Catholic Cardinal guilty of child sexual assault

creslaw · Apr 7, 2020

Heavenhome said:
But never was it declared that he was not guilty as the jury found.

Maybe "acquitted" by the court.

But God is the true judge and praise be to Him that the truth is laid bare and true justice will be done.
I state categorically here that I believe the victims.

I believe them

And that is what has for too long been denied them.
Not only that but I pray with all my heart that they do not turn against God for whom these monsters said they were representing.

Do you believe Kathy Sherriff's claim that Bill Shorten raped her when she was 16?

Zoii · Apr 7, 2020

The High Court has fulfilled its role. Its there to scrutinize our legal processes. It's found there was insufficient evidence to sustain a conviction because there were enough grounds for reasonable doubt.

In Australia and other nations using the British system of justice, we prefer to see a guilty man walk free than convict an innocent man. Therefore there is a burden on the prosecution to ensure there is no reasonable doubt.

I mention all this because this is a two-sided case. Either Pell was innocent and the man claiming to be sexually assaulted as a youth was lying for reasons unknown, OR Pell was guilty and the passage of time, blurred memories, and the fact that it comes down to one person's word against another results in an incapacity to convict without some degree of doubt.

None of us knows which one was telling the truth and who is a blank-faced liar. But Pell and his accuser do. Some of you have utmost faith in the behaviours of the Catholic clergy - Others like myself, find it incredulous that a mentally competent man would subject himself to the harrowing scrutiny that results when seeking police assistance for a historical rape case, for any other reason than it being true.

chevyontheriver · Apr 7, 2020

zippy2006 said:
Acquitted.

Uh huh. Acquitted.

I wonder if those who called us pedophile enablers will now, in light of the unanimous ruling of the Australian Supreme Court, start calling all of the Australian supreme court justices pedophile enablers too?

Zoii · Apr 7, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
Uh huh. Acquitted.

I wonder if those who called us pedophile enablers will now, in light of the unanimous ruling of the Australian Supreme Court, start calling all of the Australian supreme court justices pedophile enablers too?

Chevvy - the court is there to determine if there is enough evidence to warrant a conviction. It is not there to determine innocence. There is a clear distinction.

Paedophile enabling has, according to the Royal Commission, been absolutely rampant within the various institutions of the Catholic church. Its been additionally aided and abetted by many of its practitioners who have actually attacked those daring to accuse their beloved priest.

I should add it is not just the Catholic church, albeit they are by far the worst offenders. The Royal Commission found widespread abuses in all religious institutions.

The fact is, You and I have zero idea. Either Pell is innocent and his accusers are lying - OR Pell is. Only Pell and his accusers know. But from Australia's perspective, he is free of his convictions. He is neither pronounced innocent nor guilty; but the decision that there was enough evidence to warrant a conviction by the district and supreme courts, has been overturned by the High Court, and has ended the matter.

If Pell was innocent I regret the suffering he endured.
If Pell was guilty then my heart goes to his victims and may Pell rot in hell.

creslaw · Apr 7, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
Uh huh. Acquitted.

I wonder if those who called us pedophile enablers will now, in light of the unanimous ruling of the Australian Supreme Court, start calling all of the Australian supreme court justices pedophile enablers too?

Some people are just too blinded by their abhorrence of child abuse to be able to see the issue clearly. The legal system failed to function according to established practice and the Australian High Court set it right in a unanimous 7-0 acquittal. Thank God.

chevyontheriver · Apr 7, 2020

Zoii said:
Chevvy - the court is there to determine if there is enough evidence to warrant a conviction. It is not there to determine innocence. There is a clear distinction.

Paedophile enabling has, according to the Royal Commission, been absolutely rampant within the various institutions of the Catholic church. Its been additionally aided and abetted by many of its practitioners who have actually attacked those daring to accuse their beloved priest.

I should add it is not just the Catholic church, albeit they are by far the worst offenders. The Royal Commission found widespread abuses in all religious institutions.

The fact is, You and I have zero idea. Either Pell is innocent and his accusers are lying - OR Pell is. Only Pell and his accusers know. But from Australia's perspective, he is free of his convictions. He is neither pronounced innocent nor guilty; but the decision that there was enough evidence to warrant a conviction by the district and supreme courts, has been overturned by the High Court, and has ended the matter.

If Pell was innocent I regret the suffering he endured.
If Pell was guilty then my heart goes to his victims and may Pell rot in hell.

You Australians have a different standard of justice than I was raised on, where you were innocent until proven guilty. Your system seems to be guilty even if acquitted. And it does seem you are willing to call your Supremes pedophile enablers.

Australia is a different place.

Paidiske · Apr 7, 2020

I think it is not too strong to say that Australia is traumatised, particularly after the Royal Commission.

Zoii · Apr 7, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
You Australians have a different standard of justice than I was raised on, where you were innocent until proven guilty. Your system seems to be guilty even if acquitted. And it does seem you are willing to call your Supremes pedophile enablers.

Australia is a different place.

Oh that was a childish response - Noone has talked about the courts being enablers - thats your rather childish antics and as for labelling a country - that's rather American.

chevyontheriver · Apr 7, 2020

Zoii said:
Oh that was a childish response - Noone has talked about the courts being enablers - thats your rather childish antics and as for labelling a country - that's rather American.

I think you should review this whole thread and let me know how childish I am. You called everyone who did not agree with Pell's guilt a pedophile enabler.

Michie · Apr 7, 2020

Oh boy... sweet dreams all. :wave:

Zoii · Apr 7, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
justice than I was raised on, where you were innocent until proven guilty.

That is the standard of the courts of law based on British jurispudence. That is precisely the sytem adopted here.

A finding of not guilty and presumption of innocence by the courts is sacrosanct.
As to whether one IS actually guilty or innocent, is another question that is known by those accused and those accusing. All the more so in historical cases of sexual assault.

Zoii · Apr 7, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
I think you should review this whole thread and let me know how childish I am. You called everyone who did not agree with Pell's guilt a pedophile enabler.

Happy for you to show that quote "paedophile enabler". I've always supported the court's findings - He was found guilty in District court - so I called him a paedophile. He was found guilty in a Court of Appeal - So I called him guilty of paedophilia. Now it's been overturned I acknowledge there lacked conclusive evidence.

But since you are sensitive - is this something you have been doing? Are you feeling this way because you have attacked accusers? Or is it just this particular case and its outcome.

I for one can see its outcome leaves neither you or I knowing the truth. Its the end of legal proceedings and Pell's ordeal is at an end. If you are happy to say his accusers were just liars, then many I'm sure will agree with you.

I though acknowledge that only Pell and his accusers know.

Zoii · Apr 7, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
ou called everyone who did not agree with Pell's guilt a pedophile enabler.

I am waiting for you to show where I ever said such a thing and retract it.

It does nothing to your credibility and esteem, to make appalling comments like this and not even apologize for the false accusation.

Ive attempted to give measured responses in this thread - reflecting the courts decision. In terms of bias I acknowledged a tendency to believe victims. But Ive always been realistic about the difficulties in historical sexual assault cases.

chevyontheriver · Apr 8, 2020

Zoii said:
I am waiting for you to show where I ever said such a thing and retract it.

It does nothing to your credibility and esteem, to make appalling comments like this and not even apologize for the false accusation.

Ive attempted to give measured responses in this thread - reflecting the courts decision. In terms of bias I acknowledged a tendency to believe victims. But Ive always been realistic about the difficulties in historical sexual assault cases.

Just go back and review the whole thread. You said a variety of things, some accusatory, a few irenic, many about how you have to believe the victims. One particular post where I asked whether believing victims meant that innocent people had to go to jail. You were very critical of me on that. The whole exchange in almost 100 posts then was critical of anyone who dared to doubt the guilt of cardinal Pell. Not just you, but the rest of the crew who were pleased at Pell's conviction. Because the victims. Pell is guilty or else we disrespect the victims, so shame on us all for disrespecting the victims. Well, Pell has been victimized here, at least for those who accept innocent until proven guilty. I asked that the rush to glee at least await the final appeal. Now you have it.

creslaw · Apr 8, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
You Australians have a different standard of justice than I was raised on, where you were innocent until proven guilty. Your system seems to be guilty even if acquitted. And it does seem you are willing to call your Supremes pedophile enablers.

Australia is a different place.

I think it is more because Victoria is a very Left wing state. The Victorian Police Force actively recruited complainants (and there is a criminal compensation payment in Victoria up to $70K) and the jury was chosen from people who had been inundated with media attacking Cardinal Pell for years before his trial.

Australian courts generally operate on "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt". It is unfortunate that in this case, established legal procedures were ignored and evidence was discarded in favour of a "ring of truth" argument. I am hopeful that the resounding High Court decision will modify the behaviour of those willing to jettison proven legal principles.

creslaw · Apr 8, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
Just go back and review the whole thread. You said a variety of things, some accusatory, a few irenic, many about how you have to believe the victims. One particular post where I asked whether believing victims meant that innocent people had to go to jail. You were very critical of me on that. The whole exchange in almost 100 posts then was critical of anyone who dared to doubt the guilt of cardinal Pell. Not just you, but the rest of the crew who were pleased at Pell's conviction. Because the victims. Pell is guilty or else we disrespect the victims, so shame on us all for disrespecting the victims. Well, Pell has been victimized here, at least for those who accept innocent until proven guilty. I asked that the rush to glee at least await the final appeal. Now you have it.

The "always believe the victim" is often distorted by those with a particular ideological bent. We should affirm the feelings a person claiming abuse but it would be naive to accept everything they say as truth. Not even in the Cardinal Pell case did the complainant's legal team claim that all their client's memories were accurate. It is possible to convey to a complainant that we believe their abuse is real without confirming that every detail is correct.

The hypocrisy of many here in Australia who chant the "always believe the victim" mantra astounds me because they were quite willing to effectively vote for a man to be Prime Minister of this country who has an allegation of rape hanging over his head ... an allegation that the Victorian Police who pursued Cardinal Pell have refused to investigate.

chevyontheriver · Apr 8, 2020

creslaw said:
Australian courts generally operate on "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt". It is unfortunate that in this case, established legal procedures were ignored and evidence was discarded in favour of a "ring of truth" argument. I am hopeful that the resounding High Court decision will modify the behaviour of those willing to jettison proven legal principles.

I hope you are right. But it does seem that there is a real strand of thought that one has to prove innocence, and that if the court does not declare you innocent then you really are guilty but merely acquitted. As if 'acquitted' and 'not guilty' were concepts a world apart.

The Pell case was one of unimpeached testimony that Pell couldn't have done it, ignored by people who had already decided to believe the victims no matter what. They don't even say 'alleged victims' as if victimhood is just obvious. This thread is witness enough that such a way of thinking is pervasive. Pell will be spat upon if not beaten, and perhaps beaten to death or knifed or shot, if he ever walks the streets like a free man should be able to do. Maybe I'm just making that up. We'll see.

Paidiske · Apr 8, 2020

If Cardinal Pell gets spat upon in the street, or even assaulted, it won't be more than happens to many clergy here simply for being clergy.

Will he be at risk in the community? Possibly. If I were him, I'd seriously consider very quiet retirement in some sort of remote monastery.

Michie · Apr 8, 2020

The Only Reasonable Verdict Against Cardinal Pell Was Acquittal

Lost4words · Apr 8, 2020

Too many are quick to judge. They see 'Catholic Clergy' and immediately that person is guilty.

In the end, God will be the judge on those that have gravely sinned.

Catholic Cardinal guilty of child sexual assault

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