Why does God only create things that can be explained by natural processes?

Semper-Fi · Oct 26, 2019

ilovechloe said:
Science has a fairly good understanding of the processes that created the universe after the big bang, it dosn't need a supernatural explanation, because it can all be explained by natural forces.

They have no idea what caused the spark,
that started the bib bang theory.

truefiction1 · Oct 26, 2019

klutedavid said:
Christianity was never about any factional church movement, nor for that matter, any church tradition. Christianity has only ever been about believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Christianity has always been about the entry into God's Community (Family) - the Church. The spirit of anti-Christian rugged individualism that is one of the hallmarks of what is thought of by many as being Christendom has never been appropriate, nor ever will be.

klutedavid · Oct 26, 2019

truefiction1 said:
Christianity has always been about the entry into God's Community (Family) - the Church. The spirit of anti-Christian rugged individualism that is one of the hallmarks of what is thought of by many as being Christendom has never been appropriate, nor ever will be.

The church is the fellowship of believers in Jesus Christ, people that believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Tradition means the tradition that the apostles handed down, not some factional tradition of which there are many.

All church tradition differs in doctrine.

The pure doctrine is what the apostles taught.

PaulCyp1 · Oct 26, 2019

Really? What "natural process" brought the universe into existence? Oh, wait a minute - the universe is the sum total of all existing natural entities and processes, isn't it?

Woke · Oct 26, 2019

ilovechloe said:
Science has a fairly good understanding of the processes that created the universe after the big bang, it dosn't need a supernatural explanation, because it can all be explained by natural forces.

The same goes for biology, evolution is a good explanation of all of the different life forms that exist on the planet.

So why dosnt/didnt god ever create anything that cant be explained naturally. Something that has no other possible explanation other than being created by a god?

For example, when god wrote the 10 commandments, why use stone, which was the technology of the day, when God would have to have known it would only get broken. Why not carve the 10 commandments on a metal that could not possibly have existed back then, such as titanium, or even a metal that hasnt been invented yet. Something that would last for thousands of years & still be around today, & that could not possibly have a natural explanation?

And why rely on humans to write the bible? Why not write it himself, again on a medium that hadnt been invented in the day instead of papyrus that is prone to fall to bits. It could have been a magical book, that never deteriorates, & that automatically translates itself into whatever language the person reading it unnderstands? Again this could not be explained by natural forces, or even humans creating it, because the technology never existed, & still dosnt exist even today.

This could have avoided all the copying & translation errors that have occured, as well as the problem of people changing the text to suit their own ends that happened in the early days. It could also have avoided all of the arguments over how to interpret the bible, that has resulted in (apparently) around 30,000 different christian denominations in the world today, all with their own interpretations of what the text means.

Your premise is incorrect. There are things that cannot be explained naturally. God contacting people and giving them messages of the future; angels contacting people; demons contacting people; God performing miracles; if you believe in the big bang what came before the big bang; why the geological developmental sequence of the Earth is found on the first page of the Bible, when scientists only discovered that sequence through paleontology and other disciplines, while paleontology is a science that didn't develop until the 1800s; unmeasurable (meaning unknown) energy sources affecting all heavenly bodies, labeled Dark Energy and Dark Matter. Why the heavenly bodies are speeding up in moving away from each other, instead of slowing down due to gravitational attraction? Those are a few things man has not been able to find answers to. Also, some scientists believing in super-string theory claim there are multiple dimensions man cannot see, 10-21 of them. And multiple dimensions sounds like the spirit realm, since spirit beings are claimed to have bodies in scripture, but we cannot see them.

Woke · Oct 27, 2019

Okay, look up where scientists believe the energy that started the big bang came from. You will find they claim it came from another universe. Another universe? Sounds religious doesn't it? The thing is they don't know what else is in that OTHER UNIVERSE. And that is the most important question they cannot answer.

truefiction1 · Oct 27, 2019

klutedavid said:
The church is the fellowship of believers in Jesus Christ, people that believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Tradition means the tradition that the apostles handed down, not some factional tradition of which there are many.

All church tradition differs in doctrine.

The pure doctrine is what the apostles taught.

That's why it's vital to be a member of the one, holy Apostolic Church, whose Tradition is handed down and Living, as well as Life-giving because the Holy Spirit is breathing within it.

Just because someone, (or many of such someone's) believes in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, does not mean that they know Who Christ is, or teach correctly about Who He is. The Tradition of the Apostles is preserved in the historical Church of the Apostles. There's no sense in looking anywhere else for it, except when circumstances dictate otherwise.

Strong in Him · Oct 27, 2019

ilovechloe said:
I am not a biblical scholar, however I have read a lot of work written BY biblical scholars, so I am deferring to their expertise.

It is fairly certain that Mark Chapter 16, verses 9-20 were added later, as they are not found in any of the early manuscripts of Mark until the 4th century.

It's true that this was not found in the earliest manuscripts, yes. I read that this comment was added later as a comment on the early church's ministry - telling of what was happening.
However, it was still seen fit to include these words in Scripture and the canon of the Bible. And this is not at all the same as someone "changing the text to suit their own ends", which was your original claim.

ilovechloe said:
The famous words attributed to Jesus "He who is without sin among you, let him cast the 1st stone" also is not found in early manuscripts of John, & is thought to be a later interpolation sometime in the 3rd Century. This saying is also not found in any of the other Gospels.

John includes several things that are not in any of the other Gospels.
Again, it may have been added later, it was still included, and kept, in Scripture when the Bible was compiled.

ilovechloe said:
The entire 21st chapter of the Gospel of John is thought to have been added later, sometime in the early 1st Century. The early Christian theologian Tertullian who wrote an entire discourse on the Gospel of John, seems to have not known of the 21st chapter.

Still not proof that the words of Scripture were "changed to suit their own ends", as per your original claim.

ilovechloe said:
Luke 22:19 & Luke 22:20 regarding the last supper is missing from the earliest manuscripts. Also not mentioned in any of the other gospels.

Not being mentioned in the other Gospels does not mean that it was added later.
Luke 22:19 is in 1 Corinthians 11:24 - and the epistles were written before the Gospels were.

ilovechloe said:
These are just SOME of the interpolations that are thought to have been added to the Gospels at a later date. There are many more of these.

Even if they were added, that is not the same as people "changing the text to suit their own ends".
These verses are in the Bible as we have it now.

Strong in Him · Oct 27, 2019

ilovechloe said:
I was raised a Christian, & have going to church on & off all my life.

Not making a judgement, but being raised a Christian and going to church does not make someone a Christian.
A Christian is someone who believes the Christian Gospel; that Jesus was, and is, God who came to this world to offer his life as a sacrifice for our sins and reconcile us to God, Matthew 26:28, Mark 10:45, Luke 19:10, John 1:29, Acts of the Apostles 4:12, Romans 5:8, Romans 5:11, 2 Corinthians 5:18. Three days after he was crucified, Jesus was raised from the dead, ascended to heaven and sent his Holy Spirit to live in his followers. This Holy Spirit gives gifts to us and, being God's Spirit who knows the mind and will of God, inspired people to write the Bible.
Here on CF, a person cannot use the Christian faith icon if they do not accept the Nicene creed - not a judgement, it's in forum rules.

ilovechloe said:
That does not mean that I have to believe everything the church tells me, or stop using my own reasoning & let the church do all of my thinking for me.

No, it doesn't - we should all read the Scriptures and think for ourselves and not just believe what someone else says.
But you don't believe the story of Noah's ark, for a start, and who knows how many others Bible stories you don't believe. So if you find the Scriptures questionable, what are you using as a basis for your faith?

ilovechloe said:
I have also done plenty of study on theology, from many sources, including from devout Christians like William Lane Craig, but also atheists such as Bart Ehrman (who was a former devout Christian). I have always questioned many beliefs of the church, & will continue to do so. Frankly, if I walk into a church that is predominately fundamentalist in its beliefs, it leaves me cold & I cant wait to get out of there. I have always preferred churches who are more liberal in their beliefs.

I don't know what beliefs of the church you question or why you favour liberal beliefs.
Questioning is fine, but if you reject too many fundamental beliefs and/or claim that the Bible is inaccurate, or that we don't need to accept all of it, you may find that people will question whether you are a Christian.

Strong in Him · Oct 27, 2019

ilovechloe said:
Probably the only reason that you and I, & 98% of Christians ARE christians, is because of the culture we are bought up in, which was a Christian culture.

Being brought up in a Christian culture does not mean that a person is a Christian.
Not everyone who lives, and has been brought up in, "Christian" countries are Christians, or even go to church. There are people who were dragged to church when they were kids, may still go at Christmas and continue to live in a Christian culture who openly say that they are not Christians. Others live in a Christian culture but were brought up by parents who were atheists, cult members (JWs etc) or humanists. They are not necessarily Christians because of their culture, nor are they automatically humanists, JWs or whatever because their parents are. A person becomes a Christian when they accept the Christian Gospel, become children of God, John 1:12, are born again, John 3:3 and believe that Jesus died for their sin, Acts of the Apostles 4:12 and is the only way to God, John 14:6.

My brothers were brought up the same as me, by the same church going parents, were taken to church themselves and live in the same "Christian" country that I do; yet 2 of them are not Christians.

ilovechloe said:
So what is the use of having to believe in something supposedly as important as believing in the right God or religion, or you might end up in hell, on faith?

People only "end up in hell" if they have constantly and continually rejected Jesus and claimed they could get into heaven by themselves and their own good deeds.
If someone knows the Gospel, chooses to reject it, denies God and are quite happy to live without him in this life, why would they be happy being forced to live with God for the whole of eternity? They couldn't do so anyway; however good they may have been, unless they have asked Jesus to forgive their sins, they remain without forgiveness and not reconciled to God.

To be continued.

hellothere · Oct 27, 2019

HopeInJesusOnly said:
Free will sucks, to be honest. We always seem to choose wrong and pay heavily.

You don't have to pay, though.

HopeInJesusOnly · Oct 27, 2019

hellothere said:
You don't have to pay, though.

With your soul. Seems "free," but it ain't.

(Nice attempt at being funny, though. If I wasn't dead serious, I might have given you a smiley face. Next time, maybe. Bless.)

AlexDTX · Oct 27, 2019

ilovechloe said:
So why dosnt/didnt god ever create anything that cant be explained naturally. Something that has no other possible explanation other than being created by a god?

All creation declares the glory of God.

Rom_1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

JacksBratt · Oct 27, 2019

HopeInJesusOnly said:
Free will sucks, to be honest. We always seem to choose wrong and pay heavily.

Free will is the only way God could guarantee that those who choose Him do so because they love Him and believe in Him.

Others will be lovers of themselves and of their desires...

Without free will.... all would just do as He wanted.... That is not true love. That is not truly believing...That is robotic.

HopeInJesusOnly · Oct 27, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Free will is the only way God could guarantee that those who choose Him do so because they love Him and believe in Him.

Others will be lovers of themselves and of their desires...

Without free will.... all would just do as He wanted.... That is not true love. That is not truly believing...That is robotic.

Yes, but if you do as He wants, always, you get to spend eternity with Him in heaven, instead of with that other jerk, in hell.

Yes, please.

JacksBratt · Oct 27, 2019

HopeInJesusOnly said:
With your soul. Seems "free," but it ain't.

(Nice attempt at being funny, though. If I wasn't dead serious, I might have given you a smiley face. Next time, maybe. Bless.)

Well, you obviously have the knowledge of your free will and the consequences that your soul will pay for your choice.

You obviously are aware of the creator and the reality of His words.

So, why is "freewill" a problem? You believe, you accept, you pray for guidence, you have salvation..... no problem.

Unless your desires to do what you want, outside of the knowledge of right and wrong, are more important to you... but... you still know what is right and wrong.

It's probably more realistic to say that you are not enjoying the fact that you must follow His ways...under your free will.

hellothere · Oct 27, 2019

ilovechloe said:
Probably the only reason that you and I, & 98% of Christians ARE christians, is because of the culture we are bought up in, which was a Christian culture. There is probably only about 2% of Christians who were bought up in a different faith or culture who actually convert to Christianity.

So if I was bought up in a Muslim culture, I would still require faith to believe, but my belief would almost certainly be faith in Islam. The same goes for all the other religions.

So what is the use of having to believe in something supposedly as important as believing in the right God or religion, or you might end up in hell, on faith?

If I get on an aeroplane to fly to another country, I can have reasonable faith that I will arrive at my destination unharmed. If I didn't have that faith, I wouldn't get on the plane. So yes, a certain amount of faith is useful. HOWEVER, my faith is not blind faith, my faith is based on the following facts:

1. The Science behind aeroplanes being able to fly is very well known & well-proven.
2. The particular plane I am boarding has done many successful flights before
3. I am assuming the plane is well maintained according to Civil Aviation regulations
3. I know that the pilots are well trained
4. I know that air flight is one of the safest forms of travel, safer than most other forms of transport.

So my faith is based not just on somebody telling me that it is safe to fly on the plane, my faith is based upon solid EVIDENCE!

So for a god to expect people to believe in him based on FAITH alone, is quite cruel. Because god also knows that:
1. If people are expected to believe on faith alone with no solid evidence provided, many (well over 2/3rds the world's population) will choose the wrong religion to believe in, based upon their culture, or the religion that their parents believe in.
2. There is always going to be a percentage of the population that cannot believe through faith alone. A certain percentage of the population is always going to require solid evidence before they believe certain things.
3. Without compelling evidence to support it, there is no reason for believers in one religion to change to another religion, because they may be leaving the true religion for a false religion.

So the only conclusion that one can come to, is that heaven is a fairly small place. So god needs to keep the numbers low, so it won't be too crowded there, & he has deliberately rigged the system so that less than a 1/4 of the world's population ends up in heaven.

You have no statistics to support that. I used to be agnostic until I started doing some research on different religions including atheism and found that Christianity the only 100% valid and true religion. Most of the Christians I know are converts so to say 98% of them are only Christian because of how they were brought up is just false. If you wanted to say that about a religion like Islam then that might be true. I recommend you look up David Wood debating John Loftus and he'll give you an understanding of the evidence behind Christianity. The use is because truth matters. I don't think you understand what faith means. It means that you have complete belief and trust in God. It doesn't mean you just believe because. That would be blind faith that really has nothing to do with religion. I'd say atheists more than anyone operate on blind faith. Again, if you want evidence, all you have to do is look for it. The crucifixion of Jesus isn't even disputed among atheist scholars. They just say he didn't rise, but if you look at the possibilities, that's the only possibility. If you believe in Plato and Aristotle then you have to believe in Jesus because he has far more historically valid evidence that passes textual criticism much more easily. If you're not bothered to search for the evidence then you don't have a very high regard for truth.

JacksBratt · Oct 27, 2019

HopeInJesusOnly said:
Yes, but if you do as He wants, always, you get to spend eternity with Him in heaven, instead of with that other jerk, in hell.

Yes, please.

I don't always do what He wants. But I'm trying.

Why would you not want to strive to be more like God? Why is your desire to be not to be more like Christ? What is it that you do that you believe will put you into hell?

See, many people get this wrong.... They say "do that and it will send you to hell"....

This is a farce...

We are all born IN a basket heading to hell.... Trusting in Jesus lifts us out of that hand basket and puts us in Christ's family and we no longer are on the road to hell.

You cannot do anything that will "send you to hell" You're already on your way.

You can only do something to take you off of that highway.

HopeInJesusOnly · Oct 27, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Well, you obviously have the knowledge of your free will and the consequences that your soul will pay for your choice.

You obviously are aware of the creator and the reality of His words.

So, why is "freewill" a problem? You believe, you accept, you pray for guidence, you have salvation..... no problem.

Unless your desires to do what you want, outside of the knowledge of right and wrong, are more important to you... but... you still know what is right and wrong.

It's probably more realistic to say that you are not enjoying the fact that you must follow His ways...under your free will.

No, that's not it. I appreciate the analysis, though.

I've been sick for a couple years, and it's getting tougher and tougher to want to stick around. And I feel God less in the pain. I guess I feel I must have done something wrong to deserve this.

Looks like I'm taking it out on free will, lol.

JacksBratt · Oct 27, 2019

HopeInJesusOnly said:
No, that's not it. I appreciate the analysis, though.

I've been sick for a couple years, and it's getting tougher and tougher to want to stick around. And I feel God less in the pain. I guess I feel I must have done something wrong to deserve this.

Looks like I'm taking it out on free will, lol.

That's not the way God works. We are not "punished" for our actions like that.

Life.... is life... Christians don't get to move to the luxury line and get a softer and easier go of it...

Our lives are our lives... Christian or non believer.....God is just and He is the one that decides what our lives will hold.

Some Christians die in car accidents, have miscarriages, have illnesses, get robbed, get great jobs, struggle to make ends meet..... live to be 100 or die at 40 from a heart attack.....

All is for His glory. How we deal with it will shine for Him.

We are to count our blessings and know that He is good.... His will be done..

It's tough as Christians sometimes to understand His working... only when we get to paradise will we know.

Why does God only create things that can be explained by natural processes?

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