Why does hell exist?

Anguspure · Aug 28, 2019

Der Alter said:
Here is a post I made earlier in this thread which addresses all the arguments, including the false claim of pagan Greek influence.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
.....These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
.....Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it often had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only reinforce those beliefs.

Mainstream Judaism was largely Hellenised by about the time of the Septuagint. If we want to determine pre-hellenistic Jewish thought we need to go back further from that, and if we want to investigate Jewish thought free of all pagan philosophy we need to look before the Babylonian diaspora and Talmud.

Even before then, as scripture itself reveals, the Jews had allowed themselves to be heavily side tracked by pagan thought to the extent of forgetting where the Scriptural books were even stored.

So to drag up some Jewish thinking from the 1st century as if it reflects the unadulterated truth according to the words given in the Law and the Prophets is patently wrong.

The Torah in Hebrew contains not a hint of dualism.

Anguspure · Aug 28, 2019

Der Alter said:
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41

If the fire is everlasting this says nothing about the life of things thrown into it.

• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"

Death tends to be eternal, and generally refers to the state of being dead as opposed to being alive.

• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"

This sentence refers to a worm that does not die, not a person. The "worm" (maggot) does not die because it feasts on dead things. Worms do not eat living flesh.

• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50

Nothing here about eternal anything, just that at some point there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

Drowning is a cause of death, not eternal life in the naughty place.

• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23

Nothing about eternal life in hell here either.

• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

Much better not to be born than face the second death.

• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

Sodom is no longer burning even, far less the residents within in it still being alive and suffering.

I'm somewhat surprised you didn't choose this passage from Revelation 14 as well: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.".....but I guess that is because this passage refers to smoke rising for ever and ever, not eternal life of those who are tormented within it.

A similar passage in Isaiah 34 refers to the destruction of Edom: "Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch!

It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever."

It turns out, many years after the destruction of Edom that this passage is hyperbole and that in fact the smoke is no longer rising.

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.

Nope

In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

.....Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it often had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Death by being thrown in a burning lake of fire would be pretty awful and a whole lot worse that non-existence or many other deaths, such as hanging or shooting, or even drowning for that matter. It is a rather far fetch to suggest that what is meant in these passages implies eternal life in hell.

[/quote

Click to expand...

Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

If there is any advantage to be gained in punishment then it implies that once the punishment will at some point have had the desired advantagous effect. We could then resonably expect that the punishmnet will the n cease and life may continue without further punishment. This passage in fact lends itself towards universalism.

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only reinforce those beliefs.

As previously noted, what the Jews believed and what is true is quite irrelevant. Remember the Jews did not beleive that He was God Incarnate either.

That "that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," is an unjustified extraploation of the passage in Revelation I referred to earlier and is perhaps only justified if the the Hellenistic view of Jewish scripture is more correct than the original Hebrew understanding.

vinsight4u · Aug 29, 2019

Shrewd Manager · Aug 29, 2019

vinsight4u said:
The others on the new earth will be required to out and view this lake
of fire area with its undying worm - and the reason they go out - for -
is to see that part and be abhorred.

What is this undying worm then, and does it appear in Revelation?

eleos1954 · Aug 29, 2019

vinsight4u said:
="vinsight4u, post: 74242608, member: 10688"]all that do -wickedly= from Malachi 4:1

Back to the original OP .. and NO God does not torture people in "hell" for eternity.

“The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust
under punishment for the day of judgment” 2 Peter 2:9

There is not one single person in hellfire today. The Bible says that God reserves, or holds back, the wicked until the day of judgment to be punished.

Where are the unsaved who have already died?

“The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation” John 5:28, 29
“That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? … Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb” Job 21:30, 32 KJV

The Bible is specific. Both the unsaved and the saved who have died (earthly death) are in their graves “sleeping” (dormant) until their resurrection day.

What is the end result of sin?

“The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” Romans 6:23

“Sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death” James 1:15

“God … gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish (death for eternity) but have everlasting life (for eternity)” John 3:16

Jesus died to save us from our sins. Those who do not accept His gift of salvation will receive death.

The wages for (or the result of) sin is death, not everlasting life in hellfire. The wicked “perish,” or receive “death (never to exist again).” The righteous receive “everlasting life.”

Why is understanding what death is so difficult? When one dies on earth all cease to exist on earth and rest (dormant) in their graves, until the Lord returns. 1st resurrection are changed become immortal and are with the Lord.

1st Corinthians 15

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55“Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

After the 2nd resurrection (the unsaved) ... all die the second death (do not become immortal) are destroyed (GWTJ) and cease to exist for eternity.

Revelation 20:14

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 15:26

26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Sin is not totally destroyed unless death is destroyed for eternity.

No one living in "hell", being tortured ... death is destroyed and is final for eternity ... just like earthly death is final for our existence on earth ... so the 2nd death will be final for eternity.

It's not difficult to understand ... and this posters mom is correct .... God does not torture people for eternity. They are destroyed (never to exist again) due to the choices each one made while alive on earth in not receiving Jesus and His forgiveness, and from not repenting from their sin.

Death is death (not to exist). Life is life (to exist).[/QUOTE]

Bodies are what sleep in the graves, but the NT shows that Jesus Christ led captivity
captive and will bring the sleeping saints with Him at the last trumpet time.
Why was Jacob gathered just after he died? He wasn't buried for months.
Why did Samuel, after he died -get called up to speak to Saul - and tell him that
he and his sons would join him the next day? Saul was not buried right after he
died, not till days later even.
Why would Jesus Christ tell a story about a great gulf dividing wicked and saved-where
the wicked can't get water nor mercy? Why did Jesus Christ tell that story as to there being more people on each side along with those that were specifically mentioned?

The body waits to be resurrected and judged, but the soul never died the first death,
so why would it die in the second death =lake of fire time?

1 Peter 3:4
What do you think this verse tells us?

1 Peter 3:4 Commentaries: but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.[/QUOTE]

Bodies are what sleep in the graves, but the NT shows that Jesus Christ led captivity
captive and will bring the sleeping saints with Him at the last trumpet time.

Scripture gives us a simple equation for understanding the nature of humans:
Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
A living person (a soul).

Nowhere does the Bible speak of the soul as an immortal entity capable of living apart from our body. Neither does it speak of the spirit as an entity which can exist independent of our physical nature. We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul, and spirit in one indivisible whole

Der Alte · Aug 29, 2019

Anguspure said:
If the fire is everlasting this says nothing about the life of things thrown into it.

In the context of other verses on this topic it does.

Death tends to be eternal, and generally refers to the state of being dead as opposed to being alive.

I addressed this you ignored it. Matt 25:46 does NOT say eternal death. It says eternal punishment. And as Justin Martyr said "it is not punishment unless they are conscious." You have any early church evidence which says "eternal death." I have read the ECF ther ain't none.

This sentence refers to a worm that does not die, not a person. The "worm" (maggot) does not die because it feasts on dead things. Worms do not eat living flesh.

Read my post many Jews, possibly even some of the disciples believed that the worms were eternal. If God wants the worms to be eternal, they will be.

Nothing here about eternal anything, just that at some point there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I'm sorry where does that verse say the gnashing and wailing ends? According to other verses it does not.

Drowning is a cause of death, not eternal life in the naughty place.

Another verse you did not read. It says a fate worse than drowning i.e. being dead.

Nothing about eternal life in hell here either.

Where does it say depart from me but by and by I will welcome you back? What does "never" mean?

Much better not to be born than face the second death.

Where does that say "second death?"

Sodom is no longer burning even, far less the residents within in it still being alive and suffering.

Another twisted scripture. It is not talking about what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah in the past but what happens in the future.

I'm somewhat surprised you didn't choose this passage from Revelation 14...

A similar passage in Isaiah 34 refers to the destruction of Edom:..

Irrelevant references omitted I was talking only about what Jesus taught.

Death by being thrown in a burning lake of fire would be pretty awful and a whole lot worse that non-existence or many other deaths, such as hanging or shooting, or even drowning for that matter. It is a rather far fetch to suggest that what is meant in these passages implies eternal life in hell.

Twisting scripture again. It is not comparing various means of death. It says a punishment worse than death without mercy.

If there is any advantage to be gained in punishment then it implies that once the punishment will at some point have had the desired advantagous effect. We could then reasonably expect that the punishmnet will the n cease and life may continue without further punishment. This passage in fact lends itself towards universalism.

Please show me where scripture says anything about punishment being advantageous?

As previously noted, what the Jews believed and what is true is quite irrelevant. Remember the Jews did not beleive that He was God Incarnate either.

Your opinion about the relevance of the then contemporary Jewish belief in hell is itself irrelevant. It is most certainly relevant because many people believed it and Jesus' teaching never contradicted it as I have shown.

That "that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," is an unjustified extraploation of the passage in Revelation I referred to earlier and is perhaps only justified if the the Hellenistic view of Jewish scripture is more correct than the original Hebrew understanding.

You have got to be kidding. You think that "the Hellenistic view of Jewish scripture is more correct than the original Hebrew understanding" is ridiculous. Even if it were true it would be irrelevant because that is what the Jews at the time of Jesus believed about hell and Jesus never taught them differently.
"that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," has nothing to do with Revelation it was written a few 100 years before Revelation. And that is what many Jews believed at the time of Jesus and once again Jesus never contradicted this belief.
Do you suppose that Jesus did not know what His fellow Jews believed about hell?

Der Alte · Aug 29, 2019

Anguspure said:
egin

<AP>Mainstream Judaism was largely Hellenised by about the time of the Septuagint. If we want to determine pre-hellenistic Jewish thought we need to go back further from that, and if we want to investigate Jewish thought free of all pagan philosophy we need to look before the Babylonian diaspora and Talmud.
Even before then, as scripture itself reveals, the Jews had allowed themselves to be heavily side tracked by pagan thought to the extent of forgetting where the Scriptural books were even stored.
So to drag up some Jewish thinking from the 1st century as if it reflects the unadulterated truth according to the words given in the Law and the Prophets is patently wrong.
The Torah in Hebrew contains not a hint of dualism.<AP>

end

No evidence! Even if true all totally irrelevant. I quoted three Jewish sources documenting a major belief of the Jews about hell at the time of Jesus and when Jesus taught on the subject He never taught differently. Maybe Jesus didn't know what His fellow Jews believed about hell.

Rubiks · Aug 29, 2019

Der Alter said:
It says eternal punishment. And as Justin Martyr said "it is not punishment unless they are conscious." You have any early church evidence which says "eternal death."

That is just a personal opinion. The death penalty is indeed a punishment. Whether the punishment fits the crime, is another, irrelevant, question. When you look at intertestamental literature, "eternal punishment" could refer to either ECT or annihilation.

In order to understand NT theology, we should look how these terms are used before the NT.

Rubiks · Aug 29, 2019

Der Alter said:
<AP>Mainstream Judaism was largely Hellenised by about the time of the Septuagint. If we want to determine pre-hellenistic Jewish thought we need to go back further from that, and if we want to investigate Jewish thought free of all pagan philosophy we need to look before the Babylonian diaspora and Talmud.
Even before then, as scripture itself reveals, the Jews had allowed themselves to be heavily side tracked by pagan thought to the extent of forgetting where the Scriptural books were even stored.
So to drag up some Jewish thinking from the 1st century as if it reflects the unadulterated truth according to the words given in the Law and the Prophets is patently wrong.
The Torah in Hebrew contains not a hint of dualism.<AP>
No evidence! Even if true all totally irrelevant. I quoted three Jewish sources documenting a major belief of the Jews about hell at the time of Jesus and when Jesus taught on the subject He never taught differently. Maybe Jesus didn't know what His fellow Jews believed about hell.

Angusprune is correct

Confronted with Greek ideas, some attempted to combine Greek intellectual values with Hebrew ones; such efforts were more successful in Egypt than in Judea. However, even in Judea the Hellenizing movement under Antiochus IV came near to prevailing. Ultimately the Jews organized their culture and their political life on their own terms, as witnessed by the rise of the Essenes and Pharisees. The independence of Jewish intellectual life in the Hellenistic age is partly explained by the fact that while Jews took a great interest in Greek ideas, the outside world took relatively little interest in Hebrew ideas. The translation of the Bible into Greek did not mean that the Greeks read the Bible. The isolation in which the Jews lived, especially in Judea, was conducive to the creation of a style of thought and life which can be (and was) considered competitive with Hellenistic civilization.

The influence of Greek thought on Diaspora Jews starts with the Septuagint (the alleged meeting of a Jew with Aristotle (Jos., Apion, 1:176–82) is fictitious). Recent investigators, on the whole, agree that there is no systematic pattern of Hellenizing, and that the Greek elements tend to be superficial and decorative rather than deep-seated and significant. Again, it was formerly thought that the language of the Septuagint was a kind of Jewish Greek which would be unintelligible to non-Jews; but the papyri show that the language is that of Hellenistic Egypt. Yet the fact that, for example, "Torah" was translated as nomos ("law"), emunah as pistis ("belief"), and ẓedakah as dikaiosynē ("justice") brought the connotations, especially Platonic, of these words to the Greek reader ignorant of the original. Hence Paul could preach antinomianism to an audience that looked upon the Torah as a law which could be repealed rather than as a way of life, and when the injunction Elohim lo tekalel (Ex. 22:24) was interpreted to mean "Thou shalt not curse the gods," it became a text for Philo (De Vita Mosis, 2:205; Spec., 1:53) and Josephus (Apion, 2:237; Ant., 4:207) to preach liberalism toward other religions. Apparently because they saw the danger in the adulation of the Septuagint by the Hellenistic Jews, the rabbis changed their initially favorable reaction to the translation (Meg. 9b) to a bitter comment (Sof. 1:7) comparing the completion of the Septuagint with the making of the golden calf. The stature of the Septuagint is obvious in the fragments of the Greco-Jewish historian Demetrius , who already in the latter part of the third century B.C.E. followed the Septuagint's patriarchal chronology rather than that of the Hebrew text, though his Septuagint was not quite identical with any of our versions.

Among the most obvious instances of Greek influence on Jewish writers are Philo the Elder's epic poem On Jerusalem (c. 100 B.C.E.) in Homeric hexameters, and that of his presumed contemporary Theodotus , a Samaritan, on the rape of Dinah. Ezekiel the poet, at about the same time, composed tragedies, of which a portion of one, The Exodus, is extant, a veritable exercise in Euripidean trimeters. Among Apocryphal books the Wisdom of Ben Sira, dating from perhaps the second century B.C.E., uses a number of technical terms drawn from Platonic and Stoic philosophy; and such a view as the preexistence of the soul is apparently drawn from Plato. It and its presumed contemporary, IV Maccabees , are reminiscent of Cynic-Stoic diatribes. Furthermore, the latter shows Greek influence in its presentation of the Torah as teaching the four cardinal virtues; the arguments are pervasively Stoic, and the form of the disputation is modeled on Plato's Gorgias. Of Philo it was said already by Jerome (De Viris Illustribus, 11), "Either Plato philonizes or Philo platonizes." That his Hellenization transcends mere language can be seen in his description of Moses' education, which is presumably held up as an ideal. His Egyptian instructors are said to have taught him arithmetic, geometry, harmonics, and philosophy (De Vita Mosis, 1:23–24), the very subjects which constitute the higher education of Plato's philosopher-king (Republic, 521c–535a), while his Greek teachers are said to have taught him the rest of the regular school course – presumably, grammar, rhetoric, and logic. In his profound debt to Platonism Philo is similar to the author of IV Maccabees, his presumed contemporary.

salt-n-light · Aug 29, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
God is the Creator of all things. He loves everything He created, according to Genesis 1. But God hates Satan and demons and does not want anyone to live in the lake of fire that He created. I don't get it. My mom said a loving God would not create hell because He does not want people to suffer eternally, so she does not believe it exists. Why isn't this true?

What exactly does she believe that she is being saved from?

Albion · Aug 29, 2019

RickardoHolmes said:
It is preposterous to believe that a perfect, loving God would create humans with flaws and then blame humans for God's own Error.

When God created the first humans, however, they were not flawed. And he was not the author of the failings which they entered into. So what we get now is simply what The Fall, as it is called, produced.

Der Alte · Aug 29, 2019

Rubiks said:
That is just a personal opinion. The death penalty is indeed a punishment. Whether the punishment fits the crime, is another, irrelevant, question. When you look at intertestamental literature, "eternal punishment" could refer to either ECT or annihilation.
In order to understand NT theology, we should look how these terms are used before the NT.

It was the belief of a 2nd century Christian. Do you have any credible, verifiable, historical evidence which proves Justin wrong?
I have examined the terms used before the NT in my [post #207] this thread where I quote from the Talmud, Jewish Encyclopedia, and Encyclopedia Judaica.

GodLovesCats · Aug 29, 2019

salt-n-light said:
What exactly does she believe that she is being saved from?

Mom is bothered by the idea that people are "saved." I guess she just thinks death is death and our only benefit is a happy eternal life.

FWIW she is a Methodist and has other beliefs that do not mesh with mine.

Rubiks · Aug 29, 2019

Der Alter said:
It was the belief of a 2nd century Christian. Do you have any credible, verifiable, historical evidence which proves Justin wrong?
I have examined the terms used before the NT in my [post #207] this thread where I quote from the Talmud, Jewish Encyclopedia, and Encyclopedia Judaica.

Pardon me if I misunderstood your post, but why would I need "evidence" (as in a photograph) that Justin idea that "a punishment is not a punishment unless it is conscious" is wrong? It's not a claim that can be supported by evidence. It's a philosophical question in nature, and it's absurd to say that the death penalty isn't a punishment at all. At the very least, the knowledge of impending death brings fear and anxiety.

Since you accept the Jewish Encyclopedia as a source, here is a quotation from it:

The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato

Tyler52 · Aug 29, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
It's a fallacy because they look at how it's used in pagan literature and assume it's used the same way in Christian literature. This results in the profaning of the holy name of God by a kind of idolatry. Despite what you want to believe, the Bible tells us that God saves His enemies ultimately. If you have an issue, take it up with John the Revelator and his final vision which explicitly and undeniably shows all the nations emerging repentant from the fire to enter into the City of God for worship and healing. Or haven't you read to the end of the book yet? If not, sorry for the spoiler.

It doesn't say that!
Revelation 20:11-15 NIV
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. [13] The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. [14] Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. [15] Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
See, verse 15, the non believers are dead.
Revelation 21:6-8 NIV
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. [7] Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. [8] But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars---they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Do you see my point yet? Non believers will reap what they sow (This includes fake Christians). TheyTface the second death. Whey you say is heresy and completely false. The only one disagreeing with Jesus (who gave John his Revelation) is you.

salt-n-light · Aug 29, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
Mom is bothered by the idea that people are "saved." I guess she just thinks death is death and our only benefit is a happy eternal life.

FWIW she is a Methodist and has other beliefs that do not mesh with mine.

What about being saved from something a negative thing for her or bothers her? I'm not familiar with Methodist theology so i can't say how it bears any influence if at all, but that's the whole point of Jesus lol.

Der Alte · Aug 29, 2019

Rubiks said:
Pardon me if I misunderstood your post, but why would I need "evidence" (as in a photograph) that Justin idea that "a punishment is not a punishment unless it is conscious" is wrong? It's not a claim that can be supported by evidence. It's a philosophical question in nature, and it's absurd to say that the death penalty isn't a punishment at all. At the very least, the knowledge of impending death brings fear and anxiety.
Since you accept the Jewish Encyclopedia as a source, here is a quotation from it:

.....The type of evidence I asked for was credible, verifiable, historical evidence which proves Justin wrong? Is there any other historical writing at or after the time of Justin which refutes his statement "they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment?"
.....As for you quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia as interesting as it may be for you is not relevant to my post in any way.
Here is something the Bible says about some kind of conscious awareness after death.
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word םשל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..The jews considered Isa 14:9-11 to be factual.

Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
“When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).”
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

GodLovesCats · Aug 29, 2019

salt-n-light said:
What makes being saved from something a negative thing for her? I'm not familiar with Methodist theology so i can't say how it bears any influence if at all, but that's the whole point of Jesus lol.

Mom did not explain this to me, so I am just as confused as you are. I asked her what she thinks the lake of fire is. She had never heard of it.

Methodists are mainstream Protestants who believe in infant baptism and requiring pastors to move from church to church.

Tyler52 · Aug 29, 2019

Rubiks said:
Pardon me if I misunderstood your post, but why would I need "evidence" (as in a photograph) that Justin idea that "a punishment is not a punishment unless it is conscious" is wrong? It's not a claim that can be supported by evidence. It's a philosophical question in nature, and it's absurd to say that the death penalty isn't a punishment at all. At the very least, the knowledge of impending death brings fear and anxiety.

Since you accept the Jewish Encyclopedia as a source, here is a quotation from it:

"Cough" "cough", Sheol, "cough" "cough"
Resurrection "cough" Gahanna "cough"

Theophilus2019 · Aug 29, 2019

Hell exists for at least a couple of good reasons.

1 Sending evil people to Hell is perhaps the most loving thing a loving god can do with them. Think about it. For a sinful soul to spend eternity in the presence of a holy God would be like standing in a blast furnace for ever. In sending people to Hell God puts them out of his presence, which is awful but not as awful as keeping them in his overpowering presence.

2 How can a good and loving God allow anything or anyone evil into Heaven? Think about it. If you create a lovely garden for children to play in you don’t want poisons and danger there. The same with God’s saved people and the unsaved. So God has to put evil outside, which is Hell.

Hell is an awful reality to which fallen man goes by default, and the Bible is God’s loving warning and instructions on how to avoid it.

Why does hell exist?

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