THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

Contenders Edge · Dec 30, 2019

claninja said:
Interesting, I've only replaced one word. If it's about orange soda, you are in agreement that the coming orange soda that you heard about is the same one you are seeing now. But when it is the antichrist, you believe the antichrist they heard is coming, is not the same as the antichrists that were then present. Clearly contradicting interpretations based on eschatological bias, and not of objective, logical thinking.

A.) "you have heard orange soda is coming"
"you have heard antichrist is coming

B.) "now there are orange sodas in every store"
"now there are many antichrists"

B fulfills A, there is no way around that. Your unbiased answer to the orange soda showed this, which is different than the eschatologically biased antichrist answer.

Orange soda cannot be coming and be here at the same time, it has to be one or the other but Anti-Christ can still be coming with other antichrists ahead of him and already here, but the coming Anti-Christ will be set apart from those preceding him because there are actions and attributes associated with him that are not tied to other antichrists. In your analogy, there is nothing to set one orange soda apart from another, but there are specific things about the coming Anti-Christ that set him apart from all the other antichrists who are already here.

parousia70 · Feb 26, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
...the coming Anti-Christ will be set apart from those preceding him because there are actions and attributes associated with him that are not tied to other antichrists. In your analogy, there is nothing to set one orange soda apart from another, but there are specific things about the coming Anti-Christ that set him apart from all the other antichrists who are already here.

No, there are not any such attributes and actions.
The ONLY teaching on antichrist is found in 1 and 2 John.
That's it.

Man made tradition has conflated the Biblical personalities of Paul's Man of Sin, John's Beast and Daniel's AoD with Antichrist of 1st and 2nd John, however there is absolutely no scripture that teaches these are the same individual and that this individual is A) Future to us, and B) Properly, biblically identified as "antichrist".

Again, such is PURELY a later addition and tradition of men and has no basis in ANY scriptural teaching whatsoever.

ebedmelech · Feb 26, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
Orange soda cannot be coming and be here at the same time, it has to be one or the other but Anti-Christ can still be coming with other antichrists ahead of him and already here, but the coming Anti-Christ will be set apart from those preceding him because there are actions and attributes associated with him that are not tied to other antichrists. In your analogy, there is nothing to set one orange soda apart from another, but there are specific things about the coming Anti-Christ that set him apart from all the other antichrists who are already here.

Fact is, antichrist was around when John wrote 1 & 2 John...and still is today. By definition antichrist can be a person, persons, entities, or institutions...

As John said in 1 John 4:2-3:
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

2 John 1:7
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

There is no one antichrist...there are many.

summerville · Feb 26, 2020

LittleLambofJesus said:
Please abide by the rules of CF for this Board........
Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose
Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

=====================================

Note: if you post, please vote in the poll.......thanks

Being a Preterist non-Dispensationalist Futurist, I tend to agree with much/most of the site shown below.......

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Also see: Rapture refuted

Replacement Theology, supersessionism: Christians are God's Jews. The church is true Israel.

"Replacement theology" or "supersessionism" is the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

John Hagee and others who oppose "replacement theology" are rank false teachers whom apostle Paul condemns as "fallen from grace, severed from Christ". (Gal 4:10; 5:4; Rom 7:1-7; Jer 31:31 + Heb 8:6-13)

DON'T CALL US ANTI-SEMENTIC

The vast majority of churches believe and teach "replacement theology". Churches that oppose "replacement theology" including John Hagee, are in the minority. Those who believe in Replacement Theology love the state of Israel and are among her strongest supporters!

Just because we do not feel modern Israel is any more special in the eyes of God than Canada or the USA, we defend and support the only democracy in the Middle east and consider Israel our primary ally in the world of Islamic Nuclear Jihad and terrorism.
We believe that Israel was granted legal title to the historic promised land through the Balfour Declaration (1917) and the League of Nations "Mandate for Palestine" of December 1922. We believe that "Palestinians" is a fictitious title for a "people" that never existed in history, except for the nation from which it owes its origin: Philistines (ie. Goliath) who are a long extinct nation. We do not believe Israel is an occupier or "Apartheid State".
We are neither "far-left" or "progressive" and condemn "Israel Apartheid Week" as a delusional pack of lies. We do not believe Israel is a "cursed nation". We oppose those who boycott Israel and prefer Israeli made products over anything made in Muslim countries because of their high quality. In fact, we admire and applaud how well Israel treats those in Gaza and the West Bank, given the number of terrorist attacks Muslims launch upon the peace loving, hard-working civilian Jewish population.

We reject the "two state solution" of Dividing Israel up into a militarily indefensible nation because the Koran is the problem. Those living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip already have the "two state solution" provided for in the "Mandate for Palestine"… the entire nation of "Jordan"! SO DON'T CALL US ANTI-SEMETIC. It makes you look dumb and uninformed.

Like all Christians we believe all Jews, Muslims and unbelievers are lost until they believe Jesus rose from the dead, repented and are immersed in water for the remission of their sins… and by the way, Jesus was a Jew NOT a Palestinian.

Jesus was born a Jew and lived as a Jew, keeping the Law of Moses perfect and sinless. IT ANGERS US THAT JEWS REFUSE TO ACTUALLY READ THE NEW TESTAMENT. But we still love Israel and support her as a democratic nation!
========================
TO BE CONTINUED

Lord Balfour was an ardent Christian Zionist.

Contenders Edge · Feb 27, 2020

parousia70 said:
No, there are not any such attributes and actions.
The ONLY teaching on antichrist is found in 1 and 2 John.
That's it.

Man made tradition has conflated the Biblical personalities of Paul's Man of Sin, John's Beast and Daniel's AoD with Antichrist of 1st and 2nd John, however there is absolutely no scripture that teaches these are the same individual and that this individual is A) Future to us, and B) Properly, biblically identified as "antichrist".

Again, such is PURELY a later addition and tradition of men and has no basis in ANY scriptural teaching whatsoever.

The coming Anti-Christ goes by more than one title, just as our Lord goes by more than one title and what the forthcoming Anti-Christ shares in common with the Man of Sin, John's Beast and Daniel's AoD is that they exalt themselves above and against Christ and that the forthcoming Anti-Christ was a specific figure widely known by the early Church destined to come before the return.

You claim that scripture does not teach that they are all the same individual, but yet there is nothing in scripture to suggest that the Anti-Christ known by the early Church is anyone different than the Man of Sin, the Beast, or the Abomination of Desolation. If they were not all the same individual, scripture would portray them as being different from one another. It does not. Even the anti-Christs who have preceded the Anti-Christ expected by the Church to appear before the return of Christ have not been able to do nor be able to do all that this forthcoming Anti-Christ is destined to do.

Contenders Edge · Feb 27, 2020

ebedmelech said:
Fact is, antichrist was around when John wrote 1 & 2 John...and still is today. By definition antichrist can be a person, persons, entities, or institutions...

As John said in 1 John 4:2-3:
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

2 John 1:7
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

There is no one antichrist...there are many.

But he still said there was an Anti-Christ to come who has yet to manifest himself. Those antichrists that have already gone out into the world are under the same spirit as that Anti-Christ to come, and while even multiple persons, entities, and institutions can be anti-Christ, all of them have failed to do what the coming Anti-Christ will be destined to do before our Lord returns.

parousia70 · Feb 27, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
If they were not all the same individual, scripture would portray them as being different from one another. It does not.

Scripture ABSOLUTELY portrays them as being different, and I'll even let you prove it.

By far, The best way to prove your case is to find parallel passages that speak of each character performing the same function or speaking of each character as synonymous participants in the same capacity at the same event.

So, here's your chance.
Take ANY teaching from the EXPLICIT teaching on antichrist found in these 4 passages ONLY, and then go ahead and find ANY other passage teaching about the Man of Sin, Beast, and/or AoD and demonstrate they teach the same "attribute and/or action, or are synonymous participants in the same capacity at the same event".

I'll get you started.
Here is the ENTIRE, EXPLICIT teaching on Antichrist found in the pages of scripture:

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Connect all 3 (MoS, AoD, Beast) or connect any 2, but in order to support your contention that scripture teaches they are the same individual, you should EASILY be able to demonstrate this connection with scripture, right?

parousia70 · Feb 27, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
But he still said there was an Anti-Christ to come who has yet to manifest himself.

Nope. John says no such thing.
John reminded His flocks that antichrist that they had previously heard WAS coming, Had now arrived and was already present:

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

nolidad · Feb 27, 2020

parousia70 said:
No, there are not any such attributes and actions.
The ONLY teaching on antichrist is found in 1 and 2 John.
That's it.

Man made tradition has conflated the Biblical personalities of Paul's Man of Sin, John's Beast and Daniel's AoD with Antichrist of 1st and 2nd John, however there is absolutely no scripture that teaches these are the same individual and that this individual is A) Future to us, and B) Properly, biblically identified as "antichrist".

Again, such is PURELY a later addition and tradition of men and has no basis in ANY scriptural teaching whatsoever.

There is enormous Scripture supporting it!

And yes the antichrist has unique attributes other false christs have not had!

He will rise from the dead and work powerful miracles. He will also have the power of his father--Satan!.

ebedmelech · Feb 27, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
But he still said there was an Anti-Christ to come who has yet to manifest himself. Those antichrists that have already gone out into the world are under the same spirit as that Anti-Christ to come, and while even multiple persons, entities, and institutions can be anti-Christ, all of them have failed to do what the coming Anti-Christ will be destined to do before our Lord returns.

You'll have to show me that one.

jgr · Feb 27, 2020

nolidad said:
There is enormous Scripture supporting it!

And yes the antichrist has unique attributes other false christs have not had!

He will rise from the dead and work powerful miracles. He will also have the power of his father--Satan!.

I'm sure that Parousia70 would extend you an invitation as well to participate in his post #927 challenge.

So go for it!!!

Contenders Edge · Feb 28, 2020

The burden of proof is actually on you who claims that the scripture portrays anti-Christ different from the Man of Sin spoken of by Paul, the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel and again by Christ, and the Beast spoken of by John and again by the prophet Daniel.

The Beast of Daniel and John: Speaks blasphemy against God and all the saints, and even the heavenly host. (Dan. 7:25, Rev. 13:5-7)

The Beast of John forces everyone to worship him as God on pain of death. (Rev. 13:15)

Both the Beast of Daniel and John severely persecute the saints. (Dan. 7:19-27, Rev. 13:15)

The Man of Sin will will declare himself to be God in that place. (2 Thess. 2:3-4) which is in relation to the Abomination of Desolation. (Mt. 24:15, Mk 13:14)

The Beast and the Man of Sin are destroyed by Christ when He returns. (Dan. 7:11, 26, 2 Thess. 2:4, Rev. 19)

If the anti-Christ spoken of in John’s epistles is different from the figures spoken of by Daniel, Paul, and even Christ Himself, we should expect scripture to expound on him more so as to distinguish him from the Man of Sin, the Beast and the Abomination of Desolation. It does not.

Therefore, the only viable conclusion is that the anti-Christ to come is the same as the figure spoken of by Daniel, Paul, the book of Revelation, and Jesus since according to the Apostle John, prophecies foretelling the coming of the Anti-Christ were widely known and circulated within the Church (1 Jn. 2:18) and does not attempt to refute them, but instead declared that other antichrists have already preceded the one yet to come.

Contenders Edge · Feb 28, 2020

ebedmelech said:
You'll have to show me that one.

1 John 2:18: "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that an-ti-christ shall come..."

How much more plain can that be?

Contenders Edge · Feb 28, 2020

parousia70 said:
Nope. John says no such thing.
John reminded His flocks that antichrist that they had previously heard WAS coming, Had now arrived and was already present:

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 2:18: "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that an-ti-christ shall come..."

How much more plain can that be?

parousia70 · Feb 28, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
1 John 2:18: "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that an-ti-christ shall come..."

How much more plain can that be?

Yep.. again, John Confirms they HAD heard (in the past) that antichrist shall come.. he then affirms that very antichrist THEY HAD HEARD ABOUT, HAD INDEED ALREADY ARRIVED, Proving THEY were living in the LAST HOUR of the Last Days.

It's ABSOLUTELY clear.
Plain as the nose on your face.

parousia70 · Feb 28, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
The burden of proof is actually on you who claims that the scripture portrays anti-Christ different from the Man of Sin spoken of by Paul, the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel and again by Christ, and the Beast spoken of by John and again by the prophet Daniel.

Incorrect.
I need not prove a negative. The onus is on the Positive Claimant.

The Beast of Daniel and John: Speaks blasphemy against God and all the saints, and even the heavenly host. (Dan. 7:25, Rev. 13:5-7)

The Beast of John forces everyone to worship him as God on pain of death. (Rev. 13:15)

Both the Beast of Daniel and John severely persecute the saints. (Dan. 7:19-27, Rev. 13:15)

The Man of Sin will will declare himself to be God in that place. (2 Thess. 2:3-4) which is in relation to the Abomination of Desolation. (Mt. 24:15, Mk 13:14)

The Beast and the Man of Sin are destroyed by Christ when He returns. (Dan. 7:11, 26, 2 Thess. 2:4, Rev. 19)

Show us in 1 and 2 John where antichrist Does ANY of these things.

If the anti-Christ spoken of in John’s epistles is different from the figures spoken of by Daniel, Paul, and even Christ Himself, we should expect scripture to expound on him more so as to distinguish him from the Man of Sin, the Beast and the Abomination of Desolation. It does not.

Show us in 1 and 2 John where antichrist Does ANY of these things.

Therefore, the only viable conclusion is that the anti-Christ to come is the same as the figure spoken of by Daniel, Paul, the book of Revelation, and Jesus since according to the Apostle John, prophecies foretelling the coming of the Anti-Christ were widely known and circulated within the Church (1 Jn. 2:18) and does not attempt to refute them, but instead declared that other antichrists have already preceded the one yet to come.

Show us in 1 and 2 John where antichrist Does ANY of these things.

Again, you have nothing but speculation and man made tradition to support this claim.
If you could show a scriptural connection, you would..

Here is a FOOL PROOF, BIBLICAL Test to determine if ANY individual is antichrist:

Take any individual you can think of and run them through this test:

BIBLICAL LITMUS TEST TO DISCOVER "ANTICHRISTS"
-- Four Questions--

#1) Has the person departed from the apostles' flocks, defecting from the true Christian faith to join "many deceivers" after first appearing to be a member?

"even now many antichrists have appeared ... THEY WENT OUT FROM US, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us they would have remained with us; but they went out" (1 Jn 2:18-19)

"For many deceivers have GONE OUT INTO THE WORLD ... this is the deceiver and the antichrist" (2 Jn 1:7)

"but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world ... this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world" ( 1 Jn 4:1, 3)

#2) Does this ex-church member now embrace and promote the specific heresy that makes a confession that Christ did not come in the flesh?

"For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who don't confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the Antichrist" (2 John 1:7)

"By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit who doesn't confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God, and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of whom you have heard that it comes. Now it is in the world already. " (1 Jn 4:2-3)

#3) Does this ex-church member, among many others who now embrace and promote the heresy about Christ not having ever come in the flesh, also try to claim the Father without having the Son (thereby denying both, according to John's teaching: Jn 15:23; Jn 5:23; Jn 8:42)?

"This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the son Whoever denies the Son DOES NOT HAVE THE FATHER; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also." (1 Jn 2:22-23)

#4) Does this person have a vital connection to St. John, who cites his presence in his own day as a sign that the the last hour of the endtimes is come upon the world?

"just as you heard that antichrist is coming, EVEN NOW MANY ANTICHRSTS HAVE APPEARED; FROM THIS WE KNOW IT IS THE LAST HOUR. They went out from us," (1 Jn 2:18-19)

HOW'D YOU SCORE?

Remember: A "yes" for all four questions gives a positive identification -- a single "no" disqualifies.

Contenders Edge · Feb 28, 2020

parousia70 said:
Yep.. again, John Confirms they HAD heard (in the past) that antichrist shall come.. he then affirms that very antichrist THEY HAD HEARD ABOUT, HAD INDEED ALREADY ARRIVED, Proving THEY were living in the LAST HOUR of the Last Days.

It's ABSOLUTELY clear.
Plain as the nose on your face.

No, he said that many antichrists had already come, preceding the one they had heard should come.

parousia70 · Feb 28, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
No, he said that many antichrists had already come, preceding the one they had heard should come.

Where does he say the many precede the one?

He does not.

What He actually says is the ONE coming was a Spirit, not a man, and that Spirit affected MANY.

John PLAINLY says, "They had heard IT should Come and now IT is here"

1 John 4:3
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

You can try to wiggle your way out of that plain testimony all you want... but it does not get more plain.

Contenders Edge · Feb 28, 2020

parousia70 said:
Incorrect.
I need not prove a negative. The onus is on the Positive Claimant.

Show us in 1 and 2 John where antichrist Does ANY of these things.

Show us in 1 and 2 John where antichrist Does ANY of these things.

Show us in 1 and 2 John where antichrist Does ANY of these things.

Again, you have nothing but speculation and man made tradition to support this claim.
If you could show a scriptural connection, you would..

Here is a FOOL PROOF, BIBLICAL Test to determine if ANY individual is antichrist:

Take any individual you can think of and run them through this test:

BIBLICAL LITMUS TEST TO DISCOVER "ANTICHRISTS"
-- Four Questions--

#1) Has the person departed from the apostles' flocks, defecting from the true Christian faith to join "many deceivers" after first appearing to be a member?

"even now many antichrists have appeared ... THEY WENT OUT FROM US, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us they would have remained with us; but they went out" (1 Jn 2:18-19)

"For many deceivers have GONE OUT INTO THE WORLD ... this is the deceiver and the antichrist" (2 Jn 1:7)

"but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world ... this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world" ( 1 Jn 4:1, 3)

#2) Does this ex-church member now embrace and promote the specific heresy that makes a confession that Christ did not come in the flesh?

"For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who don't confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the Antichrist" (2 John 1:7)

"By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit who doesn't confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God, and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of whom you have heard that it comes. Now it is in the world already. " (1 Jn 4:2-3)

#3) Does this ex-church member, among many others who now embrace and promote the heresy about Christ not having ever come in the flesh, also try to claim the Father without having the Son (thereby denying both, according to John's teaching: Jn 15:23; Jn 5:23; Jn 8:42)?

"This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the son Whoever denies the Son DOES NOT HAVE THE FATHER; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also." (1 Jn 2:22-23)

#4) Does this person have a vital connection to St. John, who cites his presence in his own day as a sign that the the last hour of the endtimes is come upon the world?

"just as you heard that antichrist is coming, EVEN NOW MANY ANTICHRSTS HAVE APPEARED; FROM THIS WE KNOW IT IS THE LAST HOUR. They went out from us," (1 Jn 2:18-19)

HOW'D YOU SCORE?

Remember: A "yes" for all four questions gives a positive identification -- a single "no" disqualifies.

An antichrist is one who is at emnity with Christ and was never of Christ to begin with. They enter in among us to destroy from within what they could not destroy from without, but that is not the issue being debated.

There is a specific Anti-Christ distinguished from the rest that have come who has yet to manifest himself. That John mentions prophecies of his coming being widely known and taught throughout the Church and makes no attempt to refute them ought to be enough of a scriptural basis to connect him to the Man of Sin, the Beast, and the Abomination of Desolation, yet you have denied any such connection without providing any scriptural proof that he is not any of those things.

Therefore, it is you who is adhering to speculation and man-made tradition.

Contenders Edge · Feb 28, 2020

parousia70 said:
Where does he say the many precede the one?

He does not.

What He actually says is the ONE coming was a Spirit, not a man, and that Spirit affected MANY.

John PLAINLY says, "They had heard IT should Come and now IT is here"

1 John 4:3
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

You can try to wiggle your way out of that plain testimony all you want... but it does not get more plain.

He DOES say that. He acknowledges the prophecies of the Anti-Christ to come, but then simply goes on to say that there antichrists have already arrived. This is not a refutation of the prophecies concerning a specific Anti-Christ who will stand out from all the rest and who is destined to do things others have not been able to do.

But the same spirit at work in the antichrists presently on the scene will also be at work in the one yet to come.

THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

DO YOU AGREE WITH THE OP POST?

Yes

No

I don't know what REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY is

I don't know what SUPERSESSIONISM IS

Does it matter?

Other

I don't know

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