Preterism - separating the orthodox from the heretical.

Erik Nelson · Oct 31, 2019

parousia70 said:
If Honesty is truly valued in this study, we should recognize and affirm that one does not have to be a Full Preterist to understand the passing away of the old covenant "Heaven and Earth" has already taken place for us:

C.H. Spurgeon (NOT a Full Preterist) On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

Honestly, the hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone. The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

COMMON OLD TESTAMENT USES OF "HEAVEN AND EARTH"

(1) The witness to the Covenant between Jehovah and Israel was "Heaven and Earth"

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

Deuteronomy 4:26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:

Leviticus 26:19
And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

Psalms 50:4
He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

Isaiah 1:2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me

(2) Israel's institution as a Nation under Moses and Joshua was the planting of Heavens and Earth

Isaiah 51:15-16
For I am Yahweh your God, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar: Yahweh of Hosts is his name. I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, You are my people.

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

(3) The "shaking/removal of Heavens and Earth" describes any of Jehovah's judgments upon nations and individuals

Against Ancient Babylon
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 51:48
Then the heaven and the earth, and all that [is] therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD

Against King Saul
Psalms 18:7-10
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills removed and were shaken, because he was wroth ... He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

Against Persia during Zerubbabel's Day
Haggai 2:21
Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth

So, getting back to the use of the phrase as it was used by Jesus and the writer of Hebrews, we can see that Jesus didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom.

Full Preterism Not Required.

most of your OT citations are "call heaven & earth" as witnesses to the contractual obligations of Israel to God in heaven -- obviously because heaven & earth will continue to exist for thousands of years to witness against apostasy

most of the rest are "earth shook & trembled" -- damaged but not destroyed

But Matthew 24:36 = "heaven & earth shall pass away" = destroyed not merely damaged

And all of the OD after Matthew 24:35-36 = 2C @ FJ

The parallels between the OD, 1 Thess 4-5, 2 Thess 2, 2 Peter 3 all show that the "heaven & earth pass away" = future 2C @ FJ

Very sure that in this case, the terms "heaven & earth pass away" into the "new heavens & new earth" must mean what @BABerean2 is interpreting them to mean:

BABerean2 · Oct 31, 2019

parousia70 said:
If Honesty is truly valued in this study, we should recognize and affirm that one does not have to be a Full Preterist to understand the passing away of the old covenant "Heaven and Earth" has already taken place for us:

C.H. Spurgeon (NOT a Full Preterist) On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

Based on the verses below the Old Covenant did not pass away in 70 AD.
It occurred about 40 years earlier.

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
(Quoted from the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Heb 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, (Mount Sinai)
Heb 12:19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."
Heb 12:21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 31, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Based on the verses below the Old Covenant did not pass away in 70 AD.
It occurred about 40 years earlier.
Heb 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, (Mount Sinai)
Heb 12:19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,

Good verses....2 mountains/covenants enter, 1 mountain leaves..........70AD [unless 1 includes 73AD Masada]

Galatians 4:24 which things is an allegory. For these are the two Covenants, one indeed from mount Sinai into servitude generating who-any is Hagar. 25 For the Hagar mount Sinai is in Arabia is together-elemental yet to now Jerusalem slaving/serving with the offpspring of Her.

Joshua 6 [7 Priests-7 trumpets-shofars] and Revelation [7 Messengers-7 trumpets]

Hebrews 12:18 For you have not come to a mountain that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and to blackness, darkness, storm, 19 the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which those who heard it begged that not one more word should be spoken to them,

Revelation 8:8 And the second messenger trumpets,
and as it were a great Mountain with fire burning was cast into the Sea, and the third of the sea became blood,

Hebrews 12:22 But ye have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable multitudes of angels,

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.
=====================
The Chronology of the First Jewish Revolt According to Josephus

Revelation 8 Commentary- Plagued by Trumpets

The Roman Assault on Israel Began around the Feast of Trumpets Hence the Seven Trumpets of Revelation—Thus Began the Jewish War.

In A.D. 66 while Judea was aflame in bloodshed, riot and revolt, Rome responded by sending the 12th legion in addition to thousands of auxiliaries from neighboring kingdoms. These troops, as if orchestrated by God, arrived in Jerusalem in the Jewish month of Tishri, a month that begins with the Feast of Trumpets. Called the Day of Judgment, it is on this day that trumpets sound the somber days of atonement and final judgment (Leviticus 23:24, Numbers 29:1). Thus began the Jewish War.3
The A.D. 70 Doctrine View, Interpretation, Exposition and Commentary of Revelation 8: In Every Event that Fulfills the Seven Trumpets of Revelation an Audible Trumpet Sound Was Heard.

The Sound Of The Trumpet

The Apostle Paul used the Roman military trumpet as a metaphor for spiritual battle. First-century historian Josephus wrote that the Roman army did nothing, except by trumpet signals. He listed three specific trumpet sounds, all of which can be devotionally applied.

The first trumpet was a signal to prepare to depart. "Now when they are to go out of their camp, the trumpet gives a sound."(1) The Bible believer should be ready to depart swiftly for any field of conflict as ordered, always ready to fight the good fight of faith (1 Tim. 6:12; 2 Tim. 4:7).

The second trumpet was a signal to form up: "Then do the trumpets sound again, to order them to get ready for the march."(1) At this stage, a believer should have on the whole armor of God. The Lord wants skilled warriors, lined up with others, who will do battle against the wiles of the Devil (Eph. 6:11).

The third trumpet sound was the order to march: "Then do the trumpets give a sound a third time, that they are to go out."(1) Some have suggested that this is the equivalent of "the last trumpet" that Paul referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:52 concerning the Rapture of the church: Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (1 Cor. 15:51-52).

This trumpet may also point to the personal resolve of a believer to march out to serve Christ, to stand against all challenges to God's kingdom, and to be willing to endure hardships like a good soldier (2 Tim. 2:3).

Erik Nelson · Nov 1, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Galatians 4:24 which things is an allegory. For these are the two Covenants, one indeed from mount Sinai into servitude generating who-any is Hagar. 25 For the Hagar mount Sinai is in Arabia is together-elemental yet to now Jerusalem slaving/serving with the offpspring of Her.

Joshua 6 [7 Priests-7 trumpets-shofars] and Revelation [7 Messengers-7 trumpets]

Hebrews 12:18 For you have not come to a mountain that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and to blackness, darkness, storm, 19 the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which those who heard it begged that not one more word should be spoken to them,

Revelation 8:8 And the second messenger trumpets,
and as it were a great Mountain with fire burning was cast into the Sea, and the third of the sea became blood,

Hebrews 12:22 But ye have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable multitudes of angels,

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.
=====================
The Chronology of the First Jewish Revolt According to Josephus

Revelation 8 Commentary- Plagued by Trumpets

The Roman Assault on Israel Began around the Feast of Trumpets Hence the Seven Trumpets of Revelation—Thus Began the Jewish War.

The Sound Of The Trumpet

"Already but not yet" doctrine ?

Galatians 4:24 = Hebrews 8:13 = OC + NC both in effect during 30-70 AD transition period until "old finally taken away" ?

When did the Old covenant pass away?

Erik Nelson · Nov 3, 2019

Hebrews 1:6 = Deuteronomy 32:43

when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says, “Let all God’s angels worship him”

=

Rejoice, you nations, with His people,
and let all the angels worship him,
for he will avenge the blood of his servants,
he will take vengeance on his enemies,
and make atonement for his land and people

Saint Paul, student of Rabbi Gamaliel, is saying that:

gentile nations rejoicing with God's people (Deut 32:43)
=
God bringing His firstborn Christ into the world (Heb 1:6)

That part makes sense, Christ founds the Church which unites rejoicing gentile believers with the Apostles & Jewish believers.

Evidently, Saint Paul is then arguing further, that all of the ensuing "vengeance on enemies for servants" somehow indicates the angels were worshipping the Son, not the Father, as you might expect just reading Deut 32:43 by itself...

Saint Paul must be responding to something very subtle in the Hebrew, like God promising Abraham a "seed singular" not "seeds plural" or something vaguely like that??

I thought I could get this to make sense, but I still don't see how Saint Paul gets "him" in Deut 32:43 to "slide" from God the Father to the Son?

Maybe it's the preceding verses? Deut 32:39-42 are all in the First Person, God the Father [1st Person of Godhead] is speaking, "I will take vengeance" and the like...

then suddenly in Deut 32:43, the speech is in the Third Person, "His people, Angels worship Him, He will avenge"...

Somehow St. Paul is cuing in on that grammatical shift, from "I" to "He"... and inferring a shift from Father to Son ??

Maybe a simpler answer, is that Paul is referring to another Scripture, wherein God tests the Angels to worship humanity, which sparks the rebellion of the fallen angels ?

Erik Nelson · Nov 3, 2019

Erik Nelson · Nov 3, 2019

Philippians 2:9-11 = Matthew 28:18

Resurrection + Ascension = exaltation > Angels

Erik Nelson · Nov 3, 2019

think I figured out what Paul was thinking

text says God commands His Angels to worship "him"

but God's Angels automatically worship God, or else they are fallen angels, not His angels!

So, they only way God commanding His Angels to worship "him" makes any sense, is if "him" is some other Divine member of the Godhead, which the Angels would have to be told to worship as well

mkgal1 · Nov 3, 2019

I think that's correct - meaning Jesus, God incarnate, is the one that the angels were to worship.

The HCSB lists Psalm 97:6-7 as a parallel verse to Hebrews 1:6 and Deuteronomy 32:43.

Erik Nelson · Nov 3, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I think that's correct - meaning Jesus, God incarnate, is the one that the angels were to worship.

The HCSB lists Psalm 97:6-7 as a parallel verse to Hebrews 1:6 and Deuteronomy 32:43.

understand that is because the modern Hebrew Masoretic text, which Protestant Bibles rely on, no longer has the line Paul actually quotes from Deut 32:43

without that phrase, the next best parallel is Ps 97:7

However, the Greek & Latin LXX and Hebrew DSS all have the phrase, and Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho the Jew explicitly ties Hebrews 1:6 --> Deut 32:43 (full version)

parousia70 · Nov 5, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
"Already but not yet" doctrine ?

Galatians 4:24 = Hebrews 8:13 = OC + NC both in effect during 30-70 AD transition period until "old finally taken away" ?

Similar to, and reflecting of the typology of the 40 year wandering in the desert.

They were immediately Free from the Bondage of Egypt on day 1, but not yet completely free in the covenanted promised land until year 40, a generation later.

The NT saints were immediately free from the bondage of the Law at the cross, but not yet fully in the new covenant promised land until 40 years later, a generation away.

The Church was not born "full grown" on day 1.

mkgal1 · Nov 5, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
understand that is because the modern Hebrew Masoretic text, which Protestant Bibles rely on, no longer has the line Paul actually quotes from Deut 32:43

without that phrase, the next best parallel is Ps 97:7

However, the Greek & Latin LXX and Hebrew DSS all have the phrase, and Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho the Jew explicitly ties Hebrews 1:6 --> Deut 32:43 (full version)

Oh.....it had listed both passages (Ps 97:6-7 and Deut 32:43) as parallel to Hebrews 1:6.

BABerean2 · Nov 6, 2019

parousia70 said:
Similar to, and reflecting of the typology of the 40 year wandering in the desert.

They were immediately Free from the Bondage of Egypt on day 1, but not yet completely free in the covenanted promised land until year 40, a generation later.

The NT saints were immediately free from the bondage of the Law at the cross, but not yet fully in the new covenant promised land until 40 years later, a generation away.

The Church was not born "full grown" on day 1.

Since modern Orthodox Jews renewed animal sacrifices in Jerusalem this year, does that mean the Church is not now "full grown"?

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Heb 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, (Mount Sinai)
Heb 12:19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."
Heb 12:21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

Erik Nelson · Nov 6, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Since modern Orthodox Jews renewed animal sacrifices in Jerusalem this year, does that mean the Church is not now "full grown"?

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Heb 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, (Mount Sinai)
Heb 12:19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."
Heb 12:21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

if it's due to deception, it doesn't truly mean anything?

70ad was God's judgement prophesied in Daniel, this is not?

BABerean2 · Nov 6, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
if it's due to deception, it doesn't truly mean anything?

70ad was God's judgement prophesied in Daniel, this is not?

Is there anything in the Book of Daniel about the Church not being "fully grown" until 70 AD?

.

mkgal1 · Nov 6, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Since modern Orthodox Jews renewed animal sacrifices in Jerusalem this year, does that mean the Church is not now "full grown"?

Modern Orthodox Judaism is a completely separate religion from Christianity.

ETA: Modern Orthodox Judaism - as I understand it - bases their beliefs on text (the Babylonian Talmud) that was written about 500 years after Christ Jesus.

BABerean2 · Nov 6, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Modern Orthodox Judaism is a completely separate religion from Christianity.

You are correct.

And the religion of the Pharisees between Calvary and 70 AD falls into the same category...

Mat 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
Mat 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Mat 23:16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'
Mat 23:17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
Mat 23:18 And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'
Mat 23:19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
Mat 23:20 Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
Mat 23:21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
Mat 23:22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
Mat 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
Mat 23:24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
Mat 23:25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
Mat 23:26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Mat 23:29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.'
Mat 23:31 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt.
Mat 23:33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,
Mat 23:35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Mat 23:38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;

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mkgal1 · Nov 6, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Modern Orthodox Judaism is a completely separate religion from Christianity.

BABerean2 said:
You are correct.

And the religion of the Pharisees between Calvary and 70 AD falls into the same category...

The same category of "separate"? If so - yes. Their "god" was their power and control. That's most evident, IMO, in John 11:48:

John 11:48 ~ If we let Him go on like this, everyone will believe in Him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

The early church's worst enemy (ISTM) were the Judaizers that wanted to drag the believers of Christ back under the Law for their salvation. However......it doesn't seem to me that it was that clearly cut - because the counterfeit High Priests were still officiating and partnering with the Roman government - and Paul and Peter never said to the early church (prior to the destruction of the Temple).....anything like, "Don't worry about the Law.....we're under a New Covenant and have our own High Priest now". Instead.....when the Judaizers came up against the early church - they formed a council in order to discuss what should and shouldn't be adhered to related to the Law (especially for the new Gentile believers)....and the final decision was to follow the dietary laws from the Mosaic Law that were protection from being drawn back into idolatry (to follow "these necessary things") .

This happened around 48 A.D. ~

Acts 15:23-29 ~
`The apostles, and the elders, and the brethren, to those in Antioch, and Syria, and Cilicia, brethren, who [are] of the nations, greeting;
24 seeing we have heard that certain having gone forth from us did trouble you with words, subverting your souls, saying to be circumcised and to keep the law, to whom we did give no charge,
25 it seemed good to us, having come together with one accord, chosen men to send unto you, with our beloved Barnabas and Paul --
26 men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ --
27 we have sent, therefore, Judas and Silas, and they by word are telling the same things.
28 `For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, no more burden to lay upon you, except these necessary things:
29 to abstain from things offered to idols, and blood, and a strangled thing, and whoredom; from which keeping yourselves, ye shall do well; be strong!'

So, the way I see it, the early church was warned about two evils..... their "corrupt generation" (led by the zealots and the corrupt Pharisees you've mentioned) and the idolatry they were surrounded with (especially in the Gentile areas).

Acts 2:40: Then Peter continued preaching for a long time, strongly urging all his listeners, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation!”

BABerean2 · Nov 6, 2019

mkgal1 said:
and Paul and Peter never said to the early church (prior to the destruction of the Temple).....anything like, "Don't worry about the Law.....we're under a New Covenant and have our own High Priest now".

The Apostle Paul compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" in the passage below.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

The author of the Book of Hebrews said we have not come to Mount Sinai, but instead to the New Covenant in the passage below.

Heb 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,
Heb 12:19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."
Heb 12:21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

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mkgal1 · Nov 6, 2019

BABerean2 said:
The Apostle Paul compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" in the passage below.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Something would have to be present in order to cast it out - would it not? Otherwise.....the author of Hebrews would be writing that in the past tense (and - as in the times AFTER the destruction of the Temple - there'd be no option to even go back to the Law of Moses).

Preterism - separating the orthodox from the heretical.

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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