Is this monergism?

dms1972 said:

I want to ask about the following quote, and whether it indicates a monergistic view of regeneration.

"In the Presence, unless they will to remain separate, men are born anew. Moslems, Hindus, Hebrews who walk into the Presence and power of the Holy Spirit are quickly remade. They become Christians."

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You can't possibly ask that about such a short out-of-context quote. It's part of a passage condemning eclecticism and syncretism. It's saying that you can't be saved without becoming Christian.

But there's nothing there that lets you decide whether the author is monergist or not, although the words "unless they will" would probably have me betting "no."

I would say so because it is saying that unknowingly someone would be brought to God through grace, unless only they forcefully make it not so. Interesting quote, I'm somewhat torn. I think it is monergism overall because for someone with a reasonable heart, no matter their background, if they were simply neutral they would be brought to God (if he wills it as so)

dms1972 said:

It was those words that I was thinking about: "Unless they will to remain separate" and whether that disqualified it as monergism.

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Well, (1) as I said, you can't tell whether the author is monergist from this short quote. Also, (2) there are probably other problems with this particular author.

dms1972 said:

I have some difficulties with monergism, and please be patient and give me a opportunity to try and explain, at least as I understand it (which may need correction) because it seems to me to say those who are saved have no choice in it.

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Monergism would hold to a compatibilist view of free will. People reject God because they choose to reject God. But also, that God chooses to save some people, and indeed irresistibly saves them.

Romans 8:30: And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

dms1972 said:

I want to ask about the following quote, and whether it indicates a monergistic view of regeneration.

"In the Presence, unless they will to remain separate, men are born anew. Moslems, Hindus, Hebrews who walk into the Presence and power of the Holy Spirit are quickly remade. They become Christians."

Monergism or not?

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This quote comes from Leanne Payne associated with the Pastoral Care Ministry. A Charismatic Movement in the 1950s. She passed away in 2015.

“Payne founded Pastoral Care Ministries (PCM) in the early 1980s, which held healing conferences at Wheaton College and other locations nationally and internationally. She died at Windsor Park Manor in Wheaton, Illinois, where she was being treated for Parkinson’s disease. Payne is survived by her daughter, Deborah, three grandchildren, and four great grandchildren.”

Died: Leanne Payne, 82, Prominent Leader in Pastoral Care, Healing Movement

Author of seven books, she supported orientation change for gays and lesbians.

She graduated with a Masters from Wheaton College and was associated with that institution. Wheaton college was founded by Wesleyan Methodists. So no she would not be supporting monergism.

There’s a pay wall at the Christianity Today link. If you have a subscription you can read her full Obit and story. Quite a remarkable ministry she had of focusing on the healing of the soul by addressing traumatic events in the lives of Christians.

Many of the Christian counseling services today have their roots in the PCM ministry. Apparently before the LGBT lobby “convinced” people they could not be healed of same sex attraction, Payne and her associates apparently had very good success according to the article.

redleghunter said:

This quote comes from Leanne Payne associated with the Pastoral Care Ministry.

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Thought so.

redleghunter said:

So no she would not be supporting monergism.

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Thought not.

dms1972 said:

Thanks yes I agree it may not be fair to draw any conclusion based on this one quote and yes in the context she was talking about eclectism. By your knowledge I take it you knew it was from a book by Leanne Payne?

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I thought it might be.

dms1972 said:

I have been reading Abraham Kuyper's book The Work of the Holy Spirit, and he talks about regeneration, which he says is an "effapha", an opening of the ears and no one co-operates in that, then follows effectual calling which involves our harkening, its not purely passive, it involves our co-operation. Following that is conversion which also involves our co-operation.

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Abraham Kuyper is of course as solidly Reformed / Monergist / Calvinist as they come. That is, he believed in "Irresistible Grace."

Monergist theologians will often draw diagrams like this, to indicate the various things that God does as part of our salvation.

dms1972 said:

Payne's view was that Grace builds on nature, I think that would make her somewhat Thomist?

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Thomists are actually very, very close to Calvinists.

dms1972 said:

Thanks for the chart.

I think Kuyper locates regeneration before effectual calling. Regeneration opens the ears, so the person can hear God's call.

Payne's view was that Grace builds on nature, I think that would make her somewhat Thomist?

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This gem of a quote jumped out at me and I wanted to share.

“I answer that, It is fitting that God should predestine men. For all things are subject to His providence, as was shown above (I:22:2). Now it belongs to providence to direct things towards their end, as was also said (I:22:1 and I:22:2). The end towards which created things are directed by God is twofold; one which exceeds all proportion and faculty of created nature; and this end is life eternal, that consists in seeing God which is above the nature of every creature, as shown above (I:12:4). The other end, however, is proportionate to created nature, to which end created being can attain according to the power of its nature. Now if a thing cannot attain to something by the power of its nature, it must be directed thereto by another; thus, an arrow is directed by the archer towards a mark. Hence, properly speaking, a rational creature, capable of eternal life, is led towards it, directed, as it were, by God. The reason of that direction pre-exists in God; as in Him is the type of the order of all things towards an end, which we proved above to be providence. Now the type in the mind of the doer of something to be done, is a kind of pre-existence in him of the thing to be done. Hence the type of the aforesaid direction of a rational creature towards the end of life eternal is called predestination. For to destine, is to direct or send. Thus it is clear that predestination, as regards its objects, is a part of providence.”
On Reprobation St. Thomas adds,

“God does reprobate some. For it was said above (Article 1) that predestination is a part of providence. To providence, however, it belongs to permit certain defects in those things which are subject to providence, as was said above (I:22:2). Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. Thus, as predestination is a part of providence, in regard to those ordained to eternal salvation, so reprobation is a part of providence in regard to those who turn aside from that end. Hence reprobation implies not only foreknowledge, but also something more, as does providence, as was said above (I:22:1). Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin.”

Read more from St. Thomas’s Summa here.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

JM said:

This gem of a quote jumped out at me and I wanted to share.

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There's not a huge difference between Thomism and Calvinism. And Thomas's terminology of election and reprobation appears in the Canons of Dordt.