Christ is the END of the Law

ttt

Do we then make void the law of God through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Rom 3:31

Hello, EZRA, you are mistaken completely in your approach  to WHICH LAW was always reffered to in scripture, and you are mistaken in the approach on how Messiah reigns in victory to Moses.

How do you not understand?

(I'll have to be quick today, i have many things to get done before the sun falls) You have heard, " You are no longer under law, but under grace".

In the greek, that sentence is literally, " You are no longer under the judgement (watch-overseered) by the law, You are under the judgement (watch- overseered) by grace.

We ALL know that when messiah came he came with a great amount of love hardly seen before- we can see it in a famous account with the way he handled the prostitute and also the woman at the well. a very   compassionate person. However, let it be KNOWN that he made the law of moses "HARDER" to the unbeliever and much more G-d glorifying to the believer. And those that find it hard to believe will say, "who can enter heaven?"

So in other words, grace is a much more Burdensome load to the unbeliever and much more easier to the believer...however, its still a bondage. think of the above verse in this way aswell

"you are  no longer in the bondage of law, you are in the bondage of grace."

There is MUCH much more to be said

But, regarding the scripture you had given, in greek, it is properly translated as thus:

Messiah(christ) is the fullness(limit[end], full capacity,transcendance, transfiguration) of the law.

therefore he does not end[abolish] the law but he is the END[fullness, limit, i.e. the farthest that it can go] of the law.

come out of babylon(place of confusion/confusianity-confusionism) my friend, and let us LIVE not just breathe.

Hi ezra
you said
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*For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death*.
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in total agreement with what is said here, your understanding i do not agree with

Mesisah followed the law and therefore as his human nature was concerened was given everlasting life. Why? because of what the law promises.
The torah promises to the persons that follow it will recieve life, those that break it will recieve death.
Messiah entire life was in total accordance with torah, therefore he recieved the Life that the law had to give. Out of the same law can spring forth two.
The la was never meant to be misused, but hasatan finds the way to use Gd against men...sin.
Sin is a trangression against the law...however, and i agree, when a person sins, they are to ask Gd for forgiveness because they trangrssed against G-d. Who is G-d? G-d is the law, the law shows his character. in Romans, Paulos says it was made to us what sin is- and we know that sin trangresses G-d and law. The law is the word of Gd from old, and all the prophets testified to the law. Read through every book in the OT and this will be seen. Even in the new jerusalem the sacrifices will resume in this new temple (read ezekiel) and this has not happened yet, it is a prophecy yet fulfilled.

The WORD was from the beginning (i.e. the law) even jews testify to this- the law is eternal. The law was with G-d and G-d was the law....and the law became flesh. when i say law, i reffer to the entire OT including the writtings and prophets that testify to this word that was given

There is the law of life and the law of sin and death. Since the law of sin and death is a perversion, the true one WILL overcome it. and so that is why death could not hold messiah- because he was the law (spirit of the law) of Life.

quick note...check out Galatians 5:13-24. Sheds much light on this subject. I'd copy it over here but I just got done typing it out on another thread (debating this with a mormon) and my fingers are starting to ache!

totally in a greement with scipture straight foward.
And i'll be straight foward
If the SPIRIT of the LAW(WORD-JESUS) is leading many in its way[what is it the Spirit of again? ] then what law is it fighting against?
In galatians, it shows that the law that is spoken against is the law of sin and death(sinfulnature) {galatians 5:18, 5:24}
If a person were to TRUELY love G-d, then the FRUITS of the spirit as described in gal 5:23 would exist in every individual of the believer, and ALSO the ones that the law speak against the believers will not do{ Gal 5:20}
and in total what is the fulfilment of law? LOVE! and the only way to FULFIL (end, accomplish, finish} law is through love. because
"IF YOU LOVE ME (the word-Messiah-law) you will obey my commands."
I know this is hard on many, and i know that many will fight this. but continue hard in your search for His truth and the confusion will slowly melt away from your eyes.

Hi Ezra.
You also misunderstand- you have no proof of what you believe.
no "christian" has proof, same as jews and moslems.
Only TRUE christians have proof.
And thanks for saying that i was in "confusion", its because I CHOOSE to be there. now you are confused because i said it as such. should i care to explain? no. if your eyes will be opened you'll see why, not just "hear" about it.

THE PURPOSE OF LAW is the SPIRIT/ the FULLNESS of the word which is Messiah.
I am not stuck in the old. Because the new is better. How? It grants a patience from Gd to me. and from Gd to the world
In the old, i would have already been done away with because of my sins
There are too many things to share on this, but i know what i speak of.

there are way too many things that will resume, the sacrifices will resume, the sabbaths will resume. And all of this hasnt happened yet world wide. All of these are prophesied.
Ethiopians will be blessed because they have kept the sabbath of Gd , and notice, DURING the time of Messiah.

Also here is another. In the day Messiah sets his tabernacle amoungst the people- Gentiles must make Aliyah to Jerusalem each year to worship the King and Holy one (who is Gd himself-messiah).
since I am of jewish background, when i read the NT I see many many many things that were done as you and others would put "under" the law.
However, it is not
why?
you misunderstand the usage and what they meant. I am not at all saying that i understand everything. However, i am saying that the NT is very much what christians consider "under" the law. By the judgement you have on me, the NT would be guilty aswell

shaklom friend
shabbat shalom

Ezra - Sojeru

What happens if the law is broken?

Hi Ezra

Messiah was the Messiah for the Jews, and then for the rest of Israel(i.e. samaritan and the others).
How was he intorduced to the Gentiles?? not as Messiah, because the gentiles had no reason to believe in a messiah, let along a Jewish one.
So how did paul an barnanbas introduce Messiah to the gentiles?? they presented him as creator of the universe, and of humanity and all living things- this the gentiles understood.
By their introduction to this GD that is "unknown" to them, they THEN understood that He(GD) is Messiah, the one who came to redeem Judah and Israel- and thus, they saw the light.
They saw the Jewish messiah for who he was, the savior of the world- because he was the creator of it- and thus he loved it.

But if anything jewish is NOT suposed to be within "christianity" then take out the Messiah, all jewishness will be taken away.
Messiah in his earthly form was a Jew,everything he was and is - is jewish, from the beginning he settled with a hebrew, and all of his children after that were the hebrews for 2000 yrs, and the first believers were hebrew.
That means the belief in messiah belongs to ONE of the tribes of the hebrews, which is the chief tribe of all the hebrews, Judah. The 12 were Jehudites, and so was Paul(benjamin- belonging to judah) and so was messiah the chief of the chief tribe.
I am not of the tribe of Judah
However, you ask me:
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There are too many Messianic Jews who want to be more Jewish than Christian. That violates the Law of Love. What say you?
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There are too many gentile "christians" that want the jews to give up their jewry which is against the LAW OF LOVE- which enables these jews to MORE properly fulfill their jewry. WHAT SAY YOU?

Christianity was known for 200 yrs to be a sect of judaism. However, until emperor hadrian destroyed and expelled jews and ordered of all those that worshipped on SABBATH to be killed, all of the people went into hiding practicing what they believe(non believing jews) and the believing jews practiced out side the roman provinces like africa and parts of arabia, but finally they had complete control. then here comes Constantine, establishing the worship of the sun- and those that took on Pseudo christianity accepted this. those that remained in shabbat were expelled.
This is even in early writtings.
And Constantine writtings speaks very harshly against Jews, and even against himself if he were to speak or look at a jew AND ANY that have the belief in messiah that worship on the sabbath.

The gentiles have taken it over.
Babylon was always gentile ruled, a greco-roman joint since 300 yrs before messiah i believe.

And Rome has taken it over, creating many little harlots- all of it gentile ruled. Who dominates christianity today? gentiles!
and out of all the christianities which one is greater, which one is the chief of christianity though many hate to admit, ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH and the CATHOLIC CHURCH, it is the "church" of rome- I am not saying that rome is mystery babylon. What i am saying is that all have come under that influence- and some have found the way out.
Many Messianic jews are still wrog in what they believe Though they hold onto law.
The Messiah is the word, and the Law is the word, and "GD was the word"
if you say the law is not the word then you lie.
Because if it wasnt the word, it SHOULD not be in the BIBLE, or IT SHOULD NOT be stated by GD that this MUST be observed forever, generation after generation, and a generation of back then were ppl that lived until about 90.
and GD says
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Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he [is] God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
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multiply 90 by 1000 and that would be alot more than we have already been through. Why is that? because they kept his commandments.
We only know of one that kept his commandments, and that would be Messiah, and his children bare the same blessing, ONLY, if they are able to do the same... why?

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, [and] hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
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we know that there are none righteous, because scripture says, save for GD- the Messiah, and paul says:

Phl 1:21 For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:

So it isnt paul and his unrighteousness that lives anymore, it is Messiah and His righteousness that lives inside the body called paul.
So now, this walking body is RIGHTEOUS because of who is in it- and it is not by pauls works that make hm righteous but because of Messiah's law fullfilling character that lives in him.
and manymessianics dont have this- nor do gentiles
so who has it?
Those that LET MESSIAH LIVE in them.

This is all well and good, but what are you saying? We (non Jewish believers) should become more Jewish?
I have to be honest I don't see a whole lot of difference between the two of your posistions. Help a slow brother out please!
tulc

Why do the words of Paul, who in his effort to convert gentiles obviously has a situation with them and the requirement of the Law, contradict directly with the allegeded words of Jesus who says the Law is not only still authoritive, but he raises the bar by stressing the inner person in regard to the Law and not just the acts?

Hi Behe's Boy,
you asked
What happens if the law is broken?
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Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
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Messiah also shows us sin:
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Jhn 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
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so the law(messiah the word) shows sin- i.e. adam and eve, Gd gave them a law(messiah the word) and they broke it and now all men have touched that fruit because of them- so we are born into sin.

If there was no law, then there wold be no sin that wouldnt make Gd the holy Gd he is.
His law shows His holiness(i.e. mnt Sinai) in other Gd is not to be messed with by ANY means.
Take away his law, you take away a tigers' claws and teeth.

what happens to those that sin[which is a transgression against law- which is an offense against Gd]
Pro 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
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how do we know what sin is?? Gd's word, his law.
If Gd took away the offence, MEANS he took away the sin that offends him that trangresses the law- IT DOES NOT MEAN that he took away his word(law) that imputed the sin- It means that in the believer he takes away THAT SIN that Offends and trangresses law. if he didnt, and only chnaged what HE HIMSELF feels about what offends him, GD changed, and went against His own word, which would mean that Gd is not trustworthy. He would be a weak GD.
How could I say such a thing?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
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He is Justified IN ALL THE WORDS he says. and so I put GD to the test in what he says to see if he can be trustworthy, He cannot go against his word.

The law, was an additional covenant to the lcovenant of avraham, made with his children. Gd introduced to them how laws concerning contracts should be dealt with even with this act. HIS ACT, not ours

This is what happens when we sin/break his word(messiah)/ his law:

Lev 26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, [but] that ye break my covenant:
Lev 26:16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
Lev 26:17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
Lev 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
Lev 26:23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things{ in what things?? his law!!}, but will walk contrary unto me;
Lev 26:24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
Lev 26:25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of [my] covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
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and it continues,
That is what happens when we , notice, DELIBERATELY/PRE_MEDITATEDLY, KNOWINGLY [if weak or not], SIN AGAINST GD.
because
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
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How is a person granted righteousness?
By believing in what GD can DO. THE CHARACTER OF GD is the law, BUT GD is SPIRIT, SO HE IS THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW/ THE SPIRIT OF THE WORD/ THE SPRIT OF MESSIAH/ GD IS THE SPIRIT OF GD!
and IF THIS SPIRIT LIVES, and I MEAN LIVES within a person, then it is GD who exerts his character, his word, his Messiah, which is HIS LAW.

how do we know there is a chance for those that sin unknowingly?

Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

Messiah is the High priest, and he made atonement for us, and only those that acknowledge the sacrifice will be forgiven ( in true repentance, i.e. Do the sins that they found out were sins and the sins they already knew NO MORE[ Gd took away the offence])
Messiah LIVES to be PERFECTED in the human- i.e. to perfect that human soul, and he will not let death come to that human until he has finished his work. and when they die, they are taken out(the humans) the same way that Messiah was taken out- by being killed, by no other means other than this. it could be an accident, etc. but they must be killed, it CANNOT be by any other means.
But "christians", Jews, moslems and the world walk meekly to their graves.

but any who, the soul that sinneth(deliberately) shall die.

shalom

and if you know of the sins that you do- "SIN NO MORE"

bless you doctrine 1st. indeed that is the intent of paul and mesiah
Paul taught the gentiles as James reffered to the noahide laws what they SHOULD do to be allowed to mingle and sit with jews.
The law does speak against the people of Israel joining with gentiles(those outside of the assembly) and by the issue that messiah gave to go to all nations, the garments that wasand IS required to put on those gentiles that want to believe is the noahide laws(in the book of acts) so that they can come into the synagogues as GD fearers, to hear the law(the word- the messiah) from the law that Moses brought- he showed the FEAR THE HOLINESS of GD.
EVERYTHING, and i repeatEVERYTHING in the new testament is jewish
even from the death of messiah, ANd the CROSS, and the tearing of the veil in the temple, ALL OF IT IS JEWISH, or GD's law

however this is NOT TO BE MISTAKEN with jewish law, GDs law is GDs law, jewish law is the fences that the rabbis put up around the law which some have very good motive and intention, but are not to observe as if it was the law of GD, they are only the laws of man. BUT THE LAW of GD/SPIRIT/WORD/MESSIAH is eternal and was from the beginning.

hi tulc,

shalom



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And Rome has taken it over, creating many little harlots- all of it gentile ruled. Who dominates christianity today? gentiles!
and out of all the christianities which one is greater, which one is the chief of christianity though many hate to admit, ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH and the CATHOLIC CHURCH, it is the "church" of rome-

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The Roman Catholic Church and the Catholic Church are the same. No need to state it twice. In fact, the actual name is Catholic Church. "Roman" merely refers to the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, as opposed to the "Eastern" Rite. Both believe the same thing - they do have small differences, but not of faith. The "Eastern" Rite allows for married priests.

I am not saying that rome is mystery babylon. What i am saying is that all have come under that influence- and some have found the way out.

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Is that a good thing?

the churches of rome have influenced almost the entirety of the belief if they have not done so completely.
the reason why i say almost, is because few believe WHAT the SCRIPTURES TEACH us to BELIEVE.
and some catholics state that there is a division between catholic and roman catholic, that is why i state it as such my friend.

I do see that Babyon ( a place of confusion) is BAD, however, it is good when a person realizes all the confusion- because this will cause that person to search and eventually find if they keep on in the search, and eventually lead them to a true repentance and forgiveness- which is the salvation that was taught in scripture.

The place of confusion is ALL OVER the earth.
ALL religions HAVE borrowed from GDs word and twisted it.
Even the jews have twisted the meaning of His word because of the advent of messiah in which they do not want to believe.

Babylon is the place of confusion, and moslems are confused and they are not catholic, however they sprung off a twisted meaning of Gds word , and so islam IS a sect of Judaism AND christianity. however more of christianity because it also does away with Gds law but believes in messiah but not in him as the ONLY son of GD nor that He is GD.

Some "christians" believe that Messiah was ONLY a man and not GD aswell. Some say that He was "adopted" as the son of GD and there was no virgin conception, but these hold on that they are christians. so if these say they are christians, well Islam is only a major sect of christianity.

today's major christianity IS NOT a sect of judaism, it is its own, a gentile belief

The 1st century , christianity was a major sect IN JUDAISM, it was and still is TRUE JUDAISM--- or in other words JUDAHism, for messiah was the chief of JUDAH and brought the belief to Judah AND some of Judah (which was many) believed.
EVERYTHING in the New testament REFLECTS or rather Magnifies the OLD testament.
I'll share a few things if any of you are willing to recieve it if it is Proven as truth- a perfect reflection on both the new and old.
i can go on, but.......
Babylon(confusion) has covered the earth
So come out of her my people

seriously

shalom
I'll be gone for about a week starting the 2nd day (monday)