Works of Law

eleos1954 · Apr 24, 2020

Dkh587 said:
Romans 9:31-32

Think about it: God pleaded with the Israelites to trust him, and obey His laws, statutes and commandments, yet by common Christian logic, they did not attain righteousness because they sought righteousness through obeying Him?

They lost sight of what the earthly sanctuary system was about ... what it's purpose was and that was pointing to Jesus the Messiah to come. Rather they trusted in the system (the what) rather than the who (Jesus).

We should be mindful of that .... and not trust in a religious system. We are to trust in Jesus and Him alone.

HARK! · Apr 24, 2020

eleos1954 said:
We are to trust in Jesus and Him alone

Can you support that with scripture?

HARK! · Apr 24, 2020

nolidad said:
He fulfilled and thereby voided it!

Aren't we called to fulfill it as well?

(CLV) Ro 8:4
that the just requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who are not walking in accord with flesh, but in accord with spirit.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Didn't Yahshua say that the law was forever?

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Scott Husted · Apr 24, 2020

HARK! said:
The Judaeans we're well familiar with YHWH's Law (Torah), but they were also practicing Works of Law.

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Paul is the only one in the Bible to use this expression. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned 6 times in Galatians, and maybe 2 times in Romans.
Galatians 2:16, 3:2, 3:5, 3:10 Romans 3:27, 9:32

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah. Yahshua kept the Torah and called us to follow his example. Paul followed yahshua's example and called us to follow his example.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.
==========================================================

Here is what Paul says in Galatians 2 concerning works of law:

(CLV) Ga 2:16
having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall not flesh at all be justified.

But here is what Paul said in Romans 2 concerning law:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Now either Paul can't keep his story straight; or works of law is different than law.

==========================================================

What is Paul referring to in Galatians 3:10?

Galatians 3

10 For whoever are of works of law are under a curse, for it written that, Accursed is everyone who is not remaining in all things written in the scroll of the law to do them.

Deuteronomy 27

15 Cursed be the man who makes a carving or a molten image, an abhorrence to Yahweh, the work of an artificer's hands, and places it in concealment. Then all the people will respond and say:Amen!" 16 Cursed be the one dishonoring his father or his mother. Then all the people shall say:Amen! 17 Cursed be the one moving the boundary marker of his associate. Then all the people will say:Amen! 18 Cursed be the one causing the blind to err on the road. Then all the people will say:Amen! 19 Cursed be the one turning aside the judgment of the sojourner, the orphan or the widow. Then all the people will say:Amen!" 20 Cursed be the one lying with the wife of his father, for he exposes his father's hem. Then all the people will say:Amen!" 21 Cursed be the one lying with any beast. Then all the people will say:Amen! 22 Cursed be the one lying with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother. Then all the people will say:Amen!" 23 Cursed be the one lying with his sister-in-law. Then all the people will say:Amen! 24 Cursed be the one smiting his associate in concealment. Then all the people will say:Amen! 25 Cursed be the one taking a bribe to smite a soul of innocent blood. Then all the people will say:Amen! 26 Cursed be the one who is not performing all the words of this law to do them. Then all the people will say:Amen!

Certainly he is not saying that Yahshua died so that we are free to take part in all of the wickedness.

It's an internal thing not an outward thing ... one picture of this is Sarah using Hagar to fulfill the promise ... but it goes back to the beginning.

eleos1954 · Apr 24, 2020

HARK! said:
Can you support that with scripture?

Proverbs 3:5

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.

Psalm 28:7

The Lord is my strength and my shield; in him my heart trusts, and I am helped; my heart exults, and with my song I give thanks to him.

Psalm 9:10

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Psalm 37:4-6

Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him, and he will act. He will bring forth your righteousness as the light, and your justice as the noonday.

Psalm 37:5

Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him, and he will act.

Der Alte · Apr 24, 2020

HARK! said:
Aren't we called to fulfill it as well?
(CLV) Ro 8:4
that the just requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who are not walking in accord with flesh, but in accord with spirit.
(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.
Didn't Yahshua say that the law was forever?
(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Romans 8:3-7
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

HARK! · Apr 24, 2020

eleos1954 said:
Proverbs 3:5

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.

(CLV) Pr 3:5
Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, And do not lean to your own understanding.

eleos1954 said:
Psalm 28:7

The Lord is my strength and my shield; in him my heart trusts, and I am helped; my heart exults, and with my song I give thanks to him.

(CLV) Ps 28:7
Yahweh is my Strength and my Shield; In Him has my heart trusted, And I have been helped So +that my heart is |joyous, And fwith my song am I acclaiming Him.

eleos1954 said:
Psalm 9:10

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

(CLV) Ps 9:10
So those knowing Your Name shall trust in You, For You do not forsake those inquiring for You, O Yahweh.

eleos1954 said:
Psalm 37:4-6

Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him, and he will act. He will bring forth your righteousness as the light, and your justice as the noonday.

(CLV) Ps 37:4
Find pleasure in Yahweh, And He shall give you the requests of your heart.

(CLV) Ps 37:5
Hand over your way onto Yahweh; Trust on Him, and He shall do it.

(CLV) Ps 37:6
So He will make your righteousness shine forth like the light, And your right judgment like the noonday sun.

Case of mistaken identity on all counts.

HARK! · Apr 24, 2020

Der Alter said:
Romans 8:3-7
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Was that a yes or a no?

Aren't we called to fulfill it as well?

(CLV) Ro 8:4
that the just requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who are not walking in accord with flesh, but in accord with spirit.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Didn't Yahshua say that the law was forever?

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

eleos1954 · Apr 24, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Pr 3:5
Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, And do not lean to your own understanding.

(CLV) Ps 28:7
Yahweh is my Strength and my Shield; In Him has my heart trusted, And I have been helped So +that my heart is |joyous, And fwith my song am I acclaiming Him.

(CLV) Ps 9:10
So those knowing Your Name shall trust in You, For You do not forsake those inquiring for You, O Yahweh.

(CLV) Ps 37:4
Find pleasure in Yahweh, And He shall give you the requests of your heart.

(CLV) Ps 37:5
Hand over your way onto Yahweh; Trust on Him, and He shall do it.

(CLV) Ps 37:6
So He will make your righteousness shine forth like the light, And your right judgment like the noonday sun.

Case of mistaken identity on all counts.

Jesus IS God!

Jesus is recognized as both Yahweh and Elohim in the prophecy in Isaiah 40:3: “Prepare the way of the Lord [Yahweh]; make straight in the desert a highway for our God [Elohim].” This verse was written in reference to John the Baptist preparing for the coming of Christ (as confirmed in John 1:23) and represents one of the strongest affirmations of Christ’s deity in the Old Testament. In Isaiah 9:6, we likewise read a prophecy of Christ with a singular variant (El) of Elohim: “And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God [El], Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

HARK! · Apr 24, 2020

eleos1954 said:
Jesus is recognized as both Yahweh

Nonsense.

When Yahshua was asked the greatest precept; his reply:

(CLV) Mt 22:36
"Teacher, what is the great precept in the law?"

(CLV) Mt 22:37
Now He averred to him, "You shall be loving the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with your whole comprehension.

Yahshua was quoting the Shema from the Torah:

(CLV) Dt 6:5
So you will love YHWH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your intensity.

Yahshua was telling you to love his father with all your heart.

(CLV) Ro 15:6
that, with one accord, with one mouth, you may be glorifying the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

pasifika · Apr 24, 2020

HARK! said:
Was that a yes or a no?

Aren't we called to fulfill it as well?

(CLV) Ro 8:4
that the just requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who are not walking in accord with flesh, but in accord with spirit. Romans 8:3

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Didn't Yahshua say that the law was forever?

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Hello Hark, is Not ourselves that fulfilled that Righteousness but God who fulfilled it in us...Romans 8:3

pasifika · Apr 24, 2020

HARK! said:
Nonsense.

When Yahshua was asked the greatest precept; his reply:

(CLV) Mt 22:36
"Teacher, what is the great precept in the law?"

(CLV) Mt 22:37
Now He averred to him, "You shall be loving the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with your whole comprehension.

Yahshua was quoting the Shema from the Torah:

(CLV) Dt 6:5
So you will love YHWH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your intensity.

Yahshua was telling you to love his father with all your heart.

(CLV) Ro 15:6
that, with one accord, with one mouth, you may be glorifying the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 1:1-2...In the beginning was the WORD, and the Word was with God and the Word was God...
There are two beings describe in this verse..

Verse 14...The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us...

HARK! · Apr 24, 2020

pasifika said:
Hello Hark, is Not ourselves that fulfilled that Righteousness but God who fulfilled it in us...Romans 8:3

Hi Pasifika.

Verse 4 says the law is to be fulfilled in us.

Ro 8:4
that the just requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who are not walking in accord with flesh, but in accord with spirit

It doesn't say anything about righteousness.

Verse 3 says Yahshua condemns sin so that the law can be fulfilled in us.

What is sin? Transgression of the law. Yahshua condemns your sin so that the law may be fulfilled in you.

(CLV) Ro 8:3
For what was impossible to the law, in which it was infirm through the flesh, did God, -sending His own Son in the likeness of sin's flesh and concerning sin, He condemns sin in the flesh,

HARK! · Apr 24, 2020

pasifika said:
John 1:1-2...In the beginning was the WORD, and the Word was with God and the Word was God...
There are two beings describe in this verse..

Verse 14...The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us...

And?

pasifika · Apr 24, 2020

HARK! said:
Hi Pasifika.

Verse 4 says the law is to be fulfilled in us.

Ro 8:4
that the just requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who are not walking in accord with flesh, but in accord with spirit

It doesn't say anything about righteousness.

Verse 3 says Yahshua condemns sin so that the law can be fulfilled in us.

What is sin? Transgression of the law. Yahshua condemns your sin so that the law may be fulfilled in you.

(CLV) Ro 8:3
For what was impossible to the law, in which it was infirm through the flesh, did God, -sending His own Son in the likeness of sin's flesh and concerning sin, He condemns sin in the flesh,

Is not the law but it

HARK! said:
Hi Pasifika.

Verse 4 says the law is to be fulfilled in us.

Ro 8:4
that the just requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who are not walking in accord with flesh, but in accord with spirit

It doesn't say anything about righteousness.

Verse 3 says Yahshua condemns sin so that the law can be fulfilled in us.

What is sin? Transgression of the law. Yahshua condemns your sin so that the law may be fulfilled in you.

(CLV) Ro 8:3
For what was impossible to the law, in which it was infirm through the flesh, did God, -sending His own Son in the likeness of sin's flesh and concerning sin, He condemns sin in the flesh,

Is the Righteous Requirement of the law Romans 8:4

eleos1954 · Apr 24, 2020

HARK! said:
Nonsense.

When Yahshua was asked the greatest precept; his reply:

(CLV) Mt 22:36
"Teacher, what is the great precept in the law?"

(CLV) Mt 22:37
Now He averred to him, "You shall be loving the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with your whole comprehension.

Yahshua was quoting the Shema from the Torah:

(CLV) Dt 6:5
So you will love YHWH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your intensity.

Yahshua was telling you to love his father with all your heart.

(CLV) Ro 15:6
that, with one accord, with one mouth, you may be glorifying the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Grasp the Trinity

Christians worship the one and true living God. This God is Father, Son, and Spirit. But this one God has chosen to reveal himself to sinful humans by means of the incarnation of the Son, Jesus Christ. When Jesus became a man, he did not become a god, but God, the Son, became Jesus a Jewish man. When Christians worship Jesus, we worship Yahweh. When Christians serve Jesus, we serve Yahweh. When Christians wholly devote their lives to Jesus, we wholly devote our lives to Yahweh. May God help Christians to worship Jesus with urgency, joy, and passion, because he is Yahweh.

Dkh587 · Apr 24, 2020

expos4ever said:
I challenge you to name one scholar who believes this.

Please show any other writer in the Bible that called the Law a “wall of partition”.

I don’t need scholars - I accept Paul & his authority.

Dkh587 · Apr 24, 2020

expos4ever said:
Yes, and to suggest that this is a physical wall is frankly ridiculous. Look at the text:

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances,

Paul clearly identifies this barrier as "the Law of Commandments".

Not a physical wall.

I’m not sure why you insist on the law being a “dividing wall of partition”. It logically makes sense that Paul is referring to a literal wall or barrier. Nobody in the Scriptures ever called the Law a wall, or a barrier.

Gentiles were always allowed to live in and amongst Israel. The Law did not keep them out.

expos4ever · Apr 24, 2020

HARK! said:
Deuteronomy 27

15 Cursed be the man who makes a carving or a molten image, an abhorrence to Yahweh, the work of an artificer's hands, and places it in concealment. Then all the people will respond and say:Amen!" 16 Cursed be the one dishonoring his father or his mother. Then all the people shall say:Amen! 17 Cursed be the one moving the boundary marker of his associate. Then all the people will say:Amen!................etc. Then all the people will say:Amen!

Certainly he is not saying that Yahshua died so that we are free to take part in all of the wickedness.

Of course, no one is saying that we are "free to take part in all of the wickedness".

However, if you are implying that the Law of Moses is still in force, you have a lot more work to do. This is because a behaviour "X" that is ruled as sin by the Law of Moses can still be sin even if the Law is retired, or set aside. This is a really obvious point, but I will illustrate anyway. Suppose there is a law "thou shalt not kick puppies". Then, for whatever reason, this law is struck down. Does that mean that it is OK to kick puppies? I trust I needn't explain further. Besides, we are told repeatedly by Paul that the Holy Spirit replace the Law.

HARK! · Apr 24, 2020

expos4ever said:
we are told repeatedly by Paul that the Holy Spirit replace the Law.

I don't know where you're getting that; but Yahshua only has to tell me once.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Works of Law

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