. Therefore, he is a slave to his own flesh, his own human nature which will always be in violation of the law and will then subject him to death because of sin.

PK, you're correct about 22,23 in the context when Paul explains the internal battle fought within himself. (Rom 7:8-23). He explained that he found within himself, the same commandment that is suppose to bring life was found to bring death. This internal battle with sin is only won when we've accepted Jesus Christ. (v25)
NLT puts it best.
Rom 7:25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

Rom 8 Explains now that we've accepted Christ, you're no longer condemned by the law.
"The law of God" and "the law of sin and death" is the same law.

The Law of Sin and Death is simply the principle that when you sin, you will have to die. As long as you are in the flesh, you will be a victim of this law because as long as you are in the flesh you will sin, you will violate the law of God. Once you are in the Spirit, you will no longer be powerless to your own human nature. You will no longer be a slave to sin because you will have the victory over sin through the power of the Spirit. This is why in Romans 8: 1 it says there is no more condemnation to whose who walk after the spirit and not after the flesh.

Rom 8 Is the solution to the losing internal battle we fight with the law. It tell us We're free from condemnation of the law. (The law was design to condemn sin)

Soyeong · May 17, 2020

Bob S said:
Matt 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

I would like to for those who have commented on that verse as meaning something different than what is actually is telling us to look at the verse once more. Leave the law out of the passage and concentrate on the prophets. The question is did Jesus fulfil the prophecies concerning His coming? Of course He did. Those prophecies written hundreds of years before came to their fulfilment with the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus brought those prophecies to an end.

Now lets, with the same knowledge, look at the law in that passage. Jesus also brought the law to an end. The word "fulfil" had to have had the same meaning for law as it did for prophecies. Now let us see what verse 18 is really telling us: 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Jesus is telling us that until all is accomplished the law would remain in effect. Actually that was a short period since Jesus declared all this in a three year period an brought the law and the prophecies to an end at Calvary. Jesus at His death on the Cross ratified the new covenant with His own blood doing away with the old covenant and its 613 commands.

Those of you that tell us we are under the Mosaic law are denying what Jesus did for mankind at Calvary. Gentiles were never under the Mosaic law, but you insist that once Gentiles accept Jesus that automatically changes? Paul calls the ten commandments of the Mosaic law the ministry of death and you want to put us under what Jesus relieved Israel from? You have the mistaken belief that the ten commandments were an eternal law. The covenant which contained the ten commandments was an "IF" covenant. Israel failed to keep the covenant, so what could have been an eternal law, had Israel remained faithful, ended at Calvary.

Oh! you who think we are lawless and want to put us under the law, have you read Jesus own words in John 15?
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

What were the Father's commandments that Jesus kept? Scripture tell us that it was the Mosaic law. He Kept Sabbath , the feasts, and every aspect of the Mosaic law that concerned Him. He was without sin. Is He asking us to observe the Mosaic law in these verses? So, why are you telling us we have to do something Jesus didn't do? He asks us to keep His command in verse 12, love each other as He loves us. He loves us so much that He gave His life so that we will have life with Him eternally.

You granted that Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so your interpretation of John 15:10-13 is essentially making Jesus out to be a hypocrite who preached something other than what he practiced. The reality is that Jesus was using a parallel statement to equate the commands that he taught with those of the Father. In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own but that of the Father, so he was not expressing disagreement with what the Father taught. Jesus taught his followers how to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and he did not go to the cross in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so that is how he expressed his love and how we are to love as he loved.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renonce doing what is ungodly, and the Mosaic Law was how the Israelites were taught to do those things. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to by teaching him to obey His law, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation, and participating in that training does nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it looks like to receive it. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what being saved from living in transgression of God's law looks like. Furthermore, Titus 2:14 says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe in what he accomplished on the cross, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20) and will consider saying that he abolished any laws to be undermining what he gave himself to accomplish. Those of you that tell us we are NOT under the Mosaic law are denying what Jesus did for mankind at Calvary.

Jesus said that he come to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it, so you should not interpret that as meaning essentially the same thing.

NAS Greek Lexicon (2c3):
to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

There aren't any options other than the Mosaic Law for how the Israelites were taught about how to know God and how to walk in His ways (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7). God's ways are His nature or character trait and the Bible often uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of God's law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to express His character traits, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). The way to express God's righteousness is straightforwardly based on God's righteousness, not on any particular covenant, and God's righteousness is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to do what is righteous are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. As part of the New Covenant, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God (1 John 3:10).

Instructions for how how to act in accordance with God's nature can't be abolished without first abolishing God, which is essentially what you are seeking to do by arguing that the Mosaic Law has been abolished. You are rejecting who the God of Israel has revealed Himself to be and who Jesus is because he is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). He expressed the divine nature through his actions and what that looked like was sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is also what it looks like when we are partaking of the divine nature.

Bob S · May 17, 2020

Studyman said:
The Death of Jesus is only the beginning of the Prophesies regarding HIM. Unless HE comes back and resurrects man, HIS birth, death and resurrection are of no consequence. The very reason for HIS Life, death and Resurrection was for the Prophesies which have yet to be fulfilled.

Hi Sudyman, Something I would like to know, are you for real or is this some kind of game you are playing? Most of your posts find fault with everything others write. I have to question the answers you give that try to negate the posts of others.

Now as to your post trying to negate what I just wrote I would like to direct you to Jesus word about the law. He, in no uncertain words, said: "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Your response to that is that not all has been fulfilled thus rendering my post as really a lie. Lets, for a second, assume your response is correct. Do you have any idea what you have placed yourself under? Not one jot or one tittle means that you are obligated to observe the whole law. Every law in the Torah that would pertain to the laity would be on your menu. Where are your sideburns, Are your tzitzits (tassels) on the four corners of your garments and do you observe all the feasts and new moons? When you get some mold in your home do you tear it down? When you make gravy do you use milk? If you raise any crops or animals do you pay your tithes on your increase with animals or produce? Are you doing all the animal sacrificing required by the law? Of course I have left many jots and tittles out of the
equation, but suerly you get the point.
What is the truth is that Jesus came and did all that was required of Him. He fulfilled everything needed to secure our salvation. We want for nothing. In fact my eternal life began the moment I believed. Jn 5:24

Bob S · May 17, 2020

Soyeong said:
You granted that Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so your interpretation of John 15:10-13 is essentially making Jesus out to be a hypocrite who preached something other than what he practiced.

Absolutely not my interpretation my friend. What you are doing is taking away the clear words of Jesus who wrote that He kept the covenant requirements and asks us to keep the requirements He prescribed. How you could come to the conclusion that I made Jesus' words out to make Him a hypocrite is very annoying. I believe exactly what is written, it appears you don't and I believe it because it obliterates your belief system.

The reality is that Jesus was using a parallel statement to equate the commands that he taught with those of the Father. In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own but that of the Father, so he was not expressing disagreement with what the Father taught. Jesus taught his followers how to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and he did not go to the cross in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so that is how he expressed his love and how we are to love as he loved.

Jesus was under the Mosaic covenant just as those He was teaching. The new and better covenant had yet to be ratified. You should know that. The Mosaic covenant with its 613 laws ended at Jesus death. By the way Gentiles were never under the Mosaic covenant. How is it that when we become Christians we are obligated to observe it. Who gave that law?

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renonce doing what is ungodly, and the Mosaic Law was how the Israelites were taught to do those things.

That is correct, the Israelites and no one else.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to by teaching him to obey His law, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation, and participating in that training does nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it looks like to receive it. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what being saved from living in transgression of God's law looks like. Furthermore, Titus 2:14 says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe in what he accomplished on the cross, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20) and will consider saying that he abolished any laws to be undermining what he gave himself to accomplish. Those of you that tell us we are NOT under the Mosaic law are denying what Jesus did for mankind at Calvary.

Balderdash! The Mosaic laws are not the criteria for determining sin. That is where you error.

Jesus said that he come to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it, so you should not interpret that as meaning essentially the same thing.

The law had already been abolished by the same people God gave it to. Jesus didn't abolish it, he kept it thus fulfilling the requirements of the law for Israel and Judah. The law was abolished long before Jesus came on the scene.

NAS Greek Lexicon (2c3):
to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
In the case of Matt 5 did Jesus fulfill the prophecies concerning Himself? The prophecies then came to an end as it did also for the law. The meaning of fulfil means to bring to to an end my friend. (a little poetry)

There aren't any options other than the Mosaic Law for how the Israelites were taught about how to know God and how to walk in His ways

Not quite true. Was it not Moses who wrote how Abraham was saved? Israel knew how to be saved and it was not by keeping the law.

Cribstyl · May 17, 2020

Studyman said:
="Cribstyl, post: 74992585, member: 152004""What is the law of sin and death ?"

Recently, on this forum, I was given an opportunity to demonstrate how omitting a letter from a word, or a word from a sentence, or a sentence from a paragraph, can completely change, alter and corrupt the entire message that the original author was trying to covey. The Mainstream Preachers of Jesus time did this to God's Words, and it cost them their Salvation.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

You have provided another perfect example of the impact that omitting part's of God's Word has on HIS Gospel Message.

First of, this thread is based on a question from "Got Questions" and not my personal writing. Sorry if I gave that impression.
I'm in total agreement because it's based solely on what we can discuss and prove from Roman 7 and 8.
Your rants are mischaracterizing what is clearly written in the OP.

So the implication of your post is that Paul is teaching that God's LAW is the reason for sin and death. And in the verses you selectively chose to make your point, it would seem Paul is indeed telling us that following God's Laws, and sin and death are connected, that it was following God's Laws that caused mans death.

Shamelessly fictional, it's not saying or implying that the law is the reason for sin and death. It's not saying that God's law caused man's death. Your response is bogus and dishonest at best.
SIN is the reason for death, but the law is a considered, a list of sins that results in death.

The OP's question is asked: What is the law of Sin and death? What verses are you claiming is omitted to make that argument? Rom 8:2 says that the law of the Spirit sets us free from the law of sin and death. So, Rom 8:2 alone is sufficient to support the question: "What is the law of Sin and death?" To answer the question the article first references Rom 7:5
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
The answer is seen in verse 5 shows that : sins by the law bring death.

The article goes on to explain with Rom 7 that both flesh and spirit is in a struggle with the law and can only be won with Jesus Christ (verse 25).
Rom 7:8-23 Is Paul's internal struggle with the law. Paul says, he finds the commandment that supposed to bring life gives death. (10)
Yes the law is Holy, Just and good, but does it give life? No, Jesus gives life......not you keeping the law.

What you claim is missing is inapplicable to the question.

But if you were to include the verses you selectively omitted, Paul's message takes on a completely different lesson. Here, let me show you what I mean.

Rom. 7:

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So if I stop there, what you are teaching others may have some merit. But if I continue and include the verses you omitted, Paul's true message comes into view.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Paul knows God's Word's are Holy and Good and Just, and yet it seemed to bring about his death. So he asked the very important question, a question that is to the very heart of your teaching on this matter..

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me?

Was the death penalty for rejecting God's Commandments placed there to destroy me?

You teach the answer to this question is "YES".

"and we found that God’s life-giving Word served only to sentence us to death

But Paul's answer is NO!, Not only NO, but God Forbid. Then Paul, in the verses you omitted, goes on to explain why the death penalty was given for sin.

God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; (SO) that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The reason why God placed such a stiff penalty for rebellion and disobedience to HIS Instruction, according to Paul here, is because Transgressing His Commandments is very, very, exceedingly Evil and wicked. It leads to evil continually. It is very, very bad for a man to choose his own way, or the way of other religious voices, over the Word's of God.

So God didn't place the death penalty for rebelling against His Word's on us to destroy us, but to teach us. To bring us to repentance.

And HE sent His only Son to die on our behalf, to pay our penalty for our rebellion and our dishonor and our disrespect for God, so that we might "Deny" our carnal self, Submit to God and "sin no more", disrespect no more, be rebellious no more.

Here is another example of you omitting parts of Paul's Words. Again, Paul is teaching us, but for some reason you have chosen to selectively omit parts of his message.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin (Death) which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

OK, here is Paul telling us he struggles with 2 Laws. One from God and one from "another voice". Eve was confronted with the exact same struggle. She chose the "other voice". Which voice did Paul choose? He chose, but you omitted his choice from your teaching.

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (The part of the body that directs the our footsteps)I myself serve the law of God; (This is the part you omitted from your teaching)

but with the flesh the law of sin.

The LAW of Sin is Death. The Flesh is dead, crucified with Christ, no longer directing his lifestyle. He is no longer "serving Sin", but has now submitted to the God of the Bible, and is serving Righteousness. As Paul has already taught us.

Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, (Not God's definition of sin) ye became the servants of righteousness.

I am hoping you might reconsider your teaching of Paul here, and include all of his words in your understanding. I think this is why Jesus told the "other voice", "Man shall not live by bread alone, but be "EVERY" Word which proceeds from the mouth of God."

obviously you're entitled to your opinion.

PROPHECYKID · May 17, 2020

Cribstyl said:
Hey PK, long time since we've chat.
OK let's look at Rom 7 again.
Rom 7:5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:5 says When we did acts of sin by what is written in the law. The results of it brings death.
PK, this is explaining the law is the law of sin and death.
Rom 7:8 identifies 1 of the commandments of 'the law in question' as "thou shall not covet."
Please defend point #1.
PK, you're correct about 22,23 in the context when Paul explains the internal battle fought within himself. (Rom 7:8-23). He explained that he found within himself, the same commandment that is suppose to bring life was found to bring death. This internal battle with sin is only won when we've accepted Jesus Christ. (v25)
NLT puts it best.
Rom 7:25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

Rom 8 Explains now that we've accepted Christ, you're no longer condemned by the law.
"The law of God" and "the law of sin and death" is the same law.

Rom 8 Is the solution to the losing internal battle we fight with the law. It tell us We're free from condemnation of the law. (The law was design to condemn sin)

My brother, no way the law of God and the law of sin and death is the same because it explains very clearly in verse 22 and 23 that the law of God in his mind is conflicting with the law of sin and death in his members. Its not the same thing.

And going back to verse 8, Paul is talking about being in the flesh. While one is in the flesh the law must become death to them because in the flesh you are always going to do the wrong thing and go against the will of God. Therefore, you will always be a slave to sin once you are in the flesh. Which means since the wages of sin is death, and death the the transgression of the law, its going to be death to do. But sin is the real problem. Paul says this in Romans 8.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

It says here to be carnally minded is death which is how you are when you are in the flesh. Then Paul says the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, and those in the flesh (carnal minded) cannot please God. Lets go back to Romans 7: 22, Paul says he delights in the law of God after the inward man. When Paul refers to the inward man, everywhere he uses that expression he refers to being in the spirit or a spiritual application, not a carnal or fleshy application. If he delights in God's law after the inward man, but in his flesh is another law that wars against the law in his mind, how can these 2 laws be the same?

Soyeong · May 17, 2020

Bob S said:
Absolutely not my interpretation my friend. What you are doing is taking away the clear words of Jesus who wrote that He kept the covenant requirements and asks us to keep the requirements He prescribed. How you could come to the conclusion that I made Jesus' words out to make Him a hypocrite is very annoying. I believe exactly what is written, it appears you don't and I believe it because it obliterates your belief system.

The Bible uses an extraordinary amount of parallel statements, which are two different ways of saying that same thing, so it is your interpretation that he was contrasting his commands with the Father's commands rather than using a parallel statement to equate them. Jesus set an example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so if you think that he was telling his disciples to do what he said and not what he did, that that makes him out to be a hypocrite. As his followers we are told to follow his example (1 John 2:6), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 11:1), so we are to follow both what he taught by word and what he taught by example, and there is not a disconnect between the two.

Jesus was under the Mosaic covenant just as those He was teaching. The new and better covenant had yet to be ratified. You should know that. The Mosaic covenant with its 613 laws ended at Jesus death. By the way Gentiles were never under the Mosaic covenant. How is it that when we become Christians we are obligated to observe it. Who gave that law?

Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, and Christians are those who seek by faith to follow what he taught by word and by example.

Again the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness is based on God's righteousness, not on any particular covenant, so a covenant becoming obsolete does not cause the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness to become obsolete along with it. Sin was in the world before the Mosaic Law was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became righteous or sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, it was sinful to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, so there is nothing about any of God's covenants being made or becoming obsolete that changes which actions are righteous or sinful.

So while Jesus established the New Covenant with his death, there were no eternal laws that were ended, but rather the New Covenant still involves following God's law (Hebrews 8:10). Even if God had never made any covenants with man, there would still exist a way to act in accordance with His righteousness and to refrain from sin which we would still be obligated to follow, so not being under the Mosaic Covenant is irrelevant.

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is God's law. Gentiles are either under God's law and are obligated to refrain from sin or are not under God's law, have no obligation to refrain from sin, gave no need of grace, and have no need for Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness. However, God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and are obligated to refrain from sin, even those who aren't even in a covenant relationship with Him, such as when God judged the world with the Flood. They didn't get to choose whether or not they wanted to be under God's law and neither do you, but the choice you do get to make is whether or not you are going to heed the Gospel message, repent, and obey.

That is correct, the Israelites and no one else.

The way to act in accordance with God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness is based on who God is, not on who the Israelites are. The Israelites were given the role of being a light to the nations, yet you are rejecting the light because it was given to them in order to teach you instead of being directly given to you. Sin was in the world before the Israelites existed as a nation, so it is not specific to them.

The Mosaic laws are not the criteria for determining sin. That is where you error.

How else do you think that the Israelites knew what sin is if not for the Mosaic Law? It was given to give us knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), Paul would not have known what sin is if it weren't for God's law (Romans 7:7), and sin is defined as the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). When Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, and the same is true of Acts 2:38.

The law had already been abolished by the same people God gave it to. Jesus didn't abolish it, he kept it thus fulfilling the requirements of the law for Israel and Judah. The law was abolished long before Jesus came on the scene.

Jesus was born under the law (Galatians 4:4), so it had not been abolished before he came on the scene. There is nothing that people can do to abolish any God eternal laws. For example, there is nothing that we can do to change whether it is a sin to commit adultery. The actions that are sinful are based on who God is, not on what we do.

NAS Greek Lexicon (2c3):
to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
In the case of Matt 5 did Jesus fulfill the prophecies concerning Himself? The prophecies then came to an end as it did also for the law. The meaning of fulfil means to bring to to an end my friend. (a little poetry)

The definition in the NAS Greek lexicon distinguishes between what it means to fulfill the law and what it means to fulfill a prophecy. Jesus did not end any prophesies, especially those in regard to his second coming. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it doesn't refer to something unique to Jesus. And again Jesus specifically said that he came not to abolish the law, so you are trying to make him out to be a liar.

Not quite true. Was it not Moses who wrote how Abraham was saved? Israel knew how to be saved and it was not by keeping the law.

I didn't say that we earn our salvation by obeying the law. In Jeremiah 9:4-13, the Israelites had refused to know God because they had forsaken the Mosaic Law. The way to be saved from living in disobedience to God's law does not involve refusing to repent.

Cribstyl · May 18, 2020

PROPHECYKID said:
My brother, no way the law of God and the law of sin and death is the same because it explains very clearly in verse 22 and 23 that the law of God in his mind is conflicting with the law of sin and death in his members. Its not the same thing.

For a moment, PLEASE let's read through the NLT version for it's simple interpretation and understanding.
Rom 7:7-25

God’s Law Reveals Our Sin
Rom 7:7 ¶Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”
Rom 7:8 But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power.

Rom 7:9 At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life,
Rom 7:10 and I died. So I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead.
Rom 7:11 Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me.
Rom 7:12 But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.
Rom 7:13 ¶ But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God’s good commands for its own evil purposes.

Rom 7:14¶ So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin.
Rom 7:15 I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate.
Rom 7:16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good.
Rom 7:17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
Rom 7:18 ¶And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.
Rom 7:19 I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway.
Rom 7:20 But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
Rom 7:21 ¶ I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong.
Rom 7:22 I love God’s law with all my heart.
Rom 7:23 But there is another power
Rom 7:24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death?
Rom 7:25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

PK, Paul is saying the problem we have is this; sin uses the law of God and condemns us to death. True or False?
Our problem is with sin, our problem is not the law. True or False?

The law gives sin power (we can call it the law of sin but technically, there is really no law of sin) True or False?

In Rom 7: 7-25 Paul is explaining his internal struggle with sin and the law of God. True or False?

At the end of this struggle the answer is Jesus Christ. True or False?

And going back to verse 8, Paul is talking about being in the flesh. While one is in the flesh the law must become death to them because in the flesh you are always going to do the wrong thing and go against the will of God. Therefore, you will always be a slave to sin once you are in the flesh. Which means since the wages of sin is death, and death the the transgression of the law, its going to be death to do. But sin is the real problem. Paul says this in Romans 8.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

It says here to be carnally minded is death which is how you are when you are in the flesh. Then Paul says the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, and those in the flesh (carnal minded) cannot please God. Lets go back to Romans 7: 22, Paul says he delights in the law of God after the inward man. When Paul refers to the inward man, everywhere he uses that expression he refers to being in the spirit or a spiritual application, not a carnal or fleshy application. If he delights in God's law after the inward man, but in his flesh is another law that wars against the law in his mind, how can these 2 laws be the same?

When Paul goes to his internal battle with sin, he is using metaphors to explain the struggle. The laws in questions are sin and the law, but there is really only 1 law.

Isolating certain scriptures can fit a narrative of choice, but scriptures in context interprets scriptures. I have not introduced any other scriptures or doctrine other than Rom 7 in this post. My commentary is disposable but God's word remains.

Studyman · May 18, 2020

Bob S said:
Hi Sudyman, Something I would like to know, are you for real or is this some kind of game you are playing? Most of your posts find fault with everything others write. I have to question the answers you give that try to negate the posts of others.

I'm not trying to negate posts, just the opposite, to examine them and compare them to the actual Word of God. Why?? Because the greatest danger, according to Jesus, for a person seeking first the Kingdom of God, are the voices of the "many" who come in Christ's Name.

You are promoting an ancient religious doctrine that Jesus fulfilled "ALL" Prophesy about Himself at HIS death. This teaching is untrue. I thought you might want to know.

Now as to your post trying to negate what I just wrote I would like to direct you to Jesus word about the law. He, in no uncertain words, said:

"one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Your response to that is that not all has been fulfilled thus rendering my post as really a lie.

We are both born into religions which have corrupted God's Word for Centuries, just as Jesus was.. As a result, there are many religious doctrines which are taught as truth, but are not true. One such popular doctrine is that the Christ Jesus fulfilled every prophesy about HIM Self, given in the Law and Prophets, at His Death. This is not true as I tried to point out to you. And unless the rest of the Prophesies regarding the Christ come to pass, what has been fulfilled will have been for naught.

So the Biblical Truth is "ALL" Prophesy regarding the Christ has not yet to been fulfilled. Your unbelief has no bearing on this truth.

Lets, for a second, assume your response is correct.

We don't have to assume Bob, I am not assuming anything here. It is a provable Biblical Fact that there are Prophesies regarding the Christ, which have not yet been fulfilled. It's not "my truth" , but the Word of God which became Flesh's truth. If this untruth is a foundation of man's belief, does it not leaven the whole lump? And if I see this untruth being promoted, shall I not bring it up for discussion?

Do you have any idea what you have placed yourself under? Not one jot or one tittle means that you are obligated to observe the whole law. Every law in the Torah that would pertain to the laity would be on your menu. Where are your sideburns, Are your tzitzits (tassels) on the four corners of your garments and do you observe all the feasts and new moons? When you get some mold in your home do you tear it down? When you make gravy do you use milk?

I do get your point Bob. That is why I responded in the first place. What you are omitting, again, is the truth that God's Law is Spiritual. You don't understand these instructions because you have been convinced to reject them outright.

But Paul didn't reject them outright, rather he worked to understand them, and then applied them to his life, and into his teaching towards others..

1 Cor. 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? 8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

These instructions, from what many preach is the obsolete law of Moses, are from the same God that commanded we should not hate our brother in our heart. Did Paul judge God and HIS Word here? Did Paul imply God's instructions were not worthy of his consideration simply because he didn't own an ox? No, Paul knew these instructions were still applicable to him and those who he was teaching, so he worked to understand why God wrote this instruction for him.

"Where are your sideburns"? Is God interested in sideburns? Of course not, so what is the meaning behind these Word's HE had written for us?

"Are your tzitzits (tassels) on the four corners of your garments"? Is God interested in fabric? Of course not, so what is the meaning behind these Word's HE had written for us??

It seems you have been convinced that God's Laws are a Yoke and a Burden placed on the necks of His People. Another untrue doctrine taught in the religions of the land we are born into. Should we not place these doctrines out in the open and Let the Light shine on them?

If you raise any crops or animals do you pay your tithes on your increase with animals or produce? Are you doing all the animal sacrificing required by the law? Of course I have left many jots and tittles out of the
equation, but suerly you get the point.

Is God interested in animals or tomatoes? Of course not. Does God desire Sacrifice?

1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

The Law and Prophets itself promised of a time "after those days" when God Himself would provide His Blood for the atonement of HIS People. For me to continue in the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "Deeds" of the Law, would be a direct rejection of HIS Own promises given in the same Law and Prophets.

Why was Paul still applying Laws about oxen threshing grain, many preach are done away with, to his life 14 plus years after you preach Jesus Fulfilled ALL things, thus bringing the Law and Prophets to an end??

Because Paul knew "ALL" had yet to be fulfilled, and he believed in the Word's of the Jesus of the Bible.

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled".

And Paul knows "ALL" had not yet been fulfilled, therefore, the Law and Prophets have not passed.

What is the truth is that Jesus came and did all that was required of Him.

According to the Scriptures He is still performed required works advocating on our behalf before God. And there are HIS Own interpretation of the Prophesies as well.

Matt. 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

This is one of several very important Prophesies which have yet to be Fulfilled.

He fulfilled everything needed to secure our salvation. We want for nothing. In fact my eternal life began the moment I believed. Jn

1 Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

As Paul said;

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Look Bob, I know these things are difficult for religious men to consider, especially those who have already been convinced they are all set, that they have already been gifted with eternal life. But God knew this would happen, this is why HE had Paul remind us of the Law and Prophets Jesus said would not pass, and that they were written, not for them, but for us, for our admonition. And why???? So that those who think they are all set, might take HEED, lest they fall. That is all I'm saying here, that we let "Every Word of God" guide our life, not religious doctrines and traditions of the land.

Surely you get the point!

SM

Studyman · May 18, 2020

Soyeong said:
The Bible uses an extraordinary amount of parallel statements, which are two different ways of saying that same thing, so it is your interpretation that he was contrasting his commands with the Father's commands rather than using a parallel statement to equate them. Jesus set an example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so if you think that he was telling his disciples to do what he said and not what he did, that that makes him out to be a hypocrite. As his followers we are told to follow his example (1 John 2:6), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 11:1), so we are to follow both what he taught by word and what he taught by example, and there is not a disconnect between the two.

Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, and Christians are those who seek by faith to follow what he taught by word and by example.

Again the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness is based on God's righteousness, not on any particular covenant, so a covenant becoming obsolete does not cause the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness to become obsolete along with it. Sin was in the world before the Mosaic Law was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became righteous or sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, it was sinful to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, so there is nothing about any of God's covenants being made or becoming obsolete that changes which actions are righteous or sinful.

So while Jesus established the New Covenant with his death, there were no eternal laws that were ended, but rather the New Covenant still involves following God's law (Hebrews 8:10). Even if God had never made any covenants with man, there would still exist a way to act in accordance with His righteousness and to refrain from sin which we would still be obligated to follow, so not being under the Mosaic Covenant is irrelevant.

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is God's law. Gentiles are either under God's law and are obligated to refrain from sin or are not under God's law, have no obligation to refrain from sin, gave no need of grace, and have no need for Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness. However, God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and are obligated to refrain from sin, even those who aren't even in a covenant relationship with Him, such as when God judged the world with the Flood. They didn't get to choose whether or not they wanted to be under God's law and neither do you, but the choice you do get to make is whether or not you are going to heed the Gospel message, repent, and obey.

The way to act in accordance with God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness is based on who God is, not on who the Israelites are. The Israelites were given the role of being a light to the nations, yet you are rejecting the light because it was given to them in order to teach you instead of being directly given to you. Sin was in the world before the Israelites existed as a nation, so it is not specific to them.

How else do you think that the Israelites knew what sin is if not for the Mosaic Law? It was given to give us knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), Paul would not have known what sin is if it weren't for God's law (Romans 7:7), and sin is defined as the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). When Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, and the same is true of Acts 2:38.

Jesus was born under the law (Galatians 4:4), so it had not been abolished before he came on the scene. There is nothing that people can do to abolish any God eternal laws. For example, there is nothing that we can do to change whether it is a sin to commit adultery. The actions that are sinful are based on who God is, not on what we do.

The definition in the NAS Greek lexicon distinguishes between what it means to fulfill the law and what it means to fulfill a prophecy. Jesus did not end any prophesies, especially those in regard to his second coming. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it doesn't refer to something unique to Jesus. And again Jesus specifically said that he came not to abolish the law, so you are trying to make him out to be a liar.

I didn't say that we earn our salvation by obeying the law. In Jeremiah 9:4-13, the Israelites had refused to know God because they had forsaken the Mosaic Law. The way to be saved from living in disobedience to God's law does not involve refusing to repent.

This is beautiful Soyeong,

A real joy for me to read and study.

Thank you for it

PROPHECYKID · May 18, 2020

PK, Paul is saying the problem we have is this; sin uses the law of God and condemns us to death. True or False?

True but i would not say it this way. The bible says in times of ignorance God winks and by the law is the knowledge of sin. So the sin exists regardless of the law but God cannot hold us accountable for what we do not know. So when we have a knowledge of sin (which comes by the law) then we can be judged for our sin.

Our problem is with sin, our problem is not the law. True or False?

True

The law gives sin power (we can call it the law of sin but technically, there is really no law of sin) True or False?

True and I explained it above.

In Rom 7: 7-25 Paul is explaining his internal struggle with sin and the law of God. True or False?

True, because he was in the flesh.

At the end of this struggle the answer is Jesus Christ. True or False?

Very true, because he was then walking after the spirit. I think the contrast is walking after the flesh, vs walking after the spirit and when you walk after the spirit you have the victory of sin.

When Paul goes to his internal battle with sin, he is using metaphors to explain the struggle. The laws in questions are sin and the law, but there is really only 1 law.

Isolating certain scriptures can fit a narrative of choice, but scriptures in context interprets scriptures. I have not introduced any other scriptures or doctrine other than Rom 7 in this post. My commentary is disposable but God's word remains.

Well lets acknowledged that the book of Romans is a total book and Paul did not write any chapters so I can use verses from Romans 8 to explain Romans 7 because its all a continuation and men added the separations.

Let me explain what I believe is the law of sin and death again. I dont think Paul is referring to any actual written law here. Its like how the law of gravity is what goes up must come down. The law of sin and death is simply the principle that one you sin you should die as stated in Rom 3:23. The Law of Spirit of life in Christ is the principle that one you walk in the spirit you shall have eternal life also explained in Rom 3:23.

Bob S · May 18, 2020

Soyeong said:
The Bible uses an extraordinary amount of parallel statements, which are two different ways of saying that same thing, so it is your interpretation that he was contrasting his commands with the Father's commands rather than using a parallel statement to equate them. Jesus set an example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so if you think that he was telling his disciples to do what he said and not what he did, that that makes him out to be a hypocrite. As his followers we are told to follow his example (1 John 2:6), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 11:1), so we are to follow both what he taught by word and what he taught by example, and there is not a disconnect between the two.

Of course Jesus didn't tell the disciples not to observe the laws given them by God at Sinai. They were all still under the Sinai covenant. We are obligated to keep the laws of this land until those laws are negated by new laws. The laws concerning the speed an automobile could travel during the Second World War was, can you imagine, 35 miles an hour. Now, in some states, 80 miles per hour is the law. Can you understand that Jesus lived under the Sinai covenant rules and once that covenant was replaced with the new covenant the laws changed? New priesthood, new laws. I really do not believe you understand that John in 1Jn 3 wrote that we are doing right if we believe in Jesus as our Savior and obey His command to love others as He loves us. All the ritual commands that Israel had to live under halted when the new covenant was ratified at Calvary. You are trying to live under a covenant that has expired and denying part of what Jesus gave His life. You deny that the gift of the Holy Spirit has replaced the guidance of the ten commandments, 2Cor 3:6-11 and dream up excuses for texts like Eph 2:15, Gal 3, 4, and 5. You twist the meaning of Col 2:16-17 so as to make it say something other that what is written. You tell us that indeed Jesus didn't fulfil all He came to do, Matt 5. You have to do all of this to appease your preexisting belief system. Believe me I know what is like to be told something that sounds like the truth only to find that it really doesn't stand up to what God wants us to understand. For me it was a devastating blow, I had put my all in the belief I had the truth. I now thank my Savior for revealing to me the real truth that it is not the works of the Sinai covenant that I must follow. It is all about believing and loving. I hope this will help.

The Law of Sin and Death

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