Gospel Series: Salvation by Works Christians

Bible Highlighter · Sep 24, 2019

Oscarr said:
You are confusing salvation with sanctification.

I am not confused here at all; The Bible teaches that both Justification and Sanctification play a part in the salvation process. I am sure you agree that Justification saves, so there is no need for me to show you the verses on that one. As for Sanctification relating to salvation:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says,
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"

This is relating to both a belief in the truth and to doing good and not evil, for verse 12 says that there are those who are damned who believed not the truth, and who had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Hebrews 12:14 says,
"Follow... holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord"

So we have to follow after holiness, of which if such is not the case, no man shall see the Lord. Jesus confirms this truth when He says that our righteousness must exceed the scribes and the Pharisees otherwise we will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven (See: Matthew 5:20).

Romans 8:13 says,
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

This verse is saying that if you live after the flesh (i.e. sin), you will die spiritually. For most everyone dies physically (even saints who live holy). So this is relating to spiritual death. The word "flesh" here is relating to sin. For Galatians 5:19-21 says that the works of the flesh are: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, etc.; So Paul is saying if you live in sin, you will die spiritually. Paul then says in Romans 8:13 that if you put to death the deeds of the body (Which is sin) via by the Holy Spirit, you will live. This is the contrast to living after sin. Living after the Spirit and putting to death sin out of our lives bring everlasting life. This is the Sanctification process and in living holy for the Lord.

For they that are pure in heart will see God (Matthew 5:8).

Still not enough?

Jesus said to the Pharisees,

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God" (John 8:47).

So hearing God's Word or not determines if one is even of God.

You said:
There is absolutely nothing we can do to contribute to our salvation.

Not true. In Scripture: We are told:

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).

Also, Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life.

25 "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."
(Luke 10:25-28).

Notice Jesus's response here n verse 28 here. Jesus did not tell the lawyer, "Wrong lawyer! Just trust in my finished work and you will be saved!" Jesus never said anything like this (of which many in your camp profess).

1 John 3:15 says whoever hates his brother is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. So this truth in Luke 10:25-28 is still expressed after the cross. For the opposite of loving your neighbor (or brother) is hating them.

You said:
It is a total gift of God based on His grace and our faith in Christ.

Life teaches us that gifts come with responsibilities.

For example:

If one believed that they received a wife from the Lord as an answer to their many years of prayer, does that mean they can cheat on their wife and expect her to stay with them? No. They should not expect their unfaithfulness to be rewarded. God is the same way. Unfaithfulness to the Lord shows disloyalty to Him. For the unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30). The believer who worked iniquity or sin was told to depart by the Lord Jesus Himself (Matthew 7:23). Why? Because they did not do what He said (See: Matthew 7:26-27, and Matthew 7:21).

You said:
Loving our brother is a work, and Paul was quite clear that if we work for salvation then it is not grace, but it is something we are trying to earn and to put God in debt to us.

Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" This was the false belief that said that a believer had to be circumcised first in order to be saved vs. accepting Christ as one's Savior by faith.

We can see an allusion to Paul's fight against this heresy in Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:15, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Acts of the Apostles 21:21.

However, this heresy was made clear (or described to us) at the Jerusalem council; See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24.

Anyways, to address Romans 4:

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Works Alone Salvationism is wrong because one has no grace or rest ever. This would purely be a works based system of salvation with no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if one messes up. A person’s good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you another example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all.

You said:
But when a person is born again and is genuinely converted, then he will receive a new heart to obey God's holy Law from his heart. This means that he will love his brother, and a murderer will no longer murder, and a thief will no longer steal. True conversion is what it is - a conversion from rebelling against God and His holy Law to a love of God's Law and a desire to do one's utmost to comply with it. This is sanctification with follows true conversion.

While a person is changed in heart after being born again, they still have free will to sin, and or to turn back from their faith (Whereby there is no more sacrifice for sin).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).

"...whatsoever is not of faith is sin." (Romans 14:23).

Besides, we are not mindless robots to do good until the end after we accept Christ.
How so? Well, we are told to endure, overcome, be faithful unto death as a part of life:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Such verses above would not be true if things are as you say.

Loving our brother will not save us,

1 John 3:10 says otherwise. It says,

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

Jesus says,

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10).

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6).

You said:
nor will good deeds.

"they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance." (Acts of the Apostles 26:20).

"Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance" (Matthew 3:8).

"And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (Matthew 3:10).

You said:
John Wesley did many good deeds, and then realised that in spite of everything he did, he did not fully trust in Christ. He knew that he needed to be converted to Christ, and that all his good deeds did nothing to save him. After conversion, however, his good deeds did have value, because they were part of his developing sanctification.

John Wesley is not above the Scriptures. Besides, nowhere am I suggesting that a person can enter the Sanctification process without being born again or without Justification (i.e. being saved by God's grace through faith in Christ).

Salvation consisting in faith plus works is a false gospel that leads to God's curse, condemnation and hell.

Actually, the reverse is true.

"Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children" (2 Peter 2:14).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

Walking in the light is loving your brother (See: 1 John 2:9-11).

You said:
It is sad that the great proportion of church members are bewitched in this manner, even those who were originally converted through faith in Christ alone, but now have changed their dependence to works to remain accepted of God.

To do good (as a part of God's kingdom) is not to bewitched. The bewitchment (that Paul was talking about) was in going back to the Old Testament Law of Moses like circumcision in order to be saved (See the circumcision verses again within this post). Paul was not talking against the commands of Jesus. For Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17).

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 24, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I am not confused here at all; The Bible teaches that both Justification and Sanctification play a part in the salvation process. I am sure you agree that Justification saves, so there is no need for me to show you the verses on that one. As for Sanctification relating to salvation:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says,
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"

This is relating to both a belief in the truth and to doing good and not evil, for verse 12 says that there are those who are damned who believed not the truth, and who had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Hebrews 12:14 says,
"Follow... holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord"

So we have to follow after holiness, of which if such is not the case, no man shall see the Lord. Jesus confirms this truth when He says that our righteousness must exceed the scribes and the Pharisees otherwise we will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven (See: Matthew 5:20).

Romans 8:13 says,
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

This verse is saying that if you live after the flesh (i.e. sin), you will die spiritually. For most everyone dies physically (even saints who live holy). So this is relating to spiritual death. The word "flesh" here is relating to sin. For Galatians 5:19-21 says that the works of the flesh are: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, etc.; So Paul is saying if you live in sin, you will die spiritually. Paul then says in Romans 8:13 that if you put to death the deeds of the body (Which is sin) via by the Holy Spirit, you will live. This is the contrast to living after sin. Living after the Spirit and putting to death sin out of our lives bring everlasting life. This is the Sanctification process and in living holy for the Lord.

For they that are pure in heart will see God (Matthew 5:8).

Still not enough?

Jesus said to the Pharisees,

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God" (John 8:47).

So hearing God's Word or not determines if one is even of God.

Not true. In Scripture: We are told:

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).

Also, Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life.

25 "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."
(Luke 10:25-28).

Notice Jesus's response here n verse 28 here. Jesus did not tell the lawyer, "Wrong lawyer! Just trust in my finished work and you will be saved!" Jesus never said anything like this (of which many in your camp profess).

1 John 3:15 says whoever hates his brother is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. So this truth in Luke 10:25-28 is still expressed after the cross. For the opposite of loving your neighbor (or brother) is hating them.

Life teaches us that gifts come with responsibilities.

For example:

If one believed that they received a wife from the Lord as an answer to their many years of prayer, does that mean they can cheat on their wife and expect her to stay with them? No. They should not expect their unfaithfulness to be rewarded. God is the same way. Unfaithfulness to the Lord shows disloyalty to Him. For the unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30). The believer who worked iniquity or sin was told to depart by the Lord Jesus Himself (Matthew 7:23). Why? Because they did not do what He said (See: Matthew 7:26-27, and Matthew 7:21).

Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" This was the false belief that said that a believer had to be circumcised first in order to be saved vs. accepting Christ as one's Savior by faith.

We can see an allusion to Paul's fight against this heresy in Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:15, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Acts of the Apostles 21:21.

However, this heresy was made clear (or described to us) at the Jerusalem council; See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24.

Anyways, to address Romans 4:

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Works Alone Salvationism is wrong because one has no grace or rest ever. This would purely be a works based system of salvation with no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if one messes up. A person’s good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you another example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all.

While a person is changed in heart after being born again, they still have free will to sin, and or to turn back from their faith (Whereby there is no more sacrifice for sin).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).

"...whatsoever is not of faith is sin." (Romans 14:23).

Besides, we are not mindless robots to do good until the end after we accept Christ.
How so? Well, we are told to endure, overcome, be faithful unto death as a part of life:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Such verses above would not be true if things are as you say.

1 John 3:10 says otherwise. It says,

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

Jesus says,

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10).

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6).

"they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance." (Acts of the Apostles 26:20).

"Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance" (Matthew 3:8).

"And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (Matthew 3:10).

John Wesley is not above the Scriptures. Besides, nowhere am I suggesting that a person can enter the Sanctification process without being born again or without Justification (i.e. being saved by God's grace through faith in Christ).

Actually, the reverse is true.

"Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children" (2 Peter 2:14).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

Walking in the light is loving your brother (See: 1 John 2:9-11).

To do good (as a part of God's kingdom) is not to bewitched. The bewitchment (that Paul was talking about) was in going back to the Old Testament Law of Moses like circumcision in order to be saved (See the circumcision verses again within this post). Paul was not talking against the commands of Jesus. For Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17).

Paul has made things very clear in Galatians. Salvation does not come by faith plus works. Paul says that this is false gospel. But he says that after salvation, following God's moral Law is the foundation of our sanctification. Only a person already saved by grace through faith in Christ alone can develop sanctification.

If you don't believe the Holy Spirit's inspired teaching through Paul in Galatians, then you don't believe Scripture, and although you can quote a whole lot of other Scriptures to try and prove a point that faith plus works is essential to salvation, there is no guarantee that if you don't believe the teaching in one inspired book of the Bible, you don't believe any of it.

With the believing of Scripture, one has to believe all of it as the inspired direct word of God, or none of it. There is no halfway.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 25, 2019

Oscarr said:
Paul has made things very clear in Galatians. Salvation does not come by faith plus works. Paul says that this is false gospel. But he says that after salvation, following God's moral Law is the foundation of our sanctification. Only a person already saved by grace through faith in Christ alone can develop sanctification.

If you don't believe the Holy Spirit's inspired teaching through Paul in Galatians, then you don't believe Scripture, and although you can quote a whole lot of other Scriptures to try and prove a point that faith plus works is essential to salvation, there is no guarantee that if you don't believe the teaching in one inspired book of the Bible, you don't believe any of it.

With the believing of Scripture, one has to believe all of it as the inspired direct word of God, or none of it. There is no halfway.

But Paul is fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" which is not the same thing as you are proposing. How do we know?

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4).

Circumcision is something that is a part of the Old Testament Law of Moses and it is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."
(John 1:17).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 25, 2019

Oscarr said:
Paul has made things very clear in Galatians. Salvation does not come by faith plus works. Paul says that this is false gospel. But he says that after salvation, following God's moral Law is the foundation of our sanctification. Only a person already saved by grace through faith in Christ alone can develop sanctification.

If you don't believe the Holy Spirit's inspired teaching through Paul in Galatians, then you don't believe Scripture, and although you can quote a whole lot of other Scriptures to try and prove a point that faith plus works is essential to salvation, there is no guarantee that if you don't believe the teaching in one inspired book of the Bible, you don't believe any of it.

With the believing of Scripture, one has to believe all of it as the inspired direct word of God, or none of it. There is no halfway.

The heresy of "Circumcision Salvation" taught that you had to be first circumcised in order to be initially saved. This was an attack upon being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This heresy was clearly told to us in Acts 15 at the Jerusalem council.

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”...........................................................................................................................................................
Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

This is why Paul appeared to attack the Law and or works. Paul was referring to how we are not saved by keeping the Old Law. Paul was not referring to all forms of Law like the New Testament commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 25, 2019

Oscarr said:
Paul has made things very clear in Galatians. Salvation does not come by faith plus works. Paul says that this is false gospel. But he says that after salvation, following God's moral Law is the foundation of our sanctification. Only a person already saved by grace through faith in Christ alone can develop sanctification.

If you don't believe the Holy Spirit's inspired teaching through Paul in Galatians, then you don't believe Scripture, and although you can quote a whole lot of other Scriptures to try and prove a point that faith plus works is essential to salvation, there is no guarantee that if you don't believe the teaching in one inspired book of the Bible, you don't believe any of it.

With the believing of Scripture, one has to believe all of it as the inspired direct word of God, or none of it. There is no halfway.

If works do not play a part in salvation, then one can live like the devil and be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. So of course works save. The belief that says "works do not save" is faulty thinking even if one believes they will be love robots after they are saved (Which is not what the Bible teaches - See: Hebrews 3:13-14, James 1:12, Matthew 24:13, Revelation 2:7, Revelation 2:10, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 3:5, and Jude 1:21.). How so? Well, you still have to admit that works are necessary to be there for salvation because the changed condition meets the requirement of holiness and or good works. For you believe that Antinomianism is not true, right? If so, then telling others that they are saved solely based on believing in Jesus can lead others to think they can sin and still be saved (if you don't explain yourself properly in every instance).

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
The heresy of "Circumcision Salvation" taught that you had to be first circumcised in order to be initially saved. This was an attack upon being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This heresy was clearly told to us in Acts 15 at the Jerusalem council.

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”...........................................................................................................................................................

Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

This is why Paul appeared to attack the Law and or works. Paul was referring to how we are not saved by keeping the Old Law. Paul was not referring to all forms of Law like the New Testament commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

The unconverted sinner has a corrupt nature that causes him to hate any command of God, including the commands of Jesus. Jesus gave most of His commands to show the unconverted, sinful, rebellious Jews that they would not be able to obey His commands, and so showed them their sinfulness.

A person has to be born again, receive a new heart, a regenerated spirit, and be totally converted to Christ through faith in Him alone, before his nature can be transformed to actually want to follow the commands of Jesus.

If you are saying that a person has to follow the commands of Jesus in order to be saved, then you are preaching a gospel of works which is a false gospel. It is impossible for an unsaved person to follow the commands of Jesus, because if that was the criteria for salvation, he would have to follow every single command of Jesus without a single fault. One failure, and he has breached the lot. So, following the commands of Jesus cannot be the way to salvation at all.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 25, 2019

Oscarr said:
Paul has made things very clear in Galatians. Salvation does not come by faith plus works. Paul says that this is false gospel. But he says that after salvation, following God's moral Law is the foundation of our sanctification. Only a person already saved by grace through faith in Christ alone can develop sanctification.

If you don't believe the Holy Spirit's inspired teaching through Paul in Galatians, then you don't believe Scripture, and although you can quote a whole lot of other Scriptures to try and prove a point that faith plus works is essential to salvation, there is no guarantee that if you don't believe the teaching in one inspired book of the Bible, you don't believe any of it.

With the believing of Scripture, one has to believe all of it as the inspired direct word of God, or none of it. There is no halfway.

Okay. Here is a test to see if you are truly for holy living or not.
If a believer commits the sin of lust, or hate, or lying, and they don't confess of that sin right away and they get hit by mack truck and die, are they saved?

Are future sins forgiven for a believer?
Meaning, if a believer falls into a particular sin, are they saved before they confess and forsake it?

Was King David saved when he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Does a believer have to preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, and live holy and not justify to show that they are saved?

You said before that loving your brother is a work and it is not a salvation issue.
But 1 John 3:15 says that whoever hates his brother is a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 25, 2019

Oscarr said:
The unconverted sinner has a corrupt nature that causes him to hate any command of God, including the commands of Jesus. Jesus gave most of His commands to show the unconverted, sinful, rebellious Jews that they would not be able to obey His commands, and so showed them their sinfulness.

A person has to be born again, receive a new heart, a regenerated spirit, and be totally converted to Christ through faith in Him alone, before his nature can be transformed to actually want to follow the commands of Jesus.

If you are saying that a person has to follow the commands of Jesus in order to be saved, then you are preaching a gospel of works which is a false gospel. It is impossible for an unsaved person to follow the commands of Jesus, because if that was the criteria for salvation, he would have to follow every single command of Jesus without a single fault. One failure, and he has breached the lot. So, following the commands of Jesus cannot be the way to salvation at all.

While we do have a new nature in being born again, are not love robots. The Bible makes it clear that we have to endure to the end, overcome, be faithful unto death as a part of eternal life:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Again, these verses above here would not be true if things are as you say.

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
If works do not play a part in salvation, then one can live like the devil and be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. So of course works save. The belief that says "works do not save" is faulty thinking even if one believes they will be love robots after they are saved (Which is not what the Bible teaches - See: Hebrews 3:13-14, James 1:12, Matthew 24:13, Revelation 2:7, Revelation 2:10, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 3:5, and Jude 1:21.). How so? Well, you still have to admit that works are necessary to be there for salvation because the changed condition meets the requirement of holiness and or good works. For you believe that Antinomianism is not true, right? If so, then telling others that they are saved solely based on believing in Jesus can lead others to think they can sin and still be saved (if you don't explain yourself properly in every instance).

The unconverted sinner does live like the devil. He can do all the good deeds under the sun, and follow many of the commands of Jesus, and yet still be an unconverted sinner with a corrupt, ungodly nature.

An unsaved person cannot be sanctified in any form. He has to be born again, converted to Christ first, and that can come only through faith in Christ alone. As I said before, John Wesley followed the commands of Christ and did many good deeds as a member of the "Holy Club", but he knew that he wasn't saved until he put his faith in Christ alone.

Paul said that the Galatians were bewitched and foolish because they were mixing faith with works to obtain salvation. This is a mixture of salvation and sanctification, and is the false gospel of sanctification being essential for salvation, instead of salvation being essential for sanctification.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 25, 2019

Oscarr said:
Paul has made things very clear in Galatians. Salvation does not come by faith plus works. Paul says that this is false gospel. But he says that after salvation, following God's moral Law is the foundation of our sanctification. Only a person already saved by grace through faith in Christ alone can develop sanctification.

If you don't believe the Holy Spirit's inspired teaching through Paul in Galatians, then you don't believe Scripture, and although you can quote a whole lot of other Scriptures to try and prove a point that faith plus works is essential to salvation, there is no guarantee that if you don't believe the teaching in one inspired book of the Bible, you don't believe any of it.

With the believing of Scripture, one has to believe all of it as the inspired direct word of God, or none of it. There is no halfway.

In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus did not tell the lawyer to trust in the finished work of Christ, but he told the lawyer to do this (i.e. to love God and to love his neighbor) and he will live (i.e. live eternally).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 25, 2019

Oscarr said:
The unconverted sinner does live like the devil. He can do all the good deeds under the sun, and follow many of the commands of Jesus, and yet still be an unconverted sinner with a corrupt, ungodly nature.

An unsaved person cannot be sanctified in any form. He has to be born again, converted to Christ first, and that can come only through faith in Christ alone. As I said before, John Wesley followed the commands of Christ and did many good deeds as a member of the "Holy Club", but he knew that he wasn't saved until he put his faith in Christ alone.

Paul said that the Galatians were bewitched and foolish because they were mixing faith with works to obtain salvation. This is a mixture of salvation and sanctification, and is the false gospel of sanctification being essential for salvation, instead of salvation being essential for sanctification.

These points were already addressed with Scripture in post #28, post #23, and post #24. Please go back and read what I wrote (including the Scripture verses). Thanks.

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Okay. Here is a test to see if you are truly for holy living or not.
If a believer commits the sin of lust, or hate, or lying, and they don't confess of that sin right away and they get hit by mack truck and die, are they saved?

Are future sins forgiven for a believer?
Meaning, if a believer falls into a particular sin, are they saved before they confess and forsake it?

Was King David saved when he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Does a believer have to preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, and live holy and not justify to show that they are saved?

You said before that loving your brother is a work and it is not a salvation issue.
But 1 John 3:15 says that whoever hates his brother is a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28).

I have a question for you. Are you following all the commands of Christ without a single fault? Are there times when you know that you are not loving God with all your heart, mind and strength? Also, are there times when you are not perfectly loving toward every single person who comes across your path? If not, you are condemned by your own view of salvation by faith plus works, because if you are depending on your ability to follow all the commands of Christ perfectly to maintain your salvation, then you are sunk!

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
While we do have a new nature in being born again, are not love robots. The Bible makes it clear that we have to endure to the end, overcome, be faithful unto death as a part of eternal life:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Again, these verses above here would not be true if things are as you say.

You are describing developing sanctification which every genuinely converted believer enters into after they are saved through faith in Christ alone.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 25, 2019

Oscarr said:
I have a question for you. Are you following all the commands of Christ without a single fault? Are there times when you know that you are not loving God with all your heart, mind and strength? Also, are there times when you are not perfectly loving toward every single person who comes across your path? If not, you are condemned by your own view of salvation by faith plus works, because if you are depending on your ability to follow all the commands of Christ perfectly to maintain your salvation, then you are sunk!

My life is not the standard. The Bible is. Whether my walk is perfect or not in loving God is a moot point. What matters is what the Bible says on this topic.

But does the Bible say that we are condemned if we do not love God 100% with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength perfectly? No.

It simply says that loving God and loving our neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 19:17-19).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 25, 2019

Oscarr said:
You are describing developing sanctification which every genuinely converted believer enters into after they are saved through faith in Christ alone.

No. Please go back and re-read the verses. They are telling us to overcome, keep yourself in the love of God, etc.; Such commands are redundant or useless if one will just automatically do such things as a part of being born again.

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus did not tell the lawyer to trust in the finished work of Christ, but he told the lawyer to do this (i.e. to love God and to love his neighbor) and he will live (i.e. live eternally).

If you did an accurate exegesis of the passage you will see that Jesus was talking to an unconverted Jew under the Mosaic Law. He was telling that lawyer that if he was to be justified he had to follow the Law perfectly. Jesus said this to show the lawyer that he could never be justified by doing those things, because he knew that he would fail every time - and Jesus knew it too. Jesus said these things to the lawyer to show him that he needed something better to justify him apart from compliance with the Law.

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
My life is not the standard. The Bible is. Whether my walk is perfect or not in loving God is a moot point. What matters is what the Bible says on this topic.

But does the Bible say that we are condemned if we do not love God 100% with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength perfectly? No.

It simply says that loving God and loving our neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 19:17-19).

That's what Jesus said to unconverted Jews to show what was needed to inherit eternal life under the Mosaic Law. This is to show that one cannot depend on compliance with the Law to be justified, because no one can achieve it.

So, if you are depending on your good deeds to keep your salvation, you are condemning yourself with your own words. What I hear from you is that, "If I don't follow the commands of Christ, I will lose my salvation". The problem is that by that reasoning, if you fail in just one small point of it, you have lost your salvation; in fact, everyone who reasons that if they don't follow the commands of Christ they will be lost, then they will be lost, because there is no way they can follow the commands perfectly; and perfection is God's absolute standard!

Bible Highlighter · Sep 25, 2019

Oscarr said:
If you did an accurate exegesis of the passage you will see that Jesus was talking to an unconverted Jew under the Mosaic Law. He was telling that lawyer that if he was to be justified he had to follow the Law perfectly. Jesus said this to show the lawyer that he could never be justified by doing those things, because he knew that he would fail every time - and Jesus knew it too. Jesus said these things to the lawyer to show him that he needed something better to justify him apart from compliance with the Law.

No. In verse 28, Jesus says to the lawyer to "do this and you will live." Such a thing would be a lie if he could not really do such a thing and live by it. Jesus told two people to "sin no more." (John 8:11) (John 5:14). Such a thing would be a lie if they could not really "sin no more."

Also, Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant and not Old Covenant (even though he used the Old Testament Scriptures as a part of His teaching). How so?

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).

The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).

The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.

The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).

Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
These points were already addressed with Scripture in post #28, post #23, and post #24. Please go back and read what I wrote (including the Scripture verses). Thanks.

To be honest, I really don't think you believe that salvation comes through faith in Christ alone without works. I think that you have faith in Christ, but are attaching your own good deeds to it in order to make yourself acceptable to God. If that is the case, then I fear for you.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 25, 2019

Oscarr said:
If you did an accurate exegesis of the passage you will see that Jesus was talking to an unconverted Jew under the Mosaic Law. He was telling that lawyer that if he was to be justified he had to follow the Law perfectly. Jesus said this to show the lawyer that he could never be justified by doing those things, because he knew that he would fail every time - and Jesus knew it too. Jesus said these things to the lawyer to show him that he needed something better to justify him apart from compliance with the Law.

Also, nowhere does Luke 10 make an ending point of the futility of keeping God's laws. If you believe otherwise, please quote the verse.

Gospel Series: Salvation by Works Christians

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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