Globalism vs. Nationalism

OldWiseGuy said:

Actually they are.

Proverbs 22:29
Seest thou a man diligent in his business? he shall stand before kings; he shall not stand before mean men.

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So its your opinion that the Rich men of the world are blessed and the poor are cursed. Of course thats just outside the Church, according to your words. Blessed are the rich unbelievers. That's your Gospel?

OldWiseGuy said:

Why would someone need a Sabbath rest after doing nothing for six days?

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Its above your head I'm afraid.

W2L said:

So its your opinion that the Rich men of the world are blessed and the poor are cursed. Of course thats just outside the Church, according to your words. Blessed are the rich unbelievers. That's your Gospel?

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The rich are blessed with wealth, the poor are cursed with 'poorness'. But they can overcome it and become blessed with wealth. It's up to them. You are using a strict definition of 'cursed', not what I mean at all. In modern lingo (circa 2016) being cursed is merely being the victim of unfortunate circumstances whether at fault or not, not a direct edict from God. However God did set before Israel "blessings and cursings", and went on to enumerate some of them. Looking at today's poor I see many of the same wrong choices that God described back then (updated of course). There are 'laws' that govern both wealth and poverty. Proverbs is loaded with examples of both. In fact the bible is filled with economic metaphors that have their basis in day-to-day financial affairs.

W2L said:

Its above your head I'm afraid.

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I'm afraid that you are on some sort of crusade to justify the poor and make them victims of the rich. There is no poor person in America that cannot rise above their poorness, excepting some compelling mental or physical handicap. You also seem to be saying that the poor are not only completely helpless but are destined to remain poor all the days of their lives. Paul saw through the 'plight' of many of these stating that "If a man doesn't work, he shouldn't eat". Terse, but true.

You are also presenting the 'poor' as being impoverished and in need of aid from others. This simply isn't true. Many poor people have chosen an austere lifestyle, avoiding the work and responsibility that most accept. I have no pity for them, in fact I envy them in a way.

I'm a "my way or the highway" guy. I want the so-called 'poor' to 'pass under the rod' before I help them. That's why almost all of my charitable contributions go to those who are truly helpless.

Just to demonstrate the ignorance and dishonesty that surrounds the so-called 'poor' it is sounded about almost every day that "nearly 50 million people are now on food stamps". But what people hear is that those 50 million people are going to bed hungry, when in fact they are all well fed thanks to the food stamp money. Hunger is no longer a problem for 50 million people.

The same goofy thinking prevails when some believe that if a rich person buys something for a million dollars that they not only have the stuff but also the million dollars. The fact is that they just placed a million dollars back in circulation, and no longer have it. Now the item may be worth a million dollars but unless it is sold the million dollars is in someone else's pocket(s).

.

OldWiseGuy said:

I'm afraid that you are on some sort of crusade to justify the poor and make them victims of the rich. There is no poor person in America that cannot rise above their poorness, excepting some compelling mental or physical handicap. You also seem to be saying that the poor are not only completely helpless but are destined to remain poor all the days of their lives. Paul saw through the 'plight' of many of these stating that "If a man doesn't work, he shouldn't eat". Terse, but true.

You are also presenting the 'poor' as being impoverished and in need of aid from others. This simply isn't true. Many poor people have chosen an austere lifestyle, avoiding the work and responsibility that most accept. I have no pity for them, in fact I envy them in a way.

I'm a "my way or the highway" guy. I want the so-called 'poor' to 'pass under the rod' before I help them. That's why almost all of my charitable contributions go to those who are truly helpless.

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You stereotype all poor folks as if they choose to be poor. That's incorrect. Rich people choose to be rich even if they inherit their wealth or work for it, they choose to stay rich, but not all poor people choose to be poor. Everyone cannot be rich unless we have equality. That equality is done through sharing and love. That's what Acts 4 and 2 Co 6 are about. Don't think I'm asking for your money cause I'm not. I'm not asking anyone for anything. I'm simply referring to what the scriptures teach us. You think God blessed a rich man so he can have more money than he needs, while others don't have enough? Look around the world, there is desperate poverty everywhere, and sometimes is very bad. How can a rich Christian drive around in his expensive car, live in his mansion, while that goes on? Is that love and faith to you?

I wonder why I even say anything. Its not like anyone ever changes their minds. I feel like all this is just a waste of time.

W2L said:

You stereotype all poor folks as if they choose to be poor. That's incorrect. Rich people choose to be rich even if they inherit their wealth or work for it, they choose to stay rich, but not all poor people choose to be poor. Everyone cannot be rich unless we have equality. That equality is done through sharing and love. That's what Acts 4 and 2 Co 6 are about. Don't think I'm asking for your money cause I'm not. I'm not asking anyone for anything. I'm simply referring to what the scriptures teach us. You think God blessed a rich man so he can have more money than he needs, while others don't have enough? Look around the world, there is desperate poverty everywhere, and sometimes is very bad. How can a rich Christian drive around in his expensive car, live in his mansion, while that goes on? Is that love and faith to you?

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Many of the 'poor' and the 'homeless' are only temporarily so. It is with the chronically and generationally poor that the biggest problem lies. And therein lies many of the reasons for poverty as revealed in scripture.

The money the rich spend trickles down. It is captured by those who build the mansions and cars. When you see the 'trappings' of wealth it is evidence that the rich are sharing it with everyone by hiring people and buying stuff.

A person has two choices. Work for yourself, or work for someone else. Most people just want to punch out and 'go home and drink beer', so they 'settle' for what their employer pays them. It's a compromise they make with themselves. If you work for yourself you take control of your earnings and the sky is the limit.

I have been poor many years of my life, by my own choosing (I just wanted to go home and drink beer). I was getting by but at a certain point I knew that I had to get off my lazy butt and provide for my retirement. Until then I never worried about money as I always had a job (I love work).

In a way this topic is like discussing racism. We can't get past the noise to the real meat of the subject.

I keep hitting 'Reply' instead of 'Edit'.

tall73 said:

Trump: We will no longer surrender this country, or its people to the false song of globalism.

Trump has characterized the race as globalism vs. nationalism. What do you see as characteristics of each, and what direction should the USA go in?

A search on the terms Trump, globalism, nationalism will show a number of news articles picking up on this dividing line.

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We are seeing a major negative effect of globalism now, where supply chains are starting to fail because of virus issues. Globalists have leveraged tech, government, and law to become too big for the Public good, and now the whole world is going to suffer for the greed of the few.

This would be much less of a problem if supply chains were far more localized, e.g. nationalism or tribalism.

Oafman said:

As many issues as there are with globalisation, it brings peace where nationalism brings war.

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Globalism is now bringing suffering.

tall73 said:

This is where I think Trump may have chosen poor wording. There are too many negative connotations to nationalism. Perhaps he could find some new term to convey the ideas of putting America's interests first, without the notion of superiority that are usually conveyed due to the history of the term nationalism.

Ultimately his message is that we can't look out for everyone else, and not look out for us.

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Nationalism does have some bad history. BUT, I don't buy that it is bad. We can love our country, think it's great and want to keep it prosperous and safe without thinking we have to go out and conquer other countries. We are not an Imperialist nation. In fact it appears the current nationalistic thought is to get out of other countries and not be involved militarily like we have been in the past.

Globalism is inevitable. People dont want governments to tell them where they cant go, who they cant talk to or do business with. Its basic liberty, people.

Now... precisely what globalism looks like could be great... or awful.

ananda said:

Globalism is now bringing suffering.

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Which puts it in the same category as just about everything else.

durangodawood said:

Which puts it in the same category as just about everything else.

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Indeed, but globalism is now bringing it on a massive scale, however.

Oafman said:

Nationalism is a word with multiple meanings, but minding your own business isn't really one of them. That sounds more like isolationism. You should also not confuse nationalism with patriotism, which is a much more benign fondness for your country. I agree with de Gaulle's explanation of the difference: "Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first"

Nationalism creates and widens differences between peoples. It tells one group of people that they're superior to another group, who usually reside on the other side of a line on a map, either geographical or arbitrary, and who must not be compromised with. It creates hate between peoples that makes devastating wars possible. Both World Wars could not have happened had nationalism not been so rife across Europe.

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Correct and I took a course on this topic and one of the fundamental functions of a nationalist agenda. In fact it is first on the list of do's to build a nationalist government. #1 Create mistrust and stoke fear in an outside threat. #2 Give some statements and visions that show you are the only one who can keep them safe. That is literally textbook definitions (paraphrased).

Globalism is good for small start-up businesses. I used to import products from China to sell at a discount in the USA. Now there is so much regulation, tarriff, and inspections to enforce all of this, I can't get a package for 2 months. It used to take 3 weeks. My business was ruined by this as people wanted their money back after 4-6 weeks. They don't want to wait or found something else they want to get with the money and cancel. Sometimes I'd have to eat the shipping. Lost 2 websites and Ebay sales are near 0. The people who can order large enough bulk get pushed right through with shipping contracts and such.

God made the nation . One can not be ruled from a power nexus in Europe for your neighborhood in Tuballo Mississippi. Yet, under globalism , some good jokes could be made... Like... Taliban General, The Queen and the President go mullet hunting in Alabama and...

rturner76 said:

Correct and I took a course on this topic and one of the fundamental functions of a nationalist agenda. In fact it is first on the list of do's to build a nationalist government. #1 Create mistrust and stoke fear in an outside threat. #2 Give some statements and visions that show you are the only one who can keep them safe. That is literally textbook definitions (paraphrased).

Globalism is good for small start-up businesses. I used to import products from China to sell at a discount in the USA. Now there is so much regulation, tarriff, and inspections to enforce all of this, I can't get a package for 2 months. It used to take 3 weeks. My business was ruined by this as people wanted their money back after 4-6 weeks. They don't want to wait or found something else they want to get with the money and cancel. Sometimes I'd have to eat the shipping. Lost 2 websites and Ebay sales are near 0. The people who can order large enough bulk get pushed right through with shipping contracts and such.

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IMO, nationalism is about ensuring that every local group is self-sustaining, with good, fulfilling local jobs.

I want to see local banks, local factory workers, local bakers, etc. in every town or city, each providing a valued trusted, service for their own local, self-sustaining communities. This would provide plenty of reasonable jobs across multiple sectors.

I don't want to see opportunists muscle in with a centralized baking system shipping & selling baked goods across multiple communities, undercutting prices & putting all those local bakers out of business, & subsequently destroying both the social fabric of local communities and personal health as tragic side-effects. Destruction of said local jobs compel individuals to seek other employment which only serves to feed this destructive system, eroding individual ethics and morality in the process.

ananda said:

IMO, nationalism is about ensuring that every local group is self-sustaining, with good, fulfilling local jobs.

I want to see local banks, local factory workers, local bakers, etc. in every town or city, each providing a valued trusted, service for their own local, self-sustaining communities. This would provide plenty of reasonable jobs across multiple sectors.

I don't want to see opportunists muscle in with a centralized baking system shipping & selling baked goods across multiple communities, undercutting prices & putting all those local bakers out of business, & subsequently destroying both the social fabric of local communities and personal health as tragic side-effects. Destruction of said local jobs compel individuals to seek other employment which only serves to feed this destructive system, eroding individual ethics and morality in the process.

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Yes, I definitely wouldn't want our economy too dependent on foreign markets in order to harbor a good economy.

I think neither globalism nor nationalism should be the rule but a mix of the two. We need a strong home economy with enough farms producing enough food to feed us at affordable prices, not depending on imported frains and such. We should be capable of energy independence and manufacturing capabilities to provide whatever else we need.

That last one is what we are talking about here. The USA does not want to pay more than the minimum possible wages for most jobs that used to take care of a family. Now we sell knowledge, education, and entertainment to the world. KFC in Paris, Hummers in Dubai. Billions in music and TV, Netflix etc.

So it all depends on your industry how globalism and nationalism affect your bottom line.

ananda said:

IMO, nationalism is about ensuring that every local group is self-sustaining, with good, fulfilling local jobs.

I want to see local banks, local factory workers, local bakers, etc. in every town or city, each providing a valued trusted, service for their own local, self-sustaining communities. This would provide plenty of reasonable jobs across multiple sectors.

I don't want to see opportunists muscle in with a centralized baking system shipping & selling baked goods across multiple communities, undercutting prices & putting all those local bakers out of business, & subsequently destroying both the social fabric of local communities and personal health as tragic side-effects. Destruction of said local jobs compel individuals to seek other employment which only serves to feed this destructive system, eroding individual ethics and morality in the process.

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Ok, we get it. You want smaller local companies, with fewer choices and higher prices. You believe that the higher prices are worth it.