Can You Be a Christian and Deny the Trinity?

Gregory Thompson · Mar 6, 2020

☦Marius☦ said:
You are criticizing Paul and the Apostles as much as the early church. Just look at the first council of Jerusalem in acts. They all settled on an opinion, and those who did not were no longer allowed within the assembly. Theorize and look for solutions all you want. But the Apostles made it clear.

I appreciate the conversation Marius, I'll keep examining what this evil really is, since I have to experience it first hand. Why it is greater in churches than out in the street is really beyond me. I get the sense that maybe the church isn't aware of this dimension of sanctification perhaps? It's hard to say, maybe next decade.

Need answers · Mar 6, 2020

☦Marius☦ said:
You can believe it or not, but Antioch was the head of the church at that time and Ignatius was hand picked by the apostles and other elders to take that role and lead. We are commanded by Paul to follow the Church elders and obey their teachings that they have passed down.

You are correct. But the term catholic does imply unity in faith, which those outside the apostolic church do not have. Rome doesn't matter and it didn't have the connection to the word catholic until the great schism, what does matter is obeying the apostles who commanded us to keep unified and obey the traditions they passed down.

Nice story.

☦Marius☦ · Mar 6, 2020

Need answers said:
Nice story.

Story? It is a historic and biblical reality.

Need answers · Mar 6, 2020

☦Marius☦ said:
Story? It is a historic and biblical reality.

If you say so.

☦Marius☦ · Mar 7, 2020

Need answers said:
If you say so.

What Part are you questioning?

NeedyFollower · Mar 7, 2020

redleghunter said:
From Grace to You Ministries:

I would answer, "No." If you don’t believe in the Trinity, then you don’t understand who God is. You may say the word “God” but you don’t understand His nature. Second, you couldn’t possibly understand who Christ is—that He is God in human flesh. The Incarnation of Christ is an essential component of the biblical gospel, as John 1:1-14 and many other biblical passages make clear. To deny the Trinity is to deny the Incarnation. And to deny the Incarnation is to wrongly understand the true gospel.

In saying that, I realize that such an answer is going to not only impact people that you may have witnessed to (like Mormons), but it also applies to some in the broader Pentecostal movement, called United Pentecostals or "Jesus-Only" Pentecostals. Such individuals hold to a kind of modalism, where God is sometimes in the mode of the Father or the mode of the Son or the mode of the Spirit, but He’s never all three at the same time. That too is a deficient and heretical view of the Trinity. It denies the distinct Personhood of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The same question sometimes arises about the virgin birth. I think it is possible for a person to become a Christian before learning about the details of the virgin birth, though that person would certainly assume that Jesus Christ must have had a unique birth since He is both God and man. But, if someone knows about the virgin birth and says, “I deny the virgin birth,” then he is simultaneously denying the deity of Christ, and also the Trinity. Such a person betrays the fact that they do not understand the gospel, and therefore cannot have truly been saved.
Can You Be a Christian and Deny the Trinity?

I think a better question would be , Can you affirm the trinity and all orthodox belief and still be lost ? I look at the early catholic and protestant churches who had many of the same views on the trinity and persecuted each other and others .....I do not believe they understood the gospel of peace .

Need answers · Mar 7, 2020

☦Marius☦ said:
What Part are you questioning?

Catholic history.

redleghunter · Mar 7, 2020

NeedyFollower said:
I think a better question would be , Can you affirm the trinity and all orthodox belief and still be lost ? I look at the early catholic and protestant churches who had many of the same views on the trinity and persecuted each other and others .....I do not believe they understood the gospel of peace .

That is possible. But have those who acted according to the world truly come to the knowledge of truth?

2 Timothy 3:7

redleghunter · Mar 7, 2020

Need answers said:
Catholic history.

Do we question the truth of Holy Scriptures when individuals or groups of people use God’s Word for worldly and selfish reasons?

The following from Dr Norman Geisler:

Confusing our Fallible Interpretations with God’s Infallible Revelation

Jesus affirmed that the “Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35, NASB). As an infallible book, the Bible is also irrevocable. Jesus declared, “Truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished” (Matt. 5:18; Luke 16:17, NASB). The Scriptures also have final authority, being the last word on all it discusses. Jesus employed the Bible to resist the tempter (see Matt. 4:4, 7, 10), to settle doctrinal disputes (see Matt. 21:42), and to vindicate his authority (see Mark 11:17). Sometimes a biblical teaching rests on a small historical detail (see Heb. 7:4-10), a word or phrase (see Acts 15:13-17), or the difference between the singular and the plural (see Gal. 3:16).

But, while the Bible is infallible, human interpretations are not. Even though God’s Word is perfect (see Ps. 19:7), as long as imperfect human beings exist, there will be misinterpretations of God’s Word and false views about his world. In view of this, one should not be hasty in assuming that a currently dominant assumption in science is the final word. Some of yesterday’s irrefutable laws are considered errors by today’s scientists. So, contradictions between popular opinions in science and widely accepted interpretations of the Bible can be expected. But this falls short of proving there is a real contradiction.

Are There Any Errors in the Bible? – NORMAN GEISLER

Kenobi · Mar 7, 2020

redleghunter said:
Do we question the truth of Holy Scriptures when individuals or groups of people use God’s Word for worldly and selfish reasons?

The following from Dr Norman Geisler:

Confusing our Fallible Interpretations with God’s Infallible Revelation

Jesus affirmed that the “Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35, NASB). As an infallible book, the Bible is also irrevocable. Jesus declared, “Truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished” (Matt. 5:18; Luke 16:17, NASB). The Scriptures also have final authority, being the last word on all it discusses. Jesus employed the Bible to resist the tempter (see Matt. 4:4, 7, 10), to settle doctrinal disputes (see Matt. 21:42), and to vindicate his authority (see Mark 11:17). Sometimes a biblical teaching rests on a small historical detail (see Heb. 7:4-10), a word or phrase (see Acts 15:13-17), or the difference between the singular and the plural (see Gal. 3:16).

But, while the Bible is infallible, human interpretations are not. Even though God’s Word is perfect (see Ps. 19:7), as long as imperfect human beings exist, there will be misinterpretations of God’s Word and false views about his world. In view of this, one should not be hasty in assuming that a currently dominant assumption in science is the final word. Some of yesterday’s irrefutable laws are considered errors by today’s scientists. So, contradictions between popular opinions in science and widely accepted interpretations of the Bible can be expected. But this falls short of proving there is a real contradiction.

Are There Any Errors in the Bible? – NORMAN GEISLER

Understanding God's word comes down to the teaching of the Holy Spirit as well.

1 John 2:27

Saint Steven · Mar 7, 2020

public hermit said:
...what is essential to salvation cannot be belief in the Trinity as it was confirmed at the councils.

That says it all right there.

No one is saved by doctrine. IMHO
Only God can save. Furthermore, if indeed anyone is saved by doctrine, who's doctrine saves? There is no consensus on doctrine. One could argue that the essential doctrines are in the Creeds. But do the Creeds save? I don't buy that either.

Albion · Mar 7, 2020

That misses the entire point, however. No one is saying that we are saved by doctrine. But it is reasonable to ask "If instead it is our commitment to God, it must be to the real God, right?"

"And if this is true but a person then defines that God in a way that makes him be some other being, how does that represent having faith in the true God?" Well, it cannot.

Saint Steven · Mar 7, 2020

Charlie24 said:
I know many who deny the understanding of the Trinity as explained by some.

But I don't know anyone who claims to be a Christian and denies Christ.

Are only Christians saved?
There is a difference between not even knowing who Christ is and denying him.

The Apostle Peter denied Christ. Was he saved?

Albion · Mar 7, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Are only Christians saved?
There is a difference between not even knowing who Christ is and denying him.

The Apostle Peter denied Christ. Was he saved?

Peter denied Christ but only for a small while. He then spent the rest of his life in the service of the Lord and went to martyrdom rather than deny him again.

Saint Steven · Mar 7, 2020

Albion said:
Peter denied Christ but only for a small while. He then spent the rest of his life in the service of the Lord and went to martyrdom rather than deny him again.

In reality we ALL deny Christ EVERY day.
Regardless of whether we will admit it, or even acknowledge it.

Albion · Mar 7, 2020

Saint Steven said:
In reality we ALL deny Christ EVERY day.
Regardless of whether we will admit it, or even acknowledge it.

That sounds sage, but I do not think it is accurate.

Charlie24 · Mar 7, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Are only Christians saved?
There is a difference between not even knowing who Christ is and denying him.

The Apostle Peter denied Christ. Was he saved?

Peter sinned and went out and wept bitterly, proof that he was saved

Saint Steven said:
Are only Christians saved?
There is a difference between not even knowing who Christ is and denying him.

The Apostle Peter denied Christ. Was he saved?

Of course he was saved. Does not the scripture say that he went out and wept bitterly?

I think I would have done the same after realizing what I had done.

What do you mean "can only Christians be saved?"

Saint Steven · Mar 7, 2020

Albion said:
That sounds sage, but I do not think it is accurate.

Yes.
I suppose it depends on the definition of "deny".

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

Saint Steven said: ↑
In reality we ALL deny Christ EVERY day.
Regardless of whether we will admit it, or even acknowledge it.

Saint Steven · Mar 7, 2020

Charlie24 said:
What do you mean "can only Christians be saved?"

Read Hebrews chapter eleven and count the number of Christians.
Were those you didn't count as Christians saved or lost?

Charlie24 · Mar 7, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Read Hebrews chapter eleven and count the number of Christians.
Were those you didn't count as Christians saved or lost?

You have a strange way of explaining things. Count, didn't count, what are you talking about?

Maybe you need to call to my attention a previous post that I don't remember?

Can You Be a Christian and Deny the Trinity?

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