The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever
- Thread starter BCsenior
- Start date
Please forgive me if I showing naiveté, but can I see if I understand the full argument?
The OP is stating that while I you are given grace to be redeemed through Christ’s sacrifice, it is also necessary to provide good fruit, because faith without works is dead. However, the works do not give you Salvation, but maintains the Salvation given through grace. Living in disobedience to God, and other commands listed, may make you fall from grace, and thus, lose your salvation. Once you are saved, you must obey to follow Christ, or else you are like the seeds that grew in the thorns that grow at first, then are choked out and die, you are the rejected goats who did not care for their neighbor.
The argument against the OP is that only through grace are we saved. The works are simply part of the discipleship, but the OP seems to imply, according to the poster, that one’s works act like a co-salvation, where Jesus does half, and repentence of sin is the half you do, which the poster disagrees, because only through God’s grace are you saved, and thus, through the indwelling of the HS and Christ’s love in your heart, fruit of the spirit, demonstrated through works, are produced.
Do I understand that correctly?
There seems to be a mutual understanding that the works/fruit of the Spirit,should be present in the believer if they are following Christ, just whether or not those works keep your salvatiin or lack of works make you lose it.
Is that right?
There also seems to be a statement that faith without works is dead. I’m not clear how one would be drawn to Christ and ask him into their heart and forgiveness of sins, and then have an attitude of “well, I’m saved, so now I’m gonna put my feet up in do nothing until the second coming” or “woohoo! God just forgave my sin, so now I’m going to Vegas for hookers and blow.”
Why would anyone seeking Christ consciously want to go out and start sinning? I have never met a Christian who believed they had a Get Out of Hell Free Card so they could do whatever they wanted. Such a person probably wouldn’t be that concerned about being a Christian in the first place. The only instance I can think of where this might happen is someone raised in a family where they go to church at Christmas and Easter, but that’s it. Believe in God may have invited Christ into their heart, but say, “I believe in God but not very religious.” They don’t pray. They don’t read the bible. They basically have no relationship with God, ic they don’t understand what that would look like.
I would also argue, that Paul says that if we don’t have love, we have nothing, no matter how good the work is:
1 corinthians 13
1If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Here, what is said is the greatest works is nothing if you don’t have love, the greatest miracle means nothing without love. Without love, obeying the commandments and giving to the poor would be done with the expectation of a spiritual paycheck -entrance into the kingdom. By contrast, when one has love, helping those in need becomes second nature to the new creation you are becoming. It is love in action as a natural extension of that love, and in hard situations, like turning the other cheek or living your neighbor, may be closer to obedience, a fake it til you make it.
If we don’t love one another, we don’t know God, and we cannot say we love God if we hate our brother.
1 John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
20Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.
But all of that said, I don’t know of any churches that teach easy salvation, that you become saved, and do whatever you want. As Christ said, all of the laws hang on the command to love your neighbor as yourself.
In the story of the good Samaritan, thr priest, a person who was respected, may have been following scripture about cleansing oneself before entering the temple. When he saw the man, not wanting to dirty himself and clean again, chose keeping the law over caring for someone in need of help. The Levite did the same.
The Samaritans, people who were often hated and thought below the common sinner, is shown by Jesus to be the one truly following him because he helps thr beaten man, not out of obligation or obedience, but because he had love, compassion and empathy for the beaten man, even though he was a stranger.
My understanding of the goats are those like the Pharisees. They may be very religious so others will think them holy. Because their faith is more about enjoying honor from man, they receive none from God. Because they exalt themselves. they will be humbled. Because their faith is a facade, they are dead on the inside. They may be able to quote the bible very well, but because they have ulterior motives, and lack love, they will use their Biblical fluency most often as a weapon to condemn others, especially those who challenge their beliefs or authority. They wiil strain a gnat (obsess over petty rules) and swallow a camel (ignore the call to love your neighbor.) Rather than spending time in self reflection, they will focus on the sins of others, specks that they claim are sequoias. while ignoring the sequoia coming from their own eye (lack of love, himility, kindness, etc.,then condemn the brother to hell, unless the brother obeys them. They claim that it is God’s Will, not theirs, but refuse to see that it is their understanding of scripture, and could be wrong.
Above all, it is important for them to be right, because it feeds the ego, believing they won an argument. They demand to be listened to, yet refuse to listen, because they love themselves, not their neighbor as themselves. They condemn others with self righteousness, but forgive thrmselves, because they do not love their neighbor as themselves. They may preach in the pulpit, loving the respect and obedience he gets from others. He may even preach hatred, lifting verses out of context of the passage or cultural understandings of the time, because what he believes is more important than what the bible says, so he finds verses to support his opinion, preaches to the congregation, and now has his congregation believing his opinion, calling it God’s Will, sometimes to the point of harming others, and believing they are honoring God, while doing the opposite.
Can you see how such a person wouldn’t help someone who was hungry if the didn’t gain from it? The person is serving and worshipping themselves.
These are that say “Lord, Lord.”
These are the ones, saying “didn’t I keep the commandments? Didn’t I preach in the Church?” And as Christ referred to the Pharisees, snakes, vipers brood, who are fit for hell, then spewing their false interpretations, blinded by their own pride, make their followers twice as bad and toxic.
Christ does not say he does not know them because the had a grace/works debate wrong.
Christ doesn’t know them because their religion was self serving to be honored before men, they condemned the sinners, sometimes refused to acknowledge them, because the Pharisees believed the sinners beneath them, and not worthy of respect, nor worthy of God’s love - reprobates God gave up on, and so, so did they. In the way they mistreated others, they had done so to Jesus. They had bad Fruit.
in contrast, the sheep do not brag about all the good deeds did to earn their way into heaven. In fact, they were surprised when Christ thanked them for feeding him, clothing him, caring for him when ill, etc. These works were a result of Christ’s love within them. They didn’t keep score expecting something in return. If asked to walk a mile, would insist on going 3. When one has walked with the Lord, these actions and way of thinking seem natural or a given, nothing special. “I just did what anyone else would have.” They don’t even pride themselves in things, because their nature becomes, “I couldn’t not help. I saw myself in the homeless person, and if I had been in their shoes, would probably be begging for food, too. I would be stsrving. So I got this idea to go to the store, but food for sandwiches, fruit and water, then go back and hand out the lunches free of charge. I may do this a couple times s week. It may not help the problem, but at least it will give them s meal.”
Those are the sheep. They love their neighbor simply because it is their Christ heart nature. And these works become so natural that they may not even know the kindness and love they are demonstrating, saying it’s nothing.
i don’t think that one can ask Christ into their heart, and then purposely deny love to their neighbor, disobeying Chtist’s command. I can’t think of a reason why anyone would do that.
The only time I have seen it is when a Pharisees, masked as a Christian, worships their own ego so much that they actually believe the lies they tell, and the lies are not of God, but of the deceiver, who fills their mind and heart with pride, arrogance, and feeds their ego, telling how wise they are, how much holier than others they are, and how deserving of Paradise they are.
They lie to make a point. They will give some criteria which, if you don’t meet, judge you and say you are damned, usually with glee, which follows, because the soul, in believing they have lost salvation, may separate themselves from the herd, so that the wolf can attack, another soul lost. They will mock those who quote the commandment to love as mamby-pamby religion that holds people’s hand all the way to hell, and being weak.
They will claim their harshness is love, their fight to legally make the lives of their neighbor difficult is obeying God anc opposing sin. They will tell lies about their neighbor to gain support. They will use fear of false accusations to manipulate opinion and gain support. And all of this they do, knowing deep down that it is wrong, but the God they serve tells them they are the victim, and their religion is under attack. He tells them that they have to fight back when the neighbor has done nothing. He appeals to their Old Adam, to the childish “he started it” immaturity, the master feeding them lies about how “the other” is a threat that wants to destroy everything and everyone they care about . It is that part that mocks intending to harm, and tells them they are justified. When questioning whether they are going to far. their God shows where Christ was harsh to assuage their guilt, and focus on the harsh rebukes while ignoring the gentle parts.
The reason Christ does not know them is because they serve Satan, a wolf in sheep’s clothing. This, in my opinion, is the true “easy-believing” salvation.
True tough love requires that you don’t just love those who love you, but to love your enemies, to bless those that curse you, and forgive those who sin against you even if they have no remorse.
That’s tough.
To give to others without asking for anything in return. That’s tough.
But condemning others is easy.
Claiming you alone have all truth, and anyone who disagrees is going to hell, is easy.
Using derogatory speech is a cakewalk. Sinners do that.
Shunning people is easy, and will make you feel like you made the cut because you are above them in your exclusive club.
Exalting yourself is easy. Rappers do it all the time.
Picking on a marginalized group with a large group is easy, like when 8 girls target and bully one.
Focussing on other’s sin is very easy, especially if the person isn’t present to defend themselves, and the sin you condemn with isn’t a temptation for the congregation. Then you can focus on it so much that you will believe no one will look at your own sin, or theirs. Even if the HS shakes them up, Satan will tell them, well, nobody’s perfect, but it isn’t bad as that other sin of those people...
Wanting others you judge as not worthy is easy. It’s why we like the bad guy in a movie to get some punishment. We want vengeance.
But trying to see all people lived equally by God. to understand none of us are worthy of heaven, means we must humble ourselves before God. But their God fills them with pride, with haughtiness. with deceit, with arrogance, with a murderous hatred in their hearts, and so feeds the ego that they are blinded, and may have turned people away from God, by showing the antithesis of what Christ taught. Thinking this is what all Christians are like, they may have been an obstacle of the seeker, and Christ, and on such people shall be s very harsh punishment.
That is the easy-believing Christianity.
The OP is stating that while I you are given grace to be redeemed through Christ’s sacrifice, it is also necessary to provide good fruit, because faith without works is dead. However, the works do not give you Salvation, but maintains the Salvation given through grace. Living in disobedience to God, and other commands listed, may make you fall from grace, and thus, lose your salvation. Once you are saved, you must obey to follow Christ, or else you are like the seeds that grew in the thorns that grow at first, then are choked out and die, you are the rejected goats who did not care for their neighbor.
The argument against the OP is that only through grace are we saved. The works are simply part of the discipleship, but the OP seems to imply, according to the poster, that one’s works act like a co-salvation, where Jesus does half, and repentence of sin is the half you do, which the poster disagrees, because only through God’s grace are you saved, and thus, through the indwelling of the HS and Christ’s love in your heart, fruit of the spirit, demonstrated through works, are produced.
Do I understand that correctly?
There seems to be a mutual understanding that the works/fruit of the Spirit,should be present in the believer if they are following Christ, just whether or not those works keep your salvatiin or lack of works make you lose it.
Is that right?
There also seems to be a statement that faith without works is dead. I’m not clear how one would be drawn to Christ and ask him into their heart and forgiveness of sins, and then have an attitude of “well, I’m saved, so now I’m gonna put my feet up in do nothing until the second coming” or “woohoo! God just forgave my sin, so now I’m going to Vegas for hookers and blow.”
Why would anyone seeking Christ consciously want to go out and start sinning? I have never met a Christian who believed they had a Get Out of Hell Free Card so they could do whatever they wanted. Such a person probably wouldn’t be that concerned about being a Christian in the first place. The only instance I can think of where this might happen is someone raised in a family where they go to church at Christmas and Easter, but that’s it. Believe in God may have invited Christ into their heart, but say, “I believe in God but not very religious.” They don’t pray. They don’t read the bible. They basically have no relationship with God, ic they don’t understand what that would look like.
I would also argue, that Paul says that if we don’t have love, we have nothing, no matter how good the work is:
1 corinthians 13
1If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Here, what is said is the greatest works is nothing if you don’t have love, the greatest miracle means nothing without love. Without love, obeying the commandments and giving to the poor would be done with the expectation of a spiritual paycheck -entrance into the kingdom. By contrast, when one has love, helping those in need becomes second nature to the new creation you are becoming. It is love in action as a natural extension of that love, and in hard situations, like turning the other cheek or living your neighbor, may be closer to obedience, a fake it til you make it.
If we don’t love one another, we don’t know God, and we cannot say we love God if we hate our brother.
1 John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
20Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.
But all of that said, I don’t know of any churches that teach easy salvation, that you become saved, and do whatever you want. As Christ said, all of the laws hang on the command to love your neighbor as yourself.
In the story of the good Samaritan, thr priest, a person who was respected, may have been following scripture about cleansing oneself before entering the temple. When he saw the man, not wanting to dirty himself and clean again, chose keeping the law over caring for someone in need of help. The Levite did the same.
The Samaritans, people who were often hated and thought below the common sinner, is shown by Jesus to be the one truly following him because he helps thr beaten man, not out of obligation or obedience, but because he had love, compassion and empathy for the beaten man, even though he was a stranger.
My understanding of the goats are those like the Pharisees. They may be very religious so others will think them holy. Because their faith is more about enjoying honor from man, they receive none from God. Because they exalt themselves. they will be humbled. Because their faith is a facade, they are dead on the inside. They may be able to quote the bible very well, but because they have ulterior motives, and lack love, they will use their Biblical fluency most often as a weapon to condemn others, especially those who challenge their beliefs or authority. They wiil strain a gnat (obsess over petty rules) and swallow a camel (ignore the call to love your neighbor.) Rather than spending time in self reflection, they will focus on the sins of others, specks that they claim are sequoias. while ignoring the sequoia coming from their own eye (lack of love, himility, kindness, etc.,then condemn the brother to hell, unless the brother obeys them. They claim that it is God’s Will, not theirs, but refuse to see that it is their understanding of scripture, and could be wrong.
Above all, it is important for them to be right, because it feeds the ego, believing they won an argument. They demand to be listened to, yet refuse to listen, because they love themselves, not their neighbor as themselves. They condemn others with self righteousness, but forgive thrmselves, because they do not love their neighbor as themselves. They may preach in the pulpit, loving the respect and obedience he gets from others. He may even preach hatred, lifting verses out of context of the passage or cultural understandings of the time, because what he believes is more important than what the bible says, so he finds verses to support his opinion, preaches to the congregation, and now has his congregation believing his opinion, calling it God’s Will, sometimes to the point of harming others, and believing they are honoring God, while doing the opposite.
Can you see how such a person wouldn’t help someone who was hungry if the didn’t gain from it? The person is serving and worshipping themselves.
These are that say “Lord, Lord.”
These are the ones, saying “didn’t I keep the commandments? Didn’t I preach in the Church?” And as Christ referred to the Pharisees, snakes, vipers brood, who are fit for hell, then spewing their false interpretations, blinded by their own pride, make their followers twice as bad and toxic.
Christ does not say he does not know them because the had a grace/works debate wrong.
Christ doesn’t know them because their religion was self serving to be honored before men, they condemned the sinners, sometimes refused to acknowledge them, because the Pharisees believed the sinners beneath them, and not worthy of respect, nor worthy of God’s love - reprobates God gave up on, and so, so did they. In the way they mistreated others, they had done so to Jesus. They had bad Fruit.
in contrast, the sheep do not brag about all the good deeds did to earn their way into heaven. In fact, they were surprised when Christ thanked them for feeding him, clothing him, caring for him when ill, etc. These works were a result of Christ’s love within them. They didn’t keep score expecting something in return. If asked to walk a mile, would insist on going 3. When one has walked with the Lord, these actions and way of thinking seem natural or a given, nothing special. “I just did what anyone else would have.” They don’t even pride themselves in things, because their nature becomes, “I couldn’t not help. I saw myself in the homeless person, and if I had been in their shoes, would probably be begging for food, too. I would be stsrving. So I got this idea to go to the store, but food for sandwiches, fruit and water, then go back and hand out the lunches free of charge. I may do this a couple times s week. It may not help the problem, but at least it will give them s meal.”
Those are the sheep. They love their neighbor simply because it is their Christ heart nature. And these works become so natural that they may not even know the kindness and love they are demonstrating, saying it’s nothing.
i don’t think that one can ask Christ into their heart, and then purposely deny love to their neighbor, disobeying Chtist’s command. I can’t think of a reason why anyone would do that.
The only time I have seen it is when a Pharisees, masked as a Christian, worships their own ego so much that they actually believe the lies they tell, and the lies are not of God, but of the deceiver, who fills their mind and heart with pride, arrogance, and feeds their ego, telling how wise they are, how much holier than others they are, and how deserving of Paradise they are.
They lie to make a point. They will give some criteria which, if you don’t meet, judge you and say you are damned, usually with glee, which follows, because the soul, in believing they have lost salvation, may separate themselves from the herd, so that the wolf can attack, another soul lost. They will mock those who quote the commandment to love as mamby-pamby religion that holds people’s hand all the way to hell, and being weak.
They will claim their harshness is love, their fight to legally make the lives of their neighbor difficult is obeying God anc opposing sin. They will tell lies about their neighbor to gain support. They will use fear of false accusations to manipulate opinion and gain support. And all of this they do, knowing deep down that it is wrong, but the God they serve tells them they are the victim, and their religion is under attack. He tells them that they have to fight back when the neighbor has done nothing. He appeals to their Old Adam, to the childish “he started it” immaturity, the master feeding them lies about how “the other” is a threat that wants to destroy everything and everyone they care about . It is that part that mocks intending to harm, and tells them they are justified. When questioning whether they are going to far. their God shows where Christ was harsh to assuage their guilt, and focus on the harsh rebukes while ignoring the gentle parts.
The reason Christ does not know them is because they serve Satan, a wolf in sheep’s clothing. This, in my opinion, is the true “easy-believing” salvation.
True tough love requires that you don’t just love those who love you, but to love your enemies, to bless those that curse you, and forgive those who sin against you even if they have no remorse.
That’s tough.
To give to others without asking for anything in return. That’s tough.
But condemning others is easy.
Claiming you alone have all truth, and anyone who disagrees is going to hell, is easy.
Using derogatory speech is a cakewalk. Sinners do that.
Shunning people is easy, and will make you feel like you made the cut because you are above them in your exclusive club.
Exalting yourself is easy. Rappers do it all the time.
Picking on a marginalized group with a large group is easy, like when 8 girls target and bully one.
Focussing on other’s sin is very easy, especially if the person isn’t present to defend themselves, and the sin you condemn with isn’t a temptation for the congregation. Then you can focus on it so much that you will believe no one will look at your own sin, or theirs. Even if the HS shakes them up, Satan will tell them, well, nobody’s perfect, but it isn’t bad as that other sin of those people...
Wanting others you judge as not worthy is easy. It’s why we like the bad guy in a movie to get some punishment. We want vengeance.
But trying to see all people lived equally by God. to understand none of us are worthy of heaven, means we must humble ourselves before God. But their God fills them with pride, with haughtiness. with deceit, with arrogance, with a murderous hatred in their hearts, and so feeds the ego that they are blinded, and may have turned people away from God, by showing the antithesis of what Christ taught. Thinking this is what all Christians are like, they may have been an obstacle of the seeker, and Christ, and on such people shall be s very harsh punishment.
That is the easy-believing Christianity.
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I’m asking forgiveness for the length of my posts. I know they are long, but I have something of content to say.
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Zachm531
Active Member
There is no cop out IF YOU TRY TO BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW,
YOU ARE SEVERED FROM CHRIST AND FALLEN FROM GRACE.
I dont get how you could read Galatians 5:4 and still be able to ask what you asked. Read Romans, Read Galatians, Read Hebrews, Read Ephesians. They make it very clear that Faith works salvation and justification. Ephesians 2:10 tells us that we are called unto good works. And never did i claim that “if you are obedient to God you wont be saved”. Idk how you could even come to that conclusion. Let me be as clear as possible: salvation comes by grace through faith. Sanctification and spiritual maturity come through works, prayer and reading the word. You should 100% be obedient to God and his word BUT do not think that obedience can save/justify you before Gods sight: Galatians 2:21
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And you are saying that a good tree bears good fruit, so a mature Christian should have that prezsnt.
However, trying to justify yourself through the law denies the justification/forgiveness/salvation through Christ, thus, severs you from him. Is that right?
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- Oct 10, 2011
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We must, absolutely must, cause even though a true believer is supposed to have good fruit and good works, we must absolutely avoid like the plague judging each other or one another by outer or outward appearances, especially since most of the time, one is only doing so, in order to judge whether or not they are better than someone else, etc, but only God knows the heart(s), etc...
Also the time or timing in which one should have such good outer or outward appearances also, etc... And even then, we should not judge just only based on that ever, etc...
And if your doing it in order to gauge yourself to as whether you are "better" or not, you are already fallen and have fallen very far from grace, etc, hence the danger in doing so, etc...
We are called to love one another, even and especially sinners and non-believers and that's it, not judge, not gauge, not impose our own, most often "self-righteousness" upon them, etc, but judge to love them, etc...
Pharisees can't do this, and they are actually full of bitter jealousy and envy about those sinners which they would come down on and judge, etc, which really truly shows their heart, etc, and what their heart would really like to be like and do, etc...
They think because they fight their own wicked heart in this regard, that they are "better", etc, but then why are they very bitterly angry and envious and/or jealous still, etc...? They do not see that they are making their situation much worse, etc, which is exactly what living by the letter of the law does, etc... Which is why it is not the way, etc, but they fail to see that, and so are stuck in and with their own wicked hearts and their most evil wicked desires that they just make worse, etc, that they blame on those others, etc... The level of temptations they fight, that they hate everyone else for and about, are due to their trying to live by the letter of the law and clean themselves up outwardly, etc, but inside...? anyway... they fail to see just how serious their problems are/is, and just how far they have fallen, or their need to be "truly saved", and for repentance themselves, etc, and how it their own dang fault, etc... they are apostate and may be beyond saving, not realizing their own need for salvation, thinking they are already saved already, and those "others", those "sinners" that they hate and are bitterly angry and jealous over and about and with, being filled with the same evil and wicked desires but that they only make much worse, etc, that they blame on them, etc...
Anyway, I could go on, and on, "and on", but, gonna stop there...
Suffice to say, they do not realize and cannot see...
Blind guides, etc...
They are the truly wicked ones, etc...
Their black, cold and callous dark hearts are darker and blacker than any other...
God Bless!
Also the time or timing in which one should have such good outer or outward appearances also, etc... And even then, we should not judge just only based on that ever, etc...
And if your doing it in order to gauge yourself to as whether you are "better" or not, you are already fallen and have fallen very far from grace, etc, hence the danger in doing so, etc...
We are called to love one another, even and especially sinners and non-believers and that's it, not judge, not gauge, not impose our own, most often "self-righteousness" upon them, etc, but judge to love them, etc...
Pharisees can't do this, and they are actually full of bitter jealousy and envy about those sinners which they would come down on and judge, etc, which really truly shows their heart, etc, and what their heart would really like to be like and do, etc...
They think because they fight their own wicked heart in this regard, that they are "better", etc, but then why are they very bitterly angry and envious and/or jealous still, etc...? They do not see that they are making their situation much worse, etc, which is exactly what living by the letter of the law does, etc... Which is why it is not the way, etc, but they fail to see that, and so are stuck in and with their own wicked hearts and their most evil wicked desires that they just make worse, etc, that they blame on those others, etc... The level of temptations they fight, that they hate everyone else for and about, are due to their trying to live by the letter of the law and clean themselves up outwardly, etc, but inside...? anyway... they fail to see just how serious their problems are/is, and just how far they have fallen, or their need to be "truly saved", and for repentance themselves, etc, and how it their own dang fault, etc... they are apostate and may be beyond saving, not realizing their own need for salvation, thinking they are already saved already, and those "others", those "sinners" that they hate and are bitterly angry and jealous over and about and with, being filled with the same evil and wicked desires but that they only make much worse, etc, that they blame on them, etc...
Anyway, I could go on, and on, "and on", but, gonna stop there...
Suffice to say, they do not realize and cannot see...
Blind guides, etc...
They are the truly wicked ones, etc...
Their black, cold and callous dark hearts are darker and blacker than any other...
God Bless!
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- Mar 18, 2014
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As with most of these threads, the core argued against is an antinomian position. However, now includes by some extreme legalists as God's Grace is no longer a free gift.
The gospel that Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience, not just a plea to make a decision or pray a prayer. Jesus' message liberated people from the bondage of their sin while it confronted and condemned hypocrisy. It was an offer of eternal life and forgiveness for repentant sinners, but at the same time it was a rebuke to outwardly religious people whose lives were devoid of true righteousness. It put sinners on notice that they must turn from sin and embrace God's righteousness. Our Lord's words about eternal life were invariably accompanied by warnings to those who might be tempted to take salvation lightly. He taught that the cost of following Him is high, that the way is narrow and few find it. He said many who call him Lord will be forbidden from entering the kingdom of heaven (cf. Matthew 7:13-23).
Present-day evangelicalism, by and large, ignores these warnings. The prevailing view of what constitutes saving faith continues to grow broader and more shallow, while the portrayal of Christ in preaching and witnessing becomes fuzzy. Anyone who claims to be a Christian can find evangelicals willing to accept a profession of faith, whether or not the person's behavior shows any evidence of commitment to Christ. In this way, faith has become merely an intellectual exercise. Instead of calling men and women to surrender to Christ, modern evangelism asks them only to accept some basic facts about Him.
This shallow understanding of salvation and the gospel, known as "easy-believism," stands in stark contrast to what the Bible teaches. To put it simply, the gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ's authority. This, in a nutshell, is what is commonly referred to as lordship salvation.
The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation
There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.
What, then, are the distinctives of lordship salvation? What does Scripture teach that is embraced by those who affirm lordship salvation but rejected by proponents of "easy-believism"? The following are nine distinctives of a biblical understanding of salvation and the gospel.
First, Scripture teaches that the gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25). It is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18-20). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that repentance is simply a synonym for faith and that no turning from sin is required for salvation.
Second, Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5). Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Ephesians 2:1-5, 8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Philippians 1:6; cf. Hebrews 11). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that faith might not last and that a true Christian can completely cease believing.
Third, Scripture teaches that the object of faith is Christ Himself, not a creed or a promise (John 3:16). Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). In other words, all true believers follow Jesus (John 10:27-28). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that saving faith is simply being convinced or giving credence to the truth of the gospel and does not include a personal commitment to the person of Christ.
Fourth, Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.
Fifth, Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3; Romans 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven. In contrast, according to easy-believism, only the judicial aspects of salvation (e.g., justification, adoption, and positional sanctification) are guaranteed for believers in this life; practical sanctification and growth in grace require a post-conversion act of dedication.
Sixth, Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Romans 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.
Seventh, Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Peter 1:8-9; Romans 8:28-30; 1 Corinthians 16:22). They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality.
Eighth, Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3). On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith.
Ninth, Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Corinthians 1:8). Those who later turn completely away from the Lord show that they were never truly born again (1 John 2:19). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that a true believer may utterly forsake Christ and come to the point of not believing.
Most Christians recognize that these nine distinctives are not new or radical ideas. The preponderance of Bible-believing Christians over the centuries have held these to be basic tenets of orthodoxy. In fact, no major orthodox movement in the history of Christianity has ever taught that sinners can spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior.
This issue is not a trivial one. In fact, how could any issue be more important? The gospel that is presented to unbelievers has eternal ramifications. If it is the true gospel, it can direct men and women into the everlasting kingdom. If it is a corrupted message, it can give unsaved people false hope while consigning them to eternal damnation. This is not merely a matter for theologians to discuss and debate and speculate about. This is an issue that every single pastor and lay person must understand in order that the gospel may be rightly proclaimed to all the nations. (John MacArthur)
An Introduction to Lordship Salvation
More: A 15-Year Retrospective on the Lordship Controversy
Present-day evangelicalism, by and large, ignores these warnings. The prevailing view of what constitutes saving faith continues to grow broader and more shallow, while the portrayal of Christ in preaching and witnessing becomes fuzzy. Anyone who claims to be a Christian can find evangelicals willing to accept a profession of faith, whether or not the person's behavior shows any evidence of commitment to Christ. In this way, faith has become merely an intellectual exercise. Instead of calling men and women to surrender to Christ, modern evangelism asks them only to accept some basic facts about Him.
This shallow understanding of salvation and the gospel, known as "easy-believism," stands in stark contrast to what the Bible teaches. To put it simply, the gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ's authority. This, in a nutshell, is what is commonly referred to as lordship salvation.
The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation
There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.
What, then, are the distinctives of lordship salvation? What does Scripture teach that is embraced by those who affirm lordship salvation but rejected by proponents of "easy-believism"? The following are nine distinctives of a biblical understanding of salvation and the gospel.
First, Scripture teaches that the gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25). It is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18-20). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that repentance is simply a synonym for faith and that no turning from sin is required for salvation.
Second, Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5). Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Ephesians 2:1-5, 8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Philippians 1:6; cf. Hebrews 11). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that faith might not last and that a true Christian can completely cease believing.
Third, Scripture teaches that the object of faith is Christ Himself, not a creed or a promise (John 3:16). Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). In other words, all true believers follow Jesus (John 10:27-28). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that saving faith is simply being convinced or giving credence to the truth of the gospel and does not include a personal commitment to the person of Christ.
Fourth, Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.
Fifth, Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3; Romans 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven. In contrast, according to easy-believism, only the judicial aspects of salvation (e.g., justification, adoption, and positional sanctification) are guaranteed for believers in this life; practical sanctification and growth in grace require a post-conversion act of dedication.
Sixth, Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Romans 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.
Seventh, Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Peter 1:8-9; Romans 8:28-30; 1 Corinthians 16:22). They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality.
Eighth, Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3). On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith.
Ninth, Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Corinthians 1:8). Those who later turn completely away from the Lord show that they were never truly born again (1 John 2:19). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that a true believer may utterly forsake Christ and come to the point of not believing.
Most Christians recognize that these nine distinctives are not new or radical ideas. The preponderance of Bible-believing Christians over the centuries have held these to be basic tenets of orthodoxy. In fact, no major orthodox movement in the history of Christianity has ever taught that sinners can spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior.
This issue is not a trivial one. In fact, how could any issue be more important? The gospel that is presented to unbelievers has eternal ramifications. If it is the true gospel, it can direct men and women into the everlasting kingdom. If it is a corrupted message, it can give unsaved people false hope while consigning them to eternal damnation. This is not merely a matter for theologians to discuss and debate and speculate about. This is an issue that every single pastor and lay person must understand in order that the gospel may be rightly proclaimed to all the nations. (John MacArthur)
An Introduction to Lordship Salvation
More: A 15-Year Retrospective on the Lordship Controversy
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I thought I'd made my point clear, but maybe not, the "cop out" was you chose not to give me a direct answer to the question, but I get why you were afraid to answer it...nothing I haven't seen before.
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Zachm531
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I answered your question directly. Whats your point? You took what i had said, misquoted me in question form. I responded with scripture and my clear answer. Is this supposed to prove your point? I havent seen you use scripture or even make an argument. Why even comment on the thread if you are just going to nit pick at peoples responses and not try to find a unified answer? Very sad that you feel the need to come off as superior.
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Simple yes or no question...Since salvation is a free gift, then are you saying we need do nothing to retain it after being saved by grace alone?
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Zachm531
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You can tell if someone is truly saved if you see a lifestyle change. If somebody is claiming to be saved but is unrepentant, thats called a false conversion. As James says, Faith without works is dead. BUT by grace through faith are we saved. But yes as direct as i can be, salvation is a free gift of God, if in return for a gift, i give you $10 then its not a gift anymore. Free gift, no works needed.
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Simple question. Are you asking how one who is born again of the Spirit and a new creation retains God’s Grace?
Simple question.
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Thanks for pointing that out, what exactly did I misquote, please? I need to know so I can avoid doing that in the future, and I honestly didn't realize I was doing that so not sure where to find it. Now if I didn't use quotes, I wasn't quoting you, if that helps any, meaning, if that is the case, you are making up excuses for not answering. But for the sake of fairness, I would still like to see it, and thanks for pointing it out.
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No, not at all, and I have no idea why you would think that. Here it is again so you can compare the two side by side, and just try to remember, one it the simple question I asked and the other is something you chose to pretend was my question, assumably because you were afraid to answer mine...here ya' go:
Since salvation is a free gift, then are you saying we need do nothing to retain it after being saved by grace alone?
Either answer it or don't, up to you, but I'm sure you'll agree, pretending it's another question is just a waste of our time, not to mention a bit strange.
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No idea how you got that idea...more empty accusations, and all I can figure is that happens when one runs out of defense and assumes attempting to demean their opponent is a substitute for unanswered questions and other lack of defense.
Why even join the discussion if you can't answer a few simple questions directly? Oh and you wanted scripture? Although I think your clutching at straws, just to create fault when there is none, as you have no right to dictate how I do my thing here...you get scripture when I ready to use scripture. Still the scripture you wanted, as well as that "unified answer" you wanted:
James 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
Then if someone is saved, has a positive lifestyle change then the change goes negative, and they choose to fall back into the world/sin, are they still saved or have they lost their salvation?
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In order to intelligently answer your question you must answer my question first:
Are you asking how one who is born again of the Spirit and a new creation retains God’s Grace?
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HatGuy
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My answer is yes.
Faith is what gets you in and faith is what keeps you in.
This faith is a gift from God.
This faith also produces good works, good fruit.
You don't 'do' anything to retain a free salvation given (otherwise it is not free).
But faith nevertheless does obey, does do good works - it may take time, but that is the outcome.
Christianity has always been about weakness, a fact that many forget in exchange for a Christianity for winners.
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Zachm531
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I HAVE ANSWERED ALL OF YOUR QUESTIONS BRO that James quote is the first verse you have used in this discussion.... read the entire chapter of James and notice the context. I make false accusations when j cant combat a claim? You havent made a claim! It seems as if youre a faith + works guy. If thats true you deny the books hebrews, Galatians, romans, ephesians and all of the gospels all for one verse in james
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