LDS The Mormon Adam Was Baptized & Held the Priesthood

He is the way said:

I have known at least one adult that was not mentally capable of speaking for themselves. I am sure there are many others. Actually I visited a mental institution many years ago and there were many adults that could not speak for themselves. So this is about people who can not speak for themselves. It should not be assumed that this is about infant baptism. Neither is infant baptism mentioned in the Bible.

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You are grasping at straw, and you know that.

-CryptoLutheran

"Don't assume this about the Bible and the early Church that we have evidence of going back to the first century; assume this other thing about the Bible and the early Church that we have no evidence of because I've been to a mental hospital."

Sound logic, that.

He is the way said:

Whether the Didache and the writings of the ancient fathers are correct or not would depend on when they were written and by whom they were written. Anyone can write about what they believe to be true. The Pharisees wrote many laws they deemed to be from God.

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The Didache was written in the mid-to-late 1st century. The word Didache means "Teaching", and is short for "Teaching of the Lord through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations". The Didache provides for us a kind of manual for instruction and teaching which would have been used for catechetical purposes in the nascent church. That is, it is the earliest catechetical tool we have, providing for ethical instruction, on how to conduct the sacraments, church discipline concerning traveling preachers, and a reminder about the end of the age.

The writings of the early fathers are well attested. We have the Epistle of Clement written by St. Clement of Rome, St. Peter's successor as bishop of Rome, writing to the church in Corinth around the year 90 AD; and possibly the same Clement who was one of St. Paul's missionary companions. We have the Epistles of St. Ignatius of Antioch, these being addressed to the churches in Ephesus, Magnesia, Tralles, Philadelphia, Smyrna, and Rome, as well as a letter to Polycarp the bishop of Smyrna. Ignatius, the bishop of Antioch, who was an old man at the time he wrote in 107 AD as he was being led in chains by Roman soldiers from Antioch to Rome in order to face his inevitable martyrdom. Ignatius had personally studied under St. John the Apostle, and succeeded Evodius as bishop of Antioch after Evoidus' death in 66 AD. Polycarp, who was close with Ignatius, was bishop of Smyrna and was one of the original recipients of the Apocalypse (written to the seven churches, one of which being Smyrna). He likewise wrote a letter to the Philippians, sometime between 110 and 140 AD, and around 150 AD suffered martyrdom by being burned alive. The record of Polycarp's mockery of a trial has him declaring boldly even in his advanced age at the time, "eighty and six years I have served Him, and He never did me any injury, how then could I blaspheme my King and Savior?" (note, here, that Polycarp who was 86 years old at the time of his death, say he has been a Christian for 86 years).

Likewise we have the writings of St. Justin, including his defenses of the Christian faith against the false claims of the Pagan accusers, directed to "the Emperor Titus Aelius Adrianus Antonius Pius Augustus Caesar, ... and to the sacred Senate, with the whole People of the Romans," Justin is named Justin Martyr because he, like so many others, faced the end of their days in martyrdom.

Further, we have St. Irenaeus, who became bishop of Lugdunnum (modern Lyons) in southern Gaul, had studied under Polycarp, and was acquainted with Polycarp and Ignatius' familiarity with the Apostles. Irenaeus wrote a massive tome against the Gnostics, a five volume work known as Against the Gnosis Falsely So-Called, aka Against Heresies. In this massive work he defends the apostolic teachings as they had been received from the beginning, having been safeguarded by men chosen by the apostles themselves, and publicly proclaimed and confessed in all the churches. He, likewise, attacks the false doctrines of the various Gnostic heretics for their obvious charlatanism and grift.

Along with Irenaeus we have St. Hippolytus of Rome, to whom the Apostolic Traditions are attributed, who along with Irenaeus had also been acquainted with Polycarp. Hippolytus, in addition to the Apostolic Traditions attributed to him, wrote a refutation against heresies, a treatise against the heretic Noetus (one of the advocates of the Sabellian heresy), as well as exegetical works which are now only known in fragmentary form.

Additionally in this period we have the works of Melitio of Sardis, Athenagorus of Athens, Theophilus of Antioch. We also have Tertullian of Carthage, but whose works are marred by his involvement with the Montanist heresy. Among many others. And this is only covering the period between the mid-to-end of the 1st century to the end of the 2nd century. Not yet even discussing the major figures and important work of those of the 3rd century and later.

-CryptoLutheran

BigDaddy4 said:

Context is key. Try it sometime.

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Through context people jump to conclusions and those conclusions are not always right.

ViaCrucis said:

The Didache was written in the mid-to-late 1st century. The word Didache means "Teaching", and is short for "Teaching of the Lord through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations". The Didache provides for us a kind of manual for instruction and teaching which would have been used for catechetical purposes in the nascent church. That is, it is the earliest catechetical tool we have, providing for ethical instruction, on how to conduct the sacraments, church discipline concerning traveling preachers, and a reminder about the end of the age.

The writings of the early fathers are well attested. We have the Epistle of Clement written by St. Clement of Rome, St. Peter's successor as bishop of Rome, writing to the church in Corinth around the year 90 AD; and possibly the same Clement who was one of St. Paul's missionary companions. We have the Epistles of St. Ignatius of Antioch, these being addressed to the churches in Ephesus, Magnesia, Tralles, Philadelphia, Smyrna, and Rome, as well as a letter to Polycarp the bishop of Smyrna. Ignatius, the bishop of Antioch, who was an old man at the time he wrote in 107 AD as he was being led in chains by Roman soldiers from Antioch to Rome in order to face his inevitable martyrdom. Ignatius had personally studied under St. John the Apostle, and succeeded Evodius as bishop of Antioch after Evoidus' death in 66 AD. Polycarp, who was close with Ignatius, was bishop of Smyrna and was one of the original recipients of the Apocalypse (written to the seven churches, one of which being Smyrna). He likewise wrote a letter to the Philippians, sometime between 110 and 140 AD, and around 150 AD suffered martyrdom by being burned alive. The record of Polycarp's mockery of a trial has him declaring boldly even in his advanced age at the time, "eighty and six years I have served Him, and He never did me any injury, how then could I blaspheme my King and Savior?" (note, here, that Polycarp who was 86 years old at the time of his death, say he has been a Christian for 86 years).

Likewise we have the writings of St. Justin, including his defenses of the Christian faith against the false claims of the Pagan accusers, directed to "the Emperor Titus Aelius Adrianus Antonius Pius Augustus Caesar, ... and to the sacred Senate, with the whole People of the Romans," Justin is named Justin Martyr because he, like so many others, faced the end of their days in martyrdom.

Further, we have St. Irenaeus, who became bishop of Lugdunnum (modern Lyons) in southern Gaul, had studied under Polycarp, and was acquainted with Polycarp and Ignatius' familiarity with the Apostles. Irenaeus wrote a massive tome against the Gnostics, a five volume work known as Against the Gnosis Falsely So-Called, aka Against Heresies. In this massive work he defends the apostolic teachings as they had been received from the beginning, having been safeguarded by men chosen by the apostles themselves, and publicly proclaimed and confessed in all the churches. He, likewise, attacks the false doctrines of the various Gnostic heretics for their obvious charlatanism and grift.

Along with Irenaeus we have St. Hippolytus of Rome, to whom the Apostolic Traditions are attributed, who along with Irenaeus had also been acquainted with Polycarp. Hippolytus, in addition to the Apostolic Traditions attributed to him, wrote a refutation against heresies, a treatise against the heretic Noetus (one of the advocates of the Sabellian heresy), as well as exegetical works which are now only known in fragmentary form.

Additionally in this period we have the works of Melitio of Sardis, Athenagorus of Athens, Theophilus of Antioch. We also have Tertullian of Carthage, but whose works are marred by his involvement with the Montanist heresy. Among many others. And this is only covering the period between the mid-to-end of the 1st century to the end of the 2nd century. Not yet even discussing the major figures and important work of those of the 3rd century and later.

-CryptoLutheran

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So do you agree with the writings of Tertullian of Carthage?

ViaCrucis said:

You are grasping at straw, and you know that.

-CryptoLutheran

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I know that children do not need baptism before the age of accountability.

He is the way said:

So do you agree with the writings of Tertullian of Carthage?

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Where he is in agreement with the true and catholic faith.

-CryptoLutheran

He is the way said:

I know that children do not need baptism before the age of accountability.

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And I know that Jesus Christ is for everybody, not just those we deem worthy based upon man-made arbitrary reasons.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

And I know that Jesus Christ is for everybody, not just those we deem worthy based upon man-made arbitrary reasons.

-CryptoLutheran

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All children who die before the age of accountability are saved in Christ, no baptism necessary.

He is the way said:

All children who die before the age of accountability are saved in Christ, no baptism necessary.

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You seem to be of the opinion that baptism is an obstacle God has placed in front of people that they need to overcome in order to be saved. That's the trouble when you start to turn God's gifts into works and operate on a "Do the right things in order to get saved" model.

The Sacraments aren't obstacles, the Sacraments aren't works we do in order to score points with God. The Sacraments aren't works we perform or accomplish in order to get salvation. The Sacraments are God's gifts, to us, through which His grace is at work.

God is the the one who Acts in the Sacraments.

Baptism isn't something we do in order to acquire something. Baptism is something God does through which He works His grace.

The question is not, "can unbaptized children still be saved?" Because of course they can. But that's not something I limit to only unbaptized children, but also of unbaptized adults. There are plenty of cases where, for various reasons, people have not received baptism--there are those who never heard the Gospel in the first place, there are those who perished before they could receive baptism such as the case of catechumens who were martyred, there are those who have not been properly instructed on the importance and meaning of baptism and so put it off by their own ignorance of the Sacrament. Whatever the case may be, it is simply not my place--or anyone's place other than God's--to say who is an isn't saved.

The Church doesn't decide who is and isn't saved, the Church's mission is to do as Christ instructed, and what does Christ instruct the Church to do?

"Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, and instructing them in all which I have told you."

All nations, πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, panta ta ethne--all peoples, all tribes, all groups of humans, all humans everywhere.

Only some people? No.
Only Jews? No.
Only Greeks? No.
Only freemen? No.
Only males? No.
Only women? No.
Only adults? No.

All people. Everyone. Panta ta ethne. Everyone.

"Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, but Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.' And he laid his hands on them and went away." - Matthew 19:13-15

"Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them. And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, 'Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.'" - Luke 18:15-17

"And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.'" - Acts 2:38-39

"But Paul cried with a loud voice, 'Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.' And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' And they said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.' And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his household. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God." - Acts 16:28-34


-CryptoLutheran

If we only ever baptized those who had reached some arbitrary mental category of "accountability", then presumably there are many types of people we would never baptize: babies and children below a given age (of course), the mentally handicapped, the psychopathic, etc. Yet we baptize all who come to us, either under the care of parents/godparents (as with babies and children) or on their own as independent adults.

Why would the Mormon religion, which clearly inherited this "age of accountability" idea from outside of itself (i.e., they can't claim to have "restored" this one as it is present in many preexisting forms of Protestantism which themselves inherited it from Rome, though Rome doesn't call it that), want to deny life-giving baptism to so many people based on the organization's fidelity to an abstract and arbitrary philosophical idea?

dzheremi said:

If we only ever baptized those who had reached some arbitrary mental category of "accountability", then presumably there are many types of people we would never baptize: babies and children below a given age (of course), the mentally handicapped, the psychopathic, etc. Yet we baptize all who come to us, either under the care of parents/godparents (as with babies and children) or on their own as independent adults.

Why would the Mormon religion, which clearly inherited this "age of accountability" idea from outside of itself (i.e., they can't claim to have "restored" this one as it is present in many preexisting forms of Protestantism which themselves inherited it from Rome, though Rome doesn't call it that), want to deny life-giving baptism to so many people based on the organization's fidelity to an abstract and arbitrary philosophical idea?

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It is the philosopher who is philosophic, and guesses as to the best path to God. A prophet or apostle of God is different. They receive their information directly from God. No abstract and arbitrary philosophical idea. But revelation. There is a great deal of difference.

Peter1000 said:

It is the philosopher who is philosophic, and guesses as to the best path to God. A prophet or apostle of God is different. They receive their information directly from God. No abstract and arbitrary philosophical idea. But revelation. There is a great deal of difference.

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And we have the prophetic and apostolic word, it's right there for anyone to see.

-CryptoLutheran

Peter1000 said:

It is the philosopher who is philosophic, and guesses as to the best path to God. A prophet or apostle of God is different. They receive their information directly from God. No abstract and arbitrary philosophical idea. But revelation. There is a great deal of difference.

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There is no new revelation. The faith is delivered once and for all to the saints (meaning Christians, not "Latter Day Saints"). Whatever your self-described prophets are receiving, it is not from God.

Phoebe Ann said:

In Mormonism, baptism may be a requirement but only particular baptism will contribute to salvation.

Baptism by immersion in water by one having authority is the first saving ordinance of the gospel and is necessary for an individual to become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to receive eternal salvation.
Baptism

Who baptized the Mormon Adam? Who was his bishop?

"This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life. "
Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, April, 1961, p. 119

"Therefore it was made clearly manifest that salvation is in the Church, and of the Church, and is obtained only through the Church."
Mark E. Petersen, Salvation Comes through the Church, Ensign, July 1973

"If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1979, p. 670)

Mormons claim that their teachings are the gospel. So whenever they use the word gospel, it refers to Mormonism. You must become a Mormon to "come unto Christ."

View attachment 267970
(This includes people of every denomination.)


"Getting people's spirits healed through conversion is the only way they can be healed. I know this is an unpopular doctrine and a slow way to solve the problems of men and nations. As a matter of fact, I am convinced that relatively few among the billions of earth's inhabitants will be converted. Nevertheless, I know and solemnly witness that there is no other means by which the sin-sick souls of men can be healed or for a troubled world to find peace. I know that the unbelieving will reject this divine way. But this is nothing new. They have been rejecting it ever since the time of Cain. They have from the beginning refused to accept Christ and his gospel. They killed the ancient prophets. They burned Abinadi. They stoned Samuel the Lamanite. They crucified the Lord himself. In our own day they martyred Joseph Smith, Jun., the great prophet of the restoration. But all that has happened in the past has not, and all that occurs in the future will not change the truth that conversion to Jesus Christ and his gospel is the one and only way; for still it must be said that 'there is none other way given under heaven by which men must be saved.' (See Acts 4:12.) To this I witness in solemn testimony."
Marion G. Romney, "Conference Report," October 1963, Afternoon Meeting, p.26

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Total blasphemy: Act_4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

ViaCrucis said:

You seem to be of the opinion that baptism is an obstacle God has placed in front of people that they need to overcome in order to be saved. That's the trouble when you start to turn God's gifts into works and operate on a "Do the right things in order to get saved" model.

The Sacraments aren't obstacles, the Sacraments aren't works we do in order to score points with God. The Sacraments aren't works we perform or accomplish in order to get salvation. The Sacraments are God's gifts, to us, through which His grace is at work.

God is the the one who Acts in the Sacraments.

Baptism isn't something we do in order to acquire something. Baptism is something God does through which He works His grace.

The question is not, "can unbaptized children still be saved?" Because of course they can. But that's not something I limit to only unbaptized children, but also of unbaptized adults. There are plenty of cases where, for various reasons, people have not received baptism--there are those who never heard the Gospel in the first place, there are those who perished before they could receive baptism such as the case of catechumens who were martyred, there are those who have not been properly instructed on the importance and meaning of baptism and so put it off by their own ignorance of the Sacrament. Whatever the case may be, it is simply not my place--or anyone's place other than God's--to say who is an isn't saved.

The Church doesn't decide who is and isn't saved, the Church's mission is to do as Christ instructed, and what does Christ instruct the Church to do?

"Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, and instructing them in all which I have told you."

All nations, πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, panta ta ethne--all peoples, all tribes, all groups of humans, all humans everywhere.

Only some people? No.
Only Jews? No.
Only Greeks? No.
Only freemen? No.
Only males? No.
Only women? No.
Only adults? No.

All people. Everyone. Panta ta ethne. Everyone.

"Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, but Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.' And he laid his hands on them and went away." - Matthew 19:13-15

"Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them. And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, 'Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.'" - Luke 18:15-17

"And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.'" - Acts 2:38-39

"But Paul cried with a loud voice, 'Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.' And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' And they said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.' And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his household. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God." - Acts 16:28-34


-CryptoLutheran

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You said:
"The question is not, "can unbaptized children still be saved?" Because of course they can. But that's not something I limit to only unbaptized children, but also of unbaptized adults. There are plenty of cases where, for various reasons, people have not received baptism--there are those who never heard the Gospel in the first place, there are those who perished before they could receive baptism such as the case of catechumens who were martyred, there are those who have not been properly instructed on the importance and meaning of baptism and so put it off by their own ignorance of the Sacrament. Whatever the case may be, it is simply not my place--or anyone's place other than God's--to say who is an isn't saved."

It is God's place and Jesus said:

(New Testament | John 3:3)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

He has given everyone a way for this to happen:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:29)

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

You quoted: "And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his household."

No infants mentioned there and nothing about infant baptism in the other verses.

dzheremi said:

If we only ever baptized those who had reached some arbitrary mental category of "accountability", then presumably there are many types of people we would never baptize: babies and children below a given age (of course), the mentally handicapped, the psychopathic, etc. Yet we baptize all who come to us, either under the care of parents/godparents (as with babies and children) or on their own as independent adults.

Why would the Mormon religion, which clearly inherited this "age of accountability" idea from outside of itself (i.e., they can't claim to have "restored" this one as it is present in many preexisting forms of Protestantism which themselves inherited it from Rome, though Rome doesn't call it that), want to deny life-giving baptism to so many people based on the organization's fidelity to an abstract and arbitrary philosophical idea?

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You said: "Why would the Mormon religion, which clearly inherited this "age of accountability" idea from outside of itself (i.e., they can't claim to have "restored" this one as it is present in many preexisting forms of Protestantism which themselves inherited it from Rome, though Rome doesn't call it that), want to deny life-giving baptism to so many people based on the organization's fidelity to an abstract and arbitrary philosophical idea?"

The age of accountability was not given as as an idea outside of the Book of Mormon:

(Book of Mormon | Moroni 8:9 - 11)

9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.
11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

Phoebe Ann said:

In Mormonism, baptism may be a requirement but only particular baptism will contribute to salvation.

Baptism by immersion in water by one having authority is the first saving ordinance of the gospel and is necessary for an individual to become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to receive eternal salvation.
Baptism

Who baptized the Mormon Adam? Who was his bishop?

"This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life. "
Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, April, 1961, p. 119

"Therefore it was made clearly manifest that salvation is in the Church, and of the Church, and is obtained only through the Church."
Mark E. Petersen, Salvation Comes through the Church, Ensign, July 1973

"If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1979, p. 670)

Mormons claim that their teachings are the gospel. So whenever they use the word gospel, it refers to Mormonism. You must become a Mormon to "come unto Christ."

View attachment 267970
(This includes people of every denomination.)


"Getting people's spirits healed through conversion is the only way they can be healed. I know this is an unpopular doctrine and a slow way to solve the problems of men and nations. As a matter of fact, I am convinced that relatively few among the billions of earth's inhabitants will be converted. Nevertheless, I know and solemnly witness that there is no other means by which the sin-sick souls of men can be healed or for a troubled world to find peace. I know that the unbelieving will reject this divine way. But this is nothing new. They have been rejecting it ever since the time of Cain. They have from the beginning refused to accept Christ and his gospel. They killed the ancient prophets. They burned Abinadi. They stoned Samuel the Lamanite. They crucified the Lord himself. In our own day they martyred Joseph Smith, Jun., the great prophet of the restoration. But all that has happened in the past has not, and all that occurs in the future will not change the truth that conversion to Jesus Christ and his gospel is the one and only way; for still it must be said that 'there is none other way given under heaven by which men must be saved.' (See Acts 4:12.) To this I witness in solemn testimony."
Marion G. Romney, "Conference Report," October 1963, Afternoon Meeting, p.26

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You said: "Who baptized the Mormon Adam? Who was his bishop?"

Adam was the first man, he did not have a bishop or a prophet. He was baptized by the same being who made Jesus Christ a high priest:

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:9 - 10)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.