What The Eucharist Does NOT Mean To Me

WebersHome · Oct 18, 2019

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As a growing Catholic boy, my understanding of Holy Communion was somewhat limited, but adequate enough for the time being. It's a sacramental ritual required by the Catholic religion and so I did it.

Many years later, when I was an adult capable of doing my own thinking, I discovered that if the Eucharist were truly in line with Jesus' actual teachings, then it needs to be taken only once rather than over and over again. Here's why.

● John 6:53 . . Amen, Amen, I say to you: unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

The kind of life about which the Lord spoke is very unusual to say the least because it's supernatural.

● John 6:54 . . .Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life

Eternal life is timeless, i.e. it always was, it always is, and it always will be because eternal life is divine (John 1:1-4 and 1John 1:1-2).

In other words; eternal life is imperishable; viz: it cannot die, it cannot age, it cannot decay, it cannot wear out, and it cannot be slain. Ergo: once somebody obtains eternal life they need not attempt to re-obtain it because they cannot lose it with any more ease than Christ can lose it.

Jesus had eternal life the whole time he was on Earth as a mortal being.

● John 5:26 . . For just as the Father has life in Himself, so also He gave to His son the possession of life in himself.

So when Jesus passed away on the cross, his mortal life was lost, but he did not lose, nor could he lose, the life that was given him by The Father because the life that's in God is eternal. (Ex 3:14, Ps 90:2)

Eternal life cannot be used up with any more ease than a gnat drinking up the Atlantic Ocean. In other words: eternal life is as bottomless and it is endless.

● John 4:10-14 . . Jesus answered her: If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.

. . . Sir; the woman said: you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?

. . . Jesus answered: Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

FAQ: How does one actually go about eating Jesus' flesh and imbibing his blood?

A: By following the prophet Jeremiah's example.

"When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart's delight" (Jer 15:16)

In other words: the correct way to eat Jesus' flesh and imbibe his blood is by swallowing his teachings hook, line, and sinker; so to speak.

● John 5:24 . . Amen, Amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life, and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

Note the grammatical tense of the first "has" in Jesus' statement; it's present tense rather than future; indicating that everyone who believes-- i.e. swallows his teachings hook, line, and sinker --possesses eternal life right now; no delay and no waiting period.

● John 6:47 . . I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
_

Aussie Pete · Oct 18, 2019

WebersHome said:
.
As a growing Catholic boy, my understanding of Holy Communion was somewhat limited, but adequate enough for the time being. It's a sacramental ritual required by the Catholic religion and so I did it.

Many years later, when I was an adult capable of doing my own thinking, I discovered that if the Eucharist were truly in line with Jesus' actual teachings, then it needs to be taken only once rather than over and over again. Here's why.

● John 6:53 . . Amen, Amen, I say to you: unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

The kind of life about which the Lord spoke is very unusual to say the least because it's supernatural.

● John 6:54 . . .Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life

Eternal life is timeless, i.e. it always was, it always is, and it always will be because eternal life is divine (John 1:1-4 and 1John 1:1-2).

In other words; eternal life is imperishable; viz: it cannot die, it cannot age, it cannot decay, it cannot wear out, and it cannot be slain. Ergo: once somebody obtains eternal life they need not attempt to re-obtain it because they cannot lose it with any more ease than Christ can lose it.

Jesus had eternal life the whole time he was on Earth as a mortal being.

● John 5:26 . . For just as the Father has life in Himself, so also He gave to His son the possession of life in himself.

So when Jesus passed away on the cross, his mortal life was lost, but he did not lose, nor could he lose, the life that was given him by The Father because the life that's in God is eternal. (Ex 3:14, Ps 90:2)

Eternal life cannot be used up with any more ease than a gnat drinking up the Atlantic Ocean. In other words: eternal life is as bottomless and it is endless.

● John 4:10-14 . . Jesus answered her: If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.

. . . Sir; the woman said: you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?

. . . Jesus answered: Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

FAQ: How does one actually go about eating Jesus' flesh and imbibing his blood?

A: By following the prophet Jeremiah's example.

"When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart's delight" (Jer 15:16)

In other words: the correct way to eat Jesus' flesh and imbibe his blood is by swallowing his teachings hook, line, and sinker; so to speak.

● John 5:24 . . Amen, Amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life, and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

Note the grammatical tense of the first "has" in Jesus' statement; it's present tense rather than future; indicating that everyone who believes-- i.e. swallows his teachings hook, line, and sinker --possesses eternal life right now; no delay and no waiting period.

● John 6:47 . . I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
_

Perhaps you could consider this aspect. Lord Jesus said that He is food and drink (John 6). How often do we need to eat and drink? What does the Lord's prayer mean "give us this day our daily bread"? I can get food real easy. Spiritual food I only find in Christ. So the Lord's prayer refers to "feeding" on Christ. If you are born again, you have life. Yet we know that the Christian life is a journey, not just a instantaneous event. Yes, being born again is instant. But we have a goal of our faith, the salvation of our souls. To be a disciple is to continue in the Word of the Lord Jesus. We take our cross daily.
Paul devoted considerable space to advise the Corinthians how to conduct themselves in what many call the Lord's supper. Nowhere does it say how often to celebrate this. But it was often enough for a pattern of wrongdoing to arise.
So I believe that is is good to proclaim the Lord's death until He comes. Our small fellowship does this weekly. Others far less often, some every day. That's up to them.

Phronema · Oct 18, 2019

. wrong forum

Mathetes66 · Oct 19, 2019

Aussie Pete had some good wisdom in his response. Participating in the eternal life of the Lord Jesus Christ is a moment by moment sharing of His forever life in relationship. He alone satisfies the deepest longing of our souls--like water & food satisfy the longing of our physical bodies.

However, participation in the Lord's Supper WITH other members of the body of Christ, is different; it is a SHARED participation that we do OFTEN, as the Lord taught, in order to do 2 things:

1) To regularly REMEMBER HIM--& what He did for us--His soul's sufferings, His body broken, His blood shed, His resurrection life, our fellowship with & in Him

2) As often as we participate in it TOGETHER as the body of Christ, we regularly proclaim His death until He returns.

Albion · Oct 19, 2019

It's all well and good to say that eternal life is imperishable, but there is no call to conclude that the Lord's Supper is of value only for that reason, especially since Christ himself, upon instituting the sacrament, said "as oft" as you receive it....

WebersHome · Oct 19, 2019

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Aussie Pete said:
How often do we need to eat and drink? What does the Lord's prayer mean "give us this day our daily bread"?

When Jesus' flesh and blood are correctly appropriated, he gives people eternal life (John 6:54) which, according to John 1:1-4 and 1John 1:1-2 is the very same kind of life that's in God.

Well; as far as I know, God doesn't need to nourish Himself from time to time with some sort of ambrosia in order to prevent His eternal life from fading. In other words: eternal life is self-sustaining-- e.g. Ex 3:14, Ps 90:2 --which is why people need to obtain it only once rather than every day like the manna that sustained Moses' people in the wilderness,

FAQ: If Christians really do obtain eternal life by appropriating Jesus' flesh and blood, then why is it that they don't live any longer than non Christians?

A: Eternal life and immortality are not one and the same.

When people are born, they come into existence with human nature and they keep it for as long as they live. There is no need to nourish human nature in order to prevent it from dying because human nature is built into human existence. Human nature goes about its business without people even thinking about it because human nature takes care of itself, i.e. it's self sustaining; viz; people have no control over human nature; on the contrary; it controls them.

According to 2Pet 1:4; it's possible for people to obtain divine nature, i.e. the nature of God. For convenience sake, we can legitimately call the divine nature an eternal kind life; as compared to human nature which is a created kind of life.

Long story short: eternal life has no effect upon either the health or the longevity of the human body, which is why Christians come to the end of their rope just like everybody else.

FAQ: Well if eternal life doesn't give people immortality, then what good is it?

A: Eternal life gives people the potential to think, to feel, to speak, and to act like God; i.e. like divine beings instead of plain old run of the mill human beings. That is a huge advantage; and well worth making an effort to obtain.
_

Aussie Pete · Oct 20, 2019

WebersHome said:
.

When Jesus' flesh and blood are correctly appropriated, he gives people eternal life (John 6:54) which, according to John 1:1-4 and 1John 1:1-2 is the very same kind of life that's in God.

Well; as far as I know, God doesn't need to nourish Himself from time to time with some sort of ambrosia in order to prevent His eternal life from fading. In other words: eternal life is self-sustaining-- e.g. Ex 3:14, Ps 90:2 --which is why people need to obtain it only once rather than every day like the manna that sustained Moses' people in the wilderness,

FAQ: If Christians really do obtain eternal life by appropriating Jesus' flesh and blood, then why is it that they don't live any longer than non Christians?

A: Eternal life and immortality are not one and the same.

When people are born, they come into existence with human nature and they keep it for as long as they live. There is no need to nourish human nature in order to prevent it from dying because human nature is built into human existence. Human nature goes about its business without people even thinking about it because human nature takes care of itself, i.e. it's self sustaining; viz; people have no control over human nature; on the contrary; it controls them.

According to 2Pet 1:4; it's possible for people to obtain divine nature, i.e. the nature of God. For convenience sake, we can legitimately call the divine nature an eternal kind life; as compared to human nature which is a created kind of life.

Long story short: eternal life has no effect upon either the health or the longevity of the human body, which is why Christians come to the end of their rope just like everybody else.

FAQ: Well if eternal life doesn't give people immortality, then what good is it?

A: Eternal life gives people the potential to think, to feel, to speak, and to act like God; i.e. like divine beings instead of plain old run of the mill human beings. That is a huge advantage; and well worth making an effort to obtain.
_

Try living without reading God's word, praying, following the leading of His Spirit within etc. and see how your Christian life goes.

And what does Romans 8:11 say? Personally, I believe that God has a "due date" for all His people. We have a race to run. When it's done, He calls us home. I'm 68. I expect a few more years yet. I'd be happy to go now, but there is work to do still.

WebersHome · Oct 22, 2019

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● John 6:53 . . Amen, Amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

FAQ: Does that apply to Old Testament personages, e.g. Able, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joshua. Ruth, Gideon, Samson, and David, et al?

A: Yes; all of them.

FAQ: How do you know that?

A: Jesus' flesh benefits the whole world rather than only a portion of the world.

● John 6:51b . . the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.

● 1John 2:2 . . He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

FAQ: Did they even know about Jesus back then?

A: They may not have known his name, but they were all aware that a savior was on the way-- beginning with Adam and Eve.

● Gen 3:15 . . I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

It's pretty much agreed on both sides of the aisle that the seed is Christ.

Others besides Adam and Eve knew.

Abraham:

● John 8:56 . . Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.

Jacob:

● Gen 49:18 . . I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord

Isaiah:

● Isa 52:14 . .There were many who were appalled at him-- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness

● Isa 53:6 . .We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The prophets:

● 1Pet 1:10-11 . . Concerning this salvation, prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and investigated it, investigating the time and circumstances that the Spirit of Christ within them indicated when it testified in advance to the sufferings destined for Christ and the glories to follow them.

David:

● Ps 16:10 . .You will not leave my soul in Sheol, nor allow your Holy one to see corruption. (cf. Acts 2:25-36)

FAQ: Jesus' body didn't exist back then, and there was no such thing as a communion service until he instituted it during the last supper. So how did those people back then eat his flesh and drink his blood?

A: The very same way that people do it now: they swallowed the things they heard hook, line, and sinker; so to speak.

● Jer 15:16 . .When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart's delight.
_

Mathetes66 · Oct 22, 2019

"There was no such thing as a communion service until he instituted it during the last supper."

The picture of it was there clear back in the days of Abraham. Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus' day & was glad it it, being the father of the faithful. He knew Jesus.

Genesis 14:18-20 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread & wine—since he was priest of God Most High— he blessed Abram & said:

“Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven & earth & blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”

Albion · Oct 22, 2019

So both had meals.

Saying just that avoids the fact that Christ made his meal, the Last Supper, have a new and deeper meaning, something more than just a fellowship, etc.

WebersHome · Oct 23, 2019

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● John 6:60-61 . . Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said: This is a hard saying; who can listen to it? But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them: Do you take offense at this?

Well of course they were offended because cannibalism is repulsive to civilized folk.

● John 6:62 . . Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?

Now the meaning of that is this: If Jesus had meant for his disciples to actually eat his flesh and drink his blood, then of course they would need access to his body in order to do so. Were he to leave the Earth, and take his body with him back to heaven, it would be inaccessible, thus making it impossible for them to comply with his instructions.

Jesus went on to say, in John 6:63, that his words were not to be taken prima facie because they were speaking of a spiritual truth rather than a physical truth; viz; his words were not speaking of actual cannibalism though they certainly appear to be, ergo: nobody needs access to his body in order to do as he said.

Paul mentioned in the second chapter of 1st Corinthians that his message was expressed in spiritual words rather than normal words; which makes it all that much more difficult for the world to understand a religion that is already confusing enough as it is already without throwing in the need for assistance from God to enable the human mind to make some sense of it.
_

Albion · Oct 23, 2019

WebersHome said:
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● John 6:60-61 . . Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said: This is a hard saying; who can listen to it? But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them: Do you take offense at this?

Well of course they were offended because cannibalism is repulsive to civilized folk.

I agree. They were offended for that reason. But what did Jesus do in the face of that confusion or resistance? He persisted in his teaching that they must eat of him. So for him to respond in that way doesn't indicate to us that his message was simply about some symbolic gesture.

tz620q · Oct 23, 2019

WebersHome said:
Now the meaning of that is this: If Jesus had meant for his disciples to actually eat his flesh and drink his blood, then of course they would need access to his body in order to do so. Were he to leave the Earth, and take his body with him back to heaven, it would be inaccessible, thus making it impossible for them to comply with his instructions.
_

Do you truly think that it is impossible for Jesus to descend to this earth in the Eucharist as an unbloody offering for us today? It is my opinion that He saw forward to the need for us today to be brought to the foot of the cross to truly understand his sacrifice. Otherwise, the focus will shift completely to the Resurrection to the denial of the Passion that proceeded it. We as humans don't like to confront the unpleasant and uncomfortable fact of our helplessness and the fact we possess warped natures.

Albion · Oct 23, 2019

tz620q said:
Do you truly think that it is impossible for Jesus to descend to this earth in the Eucharist as an unbloody offering for us today?

God can do almost anything, but that comment is really beside the point. If the first part of that idea is possible, there's still no reason to think that it is actually what He did choose to do. Not in the way that transubstantiation defines it.

hedrick · Oct 23, 2019

The passages cited are interesting, but only indirectly relevant. It's best, I think, to start with the actual words of institution:

"Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes." (1 Cor 11:25-26)

This certainly assumes that it's going to be done repeatedly. Does it imply a specific frequency? Reasonable people can disagree, but I think the context suggests every time the church meets.

tz620q · Oct 24, 2019

Albion said:
God can do almost anything, but that comment is really beside the point. If the first part of that idea is possible, there's still no reason to think that it is actually what He did choose to do. Not in the way that transubstantiation defines it.

Sometimes, I find it exceedingly hard to find agreement with you. Why bring in transubstantiation, which I realize you don't like, when I was merely showing the possibility of God doing this. If someone thinks this is impossible, then we can't jump the discussion over that point.

Albion · Oct 24, 2019

tz620q said:
Sometimes, I find it exceedingly hard to find agreement with you. Why bring in transubstantiation, which I realize you don't like, when I was merely showing the possibility of God doing this. If someone thinks this is impossible, then we can't jump the discussion over that point.

and here is the answer. It's because you worded your post in a way that suggested that transubstantiation was what you were talking about.

If you had not done so, my conclusion would no doubt have been different, even though you tell us that you are a Roman Catholic and presumably believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Lord's Supper. Look at the wording you used and which I quoted--

Do you truly think that it is impossible for Jesus to descend to this earth in the Eucharist as an unbloody offering for us today?

WebersHome · Oct 25, 2019

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● 1Cor 11:23-26 . . I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said: This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.

. . . In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying: This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.

. . . For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

The thing to note in the Lord's instructions is that the bread and the cup proclaim his death rather than his resurrection; which, though it may seem a trivial point, is very important because it regards his crucified body rather than his resurrected body; viz; it regards his mortal body.

According to 1Cor 15:35-38, his mortal body was a "seed". That which came from the seed is immortal; i.e. glorified.

In order for transubstantiation to be in accord with 1Cor 11:23-26, the species has to contain the real presence of Jesus' mortal, crucified body. Well; that body no longer exists, ergo: it is no longer available for transubstantiation.

Anyway, if people wish to continue utilizing the Eucharist to comply with 1Cor 11:23-26, might I suggest a sort of safety net just in case the species doesn't give eaters the eternal life that Jesus promised in John 6:54.

At John 4:10-14, Jesus instructed a Samarian women that she could obtain a living water from him just for the asking. (That living water is one of the essential components of the spirit birth about which Jesus spoke at John 3:3-8)

At John 7:37-39, Jesus instructed the Jews in Jerusalem that they could obtain the Holy Spirit from him just for the asking. (The Spirit is another essential component of the spirit birth; plus it's also the means by which a special sealing process is accomplished. Eph 1:12-14)

So, I suggest finding a private moment to audibly pray and ask Jesus if you could have the living water about which he spoke with that woman, and also the Spirit about which he preached in Jerusalem.

Don't be afraid to speak with Jesus; he's given his word that no one is turned away. (John 6:37)

FAQ: Jesus is up in heaven and I'm down here on the Earth; so how is he supposed to hear me?

A: Christ is not only a human being, but also a divine being (John 1:1-14). Don't worry, he'll hear you alright; nothing gets past him.
_

Pepper77 · Nov 11, 2019

WebersHome said:
.
As a growing Catholic boy, my understanding of Holy Communion was somewhat limited, but adequate enough for the time being. It's a sacramental ritual required by the Catholic religion and so I did it.

Many years later, when I was an adult capable of doing my own thinking, I discovered that if the Eucharist were truly in line with Jesus' actual teachings, then it needs to be taken only once rather than over and over again. Here's why.

● John 6:53 . . Amen, Amen, I say to you: unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

The kind of life about which the Lord spoke is very unusual to say the least because it's supernatural.

● John 6:54 . . .Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life

Eternal life is timeless, i.e. it always was, it always is, and it always will be because eternal life is divine (John 1:1-4 and 1John 1:1-2).

In other words; eternal life is imperishable; viz: it cannot die, it cannot age, it cannot decay, it cannot wear out, and it cannot be slain. Ergo: once somebody obtains eternal life they need not attempt to re-obtain it because they cannot lose it with any more ease than Christ can lose it.

Jesus had eternal life the whole time he was on Earth as a mortal being.

● John 5:26 . . For just as the Father has life in Himself, so also He gave to His son the possession of life in himself.

So when Jesus passed away on the cross, his mortal life was lost, but he did not lose, nor could he lose, the life that was given him by The Father because the life that's in God is eternal. (Ex 3:14, Ps 90:2)

Eternal life cannot be used up with any more ease than a gnat drinking up the Atlantic Ocean. In other words: eternal life is as bottomless and it is endless.

● John 4:10-14 . . Jesus answered her: If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.

. . . Sir; the woman said: you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?

. . . Jesus answered: Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

FAQ: How does one actually go about eating Jesus' flesh and imbibing his blood?

A: By following the prophet Jeremiah's example.

"When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart's delight" (Jer 15:16)

In other words: the correct way to eat Jesus' flesh and imbibe his blood is by swallowing his teachings hook, line, and sinker; so to speak.

● John 5:24 . . Amen, Amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life, and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

Note the grammatical tense of the first "has" in Jesus' statement; it's present tense rather than future; indicating that everyone who believes-- i.e. swallows his teachings hook, line, and sinker --possesses eternal life right now; no delay and no waiting period.

● John 6:47 . . I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
_

Good post. When we believe in Christ as our Savior we receive Him into our life and we are joined to Him spiritually. We are in Him and He is in us. Col 1:27 says believers have Christ in them, who is our hope of glory. ICor 6:17 says he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Eternal life is in Christ and in us when we receive Him. And it is eternal. Col 2:10 says we are complete in Him. Jesus said to celebrate the Lord’s Supper in remembrance of Him, John 22:19.

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