LDS James 1:5

BigDaddy4 said:

The key word in "it is by grace that we are saved after all that we can do" is AFTER. Mormon theology is that AFTER you do all you can do, AFTER you do all these good works, then you may be saved (and even then there is no assurance of what "kingdom" a mormon would end up in). But not before that.

The Christian view is "it is by grace that we are saved". AFTER that, God has some good works for us to do according to His will for our lives.

This debate is often centered around Ephesians 2:8-9. But in actuality "saved by grace" in verse 8 is a repeat of verse 5. Verse 5 shoots down all the "after all we can do" and "keep the commandments to be saved" because, not after all we can do, but "even when we were dead in transgressions" we are saved by God's mercy and grace. BEFORE you try to "do all you can do", BEFORE you try to "keep the commandments", God is there.

Ephesians 2:4-5
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

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I can't understand why you think you need to be saved before you can do good works. I believe that people know right from wrong and can choose to do what is right without being told.

He is the way said:

I can't understand why you think you need to be saved before you can do good works. I believe that people know right from wrong and can choose to do what is right without being told.

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You take God out of the equation as in He desides what you are to do in these good works,

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them

We are created in Christ [as a "new creation"] for good works
Other wise our pretend righteousness from our so -called "good works" become like this verse:

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

Jamesone5 said:

You take God out of the equation as in He desides what you are to do in these good works,

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them

We are created in Christ [as a "new creation"] for good works
Other wise our pretend righteousness from our so -called "good works" become like this verse:

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

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Did you see the word saved in either of those verses? God said this of Job:

(Old Testament | Job 1:1)

1 THERE was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job was NOT perfect and upright because he was saved, nor were his works filthy rags. This is what Job did:

(Old Testament | Job 29:12 - 16)

12 Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him.
13 The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.
14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.
15 I was eyes to the blind, and feet was I to the lame.
16 I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.

dzheremi said:

And that ^, my Mormon friends, is how you don't have to argue against good works (which again, no Christian does; or at least I've never seen it) to recognize that it is by God that all good things are done.

In his second epistle to the Corinthians, the holy St. Paul writes:

For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me. And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.​

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The apostle knows, as all the followers of the true God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- one in essence) know, that not only does he not "do all that he can do" (beyond that which he was already doing, of course), but that it is in his weakness that the Lord perfects him, by His grace and not by the apostle's boasting.

If you are relying on yourself, even if God comes in at some point to fill in the gaps of what you cannot do, you will always fail. Not because you're not trying, or because you're a bad person, or because you didn't do your best in 'keeping the commandments', but because you have the fundamental relationship between God and man exactly backwards.

It's not "after all that I can do", and it never has been. It ought to be "anything and everything I can do is by the grace of God alone; I am of no consequence but that He should choose to work through me." The traditional churches which Mormonism openly hates make this explicit in their pre-communion prayers, which so far as I have seen having been Catholic and now being Orthodox all have a very similar tone of contrition and hopefulness: "Lord, I know I am not worthy to have you enter into my house, but only say the word and I shall be healed" or an equivalent petition.

Saying "after all that you can do" puts you first. You're not first. God alone is first. You can only do anything because of Him, and not because He's your buddy and supporting you like a football coach or a boxing manager or something, or otherwise doing the spiritual equivalent of covering your rent in the highest level of Mormon heaven when you're a little light on good works that month, but because He is the creator and sustainer and governor of everything that is. You can certainly draw strength from Him, but then it is not your strength, is it? He is the source of everything any of us have, and everything that we are. It doesn't seem like Mormonism's gods are like that, being as they were at one time fallible men before their 'exaltation'.

The vast difference in theology creates these kinds of problems for Mormons to understand Who God is. I pray that in the light of the risen Christ (because Christ is risen!) that the Mormons here and everywhere will sincerely seek Him and find Him as He is, for the Father is seeking such to worship Him in spirit and in truth.

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You quoted: "For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.

So why do Christians bost saying "I am saved."?

You said: "The apostle knows, as all the followers of the true God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- one in essence)....

Yet Jesus said they are one in glory and perfection.

You said: "It's not "after all that I can do", and it never has been."

(New Testament | 1 Peter 5:6 - 10)

6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

(New Testament | James 2:24)

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

He is the way said:

Did you see the word saved in either of those verses? God said this of Job:

(Old Testament | Job 1:1)

1 THERE was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job was NOT perfect and upright because he was saved, nor were his works filthy rags. This is what Job did:

(Old Testament | Job 29:12 - 16)

12 Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him.
13 The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.
14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.
15 I was eyes to the blind, and feet was I to the lame.
16 I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.

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Gee, we are living in NT times and Job is of course OT.

Remember Christ saves.

Jamesone5 said:

Gee, we are living in NT times and Job is of course OT.

Remember Christ saves.

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I believe the whole Bible, not only the New Testament. Does God speak to Mathew, Luke, etc and not to Job and Abraham? Were their deeds filthy rags?

He is the way said:

You quoted: "For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.

So why do Christians bost saying "I am saved."?

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Because they're not listening to St. Paul, I suppose.

You said: "The apostle knows, as all the followers of the true God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- one in essence)....

Yet Jesus said they are one in glory and perfection.

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What do you mean "yet"? As though saying they are one "in glory and perfection" is somehow contradicting the oneness of their divinity?

You said: "It's not "after all that I can do", and it never has been."

(New Testament | 1 Peter 5:6 - 10)

6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

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Not found: "After all that you can do". I don't understand how the part you've bolded even implies that. Is suffering for a while a good work?

(New Testament | James 2:24)

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

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Still not "after all that you can do". In fact, looking at it in context is even worse for Mormonism:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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The point is that believing intellectually is not a substitute for living the faith, so there can be no such division as is posited whereby one can say "You have faith, but I have works." It's not an either/or situation -- it's both/and ("faith was working together with his works", as the NKJV puts it above), and again what is preached against elsewhere is not good works themselves, but viewing them as being salvific.

This is especially bad for Mormonism because the things it counts as "believing God" and showing it by works (e.g., doing temple work) are alien to the scriptures and to the faith as a whole, and so don't really fit faith-strengthening works, either. It'd be like if I said God told me that every Tuesday I have to have a bowl of ice cream while singing the old Oscar Meyer Bologna jingle. I could keep a perfect record of doing that, but since God obviously never gave me such a ridiculous thing to do, doing it not only doesn't perfect anything, it actually shows that the god I am supposing to have communicated with is not the true God, which means that I am performing false works in a false paradigm for a false god, so what does being able to say "But the scriptures say XYZ!" really do? Will I be rewarded for quoting the scriptures and saying I believe in them while setting up an obviously false system of worship? I don't think so. As the scriptures above say, even the demons believe -- and tremble!

Peter1000 said:

We believe just by believing in Christ you will be saved in heaven. Same as you. But we go one step farther

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And there is the mormon forked tongue double-speak. "We're the same but..." Why can't you just admit your theology is a different add-on theology? That would be more honest and believable.

Peter1000 said:

Matthew teaches us that their are "great" rewards in heaven. Does that imply that there are "not so great" rewards in heaven. And could those rewards be given based on your good works here on earth? How many scriptures say you will be judged according to your works? Many, and they refer to your reward and station in heaven whether it be "great" or "not great".

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Your "great" / "not great" debate is your own making. The Bible implies no such thing. Maybe you should ponder this:
“Many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first” (Matthew 19:30).

He is the way said:

I can't understand why you think you need to be saved before you can do good works. I believe that people know right from wrong and can choose to do what is right without being told.

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You can do all the "good works" you want, saved or not. They just don't affect your salvation. And they may or may not be the "good works" that Christ wants us to do. Rather, they may be your own "good works", for your purpose, not Christ's, for his purpose.

He is the way said:

I believe the whole Bible, not only the New Testament. Does God speak to Mathew, Luke, etc and not to Job and Abraham? Were their deeds filthy rags?

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If those deeds were not with God in mind but rather for self, they were/are these filthy rags. Same now as before. You mentioned Abraham and God certainly made this provision for him

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

And Job's example is one of endurance

James 5:11
Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.

Once again "works" come into play with Jesus Christ. If you truly Believe in True Christ, the results would be these good works or the fruit of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

As a member of a church that bears Christ's Name. I would think you would realize that basic understanding

BigDaddy4 said:

You can do all the "good works" you want, saved or not. They just don't affect your salvation. And they may or may not be the "good works" that Christ wants us to do. Rather, they may be your own "good works", for your purpose, not Christ's, for his purpose.

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Who had the better works according to Jesus Christ, the non Christian Samaritans, or those who professed to be Christians? We are judged according to our actual works and desires to help others, not by who we think we are.

Jamesone5 said:

If those deeds were not with God in mind but rather for self, they were/are these filthy rags. Same now as before. You mentioned Abraham and God certainly made this provision for him

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

And Job's example is one of endurance

James 5:11
Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.

Once again "works" come into play with Jesus Christ. If you truly Believe in True Christ, the results would be these good works or the fruit of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

As a member of a church that bears Christ's Name. I would think you would realize that basic understanding

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Jesus gave us a deeper meaning about works when He said:

(New Testament | Matthew 25:40)

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

He is the way said:

Who had the better works according to Jesus Christ, the non Christian Samaritans, or those who professed to be Christians? We are judged according to our actual works and desires to help others, not by who we think we are.

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They did not use the term "Christian" or even non-Christian when Christ used the example of the good Samaritan. So your point starts out very moot.

He is the way said:

Jesus gave us a deeper meaning about works when He said:

(New Testament | Matthew 25:40)

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

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And are you implying that I do not follow this verse, which is very much in my Bible?

dzheremi said:

Because they're not listening to St. Paul, I suppose.



What do you mean "yet"? As though saying they are one "in glory and perfection" is somehow contradicting the oneness of their divinity?



Not found: "After all that you can do". I don't understand how the part you've bolded even implies that. Is suffering for a while a good work?



Still not "after all that you can do". In fact, looking at it in context is even worse for Mormonism:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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The point is that believing intellectually is not a substitute for living the faith, so there can be no such division as is posited whereby one can say "You have faith, but I have works." It's not an either/or situation -- it's both/and ("faith was working together with his works", as the NKJV puts it above), and again what is preached against elsewhere is not good works themselves, but viewing them as being salvific.

This is especially bad for Mormonism because the things it counts as "believing God" and showing it by works (e.g., doing temple work) are alien to the scriptures and to the faith as a whole, and so don't really fit faith-strengthening works, either. It'd be like if I said God told me that every Tuesday I have to have a bowl of ice cream while singing the old Oscar Meyer Bologna jingle. I could keep a perfect record of doing that, but since God obviously never gave me such a ridiculous thing to do, doing it not only doesn't perfect anything, it actually shows that the god I am supposing to have communicated with is not the true God, which means that I am performing false works in a false paradigm for a false god, so what does being able to say "But the scriptures say XYZ!" really do? Will I be rewarded for quoting the scriptures and saying I believe in them while setting up an obviously false system of worship? I don't think so. As the scriptures above say, even the demons believe -- and tremble!

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You said: "What do you mean "yet"? As though saying they are one "in glory and perfection" is somehow contradicting the oneness of their divinity?"

As I have stated many times Jesus Christ, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are NOT one in essence, they are one in glory and perfection as Jesus stated:

(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Therefore they are one in glory and perfection just as Jesus said.

Jamesone5 said:

They did not use the term "Christian" or even non-Christian when Christ used the example of the good Samaritan. So your point starts out very moot.

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Are you saying that the Samaritans were Christian? Or you saying that their works were filthy rags? God knows the heart. He knows our true intentions whether they are of LOVE or whether they are selfish.

Jamesone5 said:

And are you implying that I do not follow this verse, which is very much in my Bible?

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No.

He is the way said:

As I have stated many times Jesus Christ, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are NOT one in essence

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You can state it all you want. You're still wrong.

Therefore they are one in glory and perfection just as Jesus said.

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Which doesn't touch their divinity one way or another, so again I don't see any reason to be against this. But let's play along for the sake of argument and say that this is all that Jesus ever meant when He talked about His relation to the Father.

How does this "one in glory and perfection" idea fit with St. Paul's earlier quoted passage:

"For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me."

Following the Mormon reading that the apostles were to be glorious and perfect in the exact same manner as Jesus and God the Father are (so that John 17:22 is a call not just to imitation, but to sameness), you don't think that would be cause for others to think the apostles above what they are seen to be? What would be the point in glorying in infirmities that you don't have, if you're as perfect as God?

And anyway, we might wonder then what makes God actually divine in Mormonism, if this is all it means. To be "united in glory and perfection" in a manner that shuts out anything essential about God cheapens the unity into being a matter of the evaluation of attributed qualities -- something that literally anyone can claim because there's nothing stopping them. In other words, if God is God because of His "glory" and "perfection" (not because He is divine in essence), but we can also have these in exactly the same manner and to exactly the same degree as He has them, then in what way are we not effectively God? (Not gods.) Why or how is God the Father God the Father, and why do Mormons recognize Him as such, if there is nothing truly unique to Him that cannot be possessed of literally everyone else?

It's a weird theological point to make, seeing as how it has basically no theology in it.

dzheremi said:

You can state it all you want. You're still wrong.



Which doesn't touch their divinity one way or another, so again I don't see any reason to be against this. But let's play along for the sake of argument and say that this is all that Jesus ever meant when He talked about His relation to the Father.

How does this "one in glory and perfection" idea fit with St. Paul's earlier quoted passage:

"For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me."

Following the Mormon reading that the apostles were to be glorious and perfect in the exact same manner as Jesus and God the Father are (so that John 17:22 is a call not just to imitation, but to sameness), you don't think that would be cause for others to think the apostles above what they are seen to be? What would be the point in glorying in infirmities that you don't have, if you're as perfect as God?

And anyway, we might wonder then what makes God actually divine in Mormonism, if this is all it means. To be "united in glory and perfection" in a manner that shuts out anything essential about God cheapens the unity into being a matter of the evaluation of attributed qualities -- something that literally anyone can claim because there's nothing stopping them. In other words, if God is God because of His "glory" and "perfection" (not because He is divine in essence), but we can also have these in exactly the same manner and to exactly the same degree as He has them, then in what way are we not effectively God? (Not gods.) Why or how is God the Father God the Father, and why do Mormons recognize Him as such, if there is nothing truly unique to Him that cannot be possessed of literally everyone else?

It's a weird theological point to make, seeing as how it has basically no theology in it.

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We all have to humble ourselves and become as little children submissive and willing to do everything the Father gives us to do:

(New Testament | Matthew 18:3 - 7)

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 ¶ Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

(New Testament | 1 John 3:7 - 11)

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 3:18 - 19)

18 For behold he judgeth, and his judgment is just; and the infant perisheth not that dieth in his infancy; but men drink damnation to their own souls except they humble themselves and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Jesus also took flesh upon Himself and was humble and submissive to the Father:

(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 15)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

He is the way said:

We all have to humble ourselves and become as little children submissive and willing to do everything the Father gives us to do

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This doesn't answer my questions at all.

Jesus also took flesh upon Himself and was humble and submissive to the Father

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The entire reason Jesus taking flesh from St. Mary is even noteworthy in the first place is because HE IS GOD. It's nothing that a man is a man.

But Mormonism, which teaches that Jesus Christ is not God, cannot have any such event as the incarnation, because your 'God the Father' figure is already incarnate (he already has a physical body), so I don't even know what you think you're saying by mentioning the incarnation right now.