Medieval Myths- Democracy is a Better System Than Monarchy

Ana the Ist said:

Prove it. I'm not accepting quotes from Crusades scholars who are talking about a brief moment and place in history. Prove that for hundreds of years this claim is true.

You're the one arguing against all historians here....prove your claim.

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Thanks once more for the discussion. I would ask you to prove your claims, you have been unable to do so or show one historian who would agree. Show me these "all historians" I disagree with. Of course you cannot even show one.


In my op and other threads i quote a dozen historians or more showing what is actually true. I have given you multiple leading medieval historians professors of top universities published in university press all saying the same thing. You have ignored these. They use material from the time period to prove their position. You reject all these leading historians instead rely on an unsources wiki section of an article. Further wiki recognized my sources as leading medieval historians. Thus you are a man at war with his own authority [unsources wiki] as well as at war with major leading medieval authorities. I am all for it but when your only reason to do so is a unsourced wiki article [who you are at war with otherwise] I cannot go along with you on your conspiracy theory. I would also want to let you know that the crusades spanned a long time period. From around 1000-1500. If you read my threads I consider the medieval time period at its earliest and latest around 500-1300 but it differs by country. The renaissance and roman/greek influences started as early as the 1300's.

Ana the Ist said:

Taxation in the Middle Ages (Classroom Activity)

Here's an article with multiple primary sources. Do you have any primary sources from 700-1400 AD backing up your claim?

Example...

(Source 7) Rolls of Parliament (1380)

The lords and commons are agreed that... three groats should be given from each lay person of the realm... who have reached the age of fifteen - except for genuine beggars who will be charged nothing... each person shall be charged equally.

That's the main problem here...there's plenty of literature and sources from the time period you're talking about that literally describe the taxes. You're claiming it's a "myth".

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Thanks for a source that used time period references. However first i must point out the years for sources. See not all fall within the medieval time period. Many come from renaissance absolute monarchies.

1620
1300
1180
1380
1620
1379
1380
1381
1984
2009
1984


So lets look at your example from 1380 in England. From your favorite source wiki

House of Commons of England - Wikipedia


The division of the Parliament of England into two houses occurred during the reign of Edward III: in 1341 the Commons met separately from the nobility and clergy for the first time, creating in effect an Upper Chamber and a Lower Chamber, with the knights and burgesses sitting in the latter. They formed what became known as the House of Commons, while the clergy and nobility became the House of Lords.


This of course is a move towards a republic/democracy rather than a monarchy. The renaissance and return to Roman law happened at different times in each country. We see it start here in the mid 14th century in England. And of the time period you speak


During the reign of the next monarch, Richard II, the Commons once again began to impeach errant ministers of the Crown. They began to insist that they could control both taxation and public expenditures.


Thus we see the origins and making of a legislative branch. This is not a feudal monarch I refer to in my op. This is the abandonment of a medieval feudal system to a mix between an absolute monarchy, and a republic. And with it, we see the expansion of government and legislature, thus this proves my op in so many ways. In fact these changed led to the English civil war.

“The feudal order, in fact, was very different from the monarchial order that replaced it [absolute monarchy] and to witch succeeded, in a still more centralized form, the order of state control that is found today.”
-Regine Pernoud Those Terrible Middle Ages Debunking the Myths Ignatius press San Francisco

“However In the course of many centuries these originally stateless societies [Feudal ] had gradually transformed into absolute – statist- monarchies.”
--Hans- Hermann Hoppe Democracy the God that Failed The Economics and Politics of Monarchy, Democracy and Natural Order Routledge 2001


The influence of the Crown was increased by the civil wars of the late fifteenth century, which destroyed the power of the great noblemen. Both houses of Parliament held little power during the ensuing years, and the absolute supremacy of the Sovereign was restored. The domination of the monarch grew further under the House of Tudor in the early sixteenth century as Henry VII grew fiscally independent....The first two Stuart monarchs, James I and Charles I, provoked conflicts with the Commons over issues such as taxation, religion, and royal powers. The differences between Charles I and Parliament were great, and resulted in the English Civil War, in which the armed forces of Parliament were victorious.




So that was just for fun. But you have claimed


".there's plenty of literature and sources from the time period you're talking about that literally describe the taxes. You're claiming it's a "myth"."



So I ask where did I claim taxes were a myth? You wont be able to do so. I said taxes were given at times by a Lord within his sphere, and agreed upon by the taxed population. Witch was almost always war time that the peasants wanted protection and agreed to pay the tax. It was not like a King could force tax and do what he wanted [see op] What I did say was

The “state” as we think of it today did not exists. Tax were not a regular occurrence and were usually only at various times.


Even your tax you references is a great example. It was a war tax. It was not to fund a legislature to govern people lives but a tax to protect the Kings realm and people who willingly paid to help the King in a war. But once again, that was no longer a feudal system.