Why does hell exist?

Anguspure

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<AP>Death is far from rosy, and meeting ones demise by burning even less so.
What advantage is their in anybodies punishment unless it is restorative or restitutional? The doctrine of eternal conscious life in hell meets neither criteria. Certainly it will not be satisfying in any way to the children of God. Bad enough that hell will be visible to us forever without the thought that our loved ones and not so loved ones writhe in eternal torment withing the flames.
The only criteria that is met by hell is the removal of sin and evil from creation, and this criteria is met irrespective of whether those thus disposed of are conscious of it or not.<AP>

Once again you totally ignored my post and substituted your assumptions/presuppositions.
Which, if any, scripture establishes the criteria that punishment is restorative or restitutional?
Who decides if the criteria is met, men or God?
My point is exactly that, scripturally speaking I do not see any restorative or restitutional justice in the second death. It is therefore completely pointless, and in fact sadistic, that it would involve eternal conscious torment.
YHWH God declares that His nature is Agape Love and demonstrates this through YEHUSHUA. The doctrine of eternal life in pain and suffering is clearly incompatible with the nature of this Loving person.
Given that unconditional immortality is demonstrably an import from Greek mysticism and philosophy then it would seem that the doctrine is incorrect and that the character of God is indeed one of Love.
Where does scripture say that hell will be visible forever to the saints in heaven?
The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus raises this possibility and then in the Revelation we find: They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.
As I showed by quoting one ECF punishment is not punishment unless those who receive it are conscious despite what some Christians believe today.
Just as when we execute a person they are indeed conscious of their punishment but once the punishment (which by the way is pretty eternal, and precisely the reason why the death penalty is used, we don't find executed people getting up and walking around after they have been executed) has been completed the person is no longer concsious of anything, that is because they are dead.

Therefore eternal punishment meant exactly that punishment that is eternal.
Yes, I believe that it is eternal. Death (that we are not resurrected from) does tend to be eternal in nature, irrespective of the means by which we meet that death.
Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the NT. If He had intended to say eternal death that is what He would have said.
Death is the punishment for sin is repeated ad nauseum in Scripture. Jesus would assume that everybody knows that the eternal punishment is death, that being because death by execution in some form is undeniably a punishment and , notwithstanding the hope of resurrection, eternal.
 
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It is a pity that this thread did not include a poll. Given the fact that modern life is driven by polls and the media, we could have determined, by popular opinion, the truth of this essential doctrine of Christianity.

There is no poll question to ask in a thread like this one. I am looking for answers, not opinions.
 
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<AP>My point is exactly that, scripturally speaking I do not see any [personal opinion no scripture DA] restorative or restitutional justice in the second death. It is therefore completely pointless, and in fact sadistic, that it would involve eternal conscious torment.[Personal opinion, no scripture, DA]
YHWH God declares that His nature is Agape Love and demonstrates this through YEHUSHUA. The doctrine of eternal life in pain and suffering is clearly incompatible with the nature of this Loving person.[Personal opinion, no scripture. DA]
Given that unconditional immortality is demonstrably an import from Greek mysticism and philosophy [Assumption. See my post below. DA] then it would seem that the doctrine is incorrect and that the character of God is indeed one of Love.
The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus raises this possibility and then in the Revelation we find: They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.
Just as when we execute a person they are indeed conscious of their punishment but once the punishment (which by the way is pretty eternal, and precisely the reason why the death penalty is used, we don't find executed people getting up and walking around after they have been executed) has been completed the person is no longer concsious of anything, that is because they are dead
.[What happens to dead people in this world is no indication of what happens to dead people after judgement.DA]
Yes, I believe that it is eternal. Death (that we are not resurrected from) does tend to be eternal in nature, irrespective of the means by which we meet that death.
Death is the punishment for sin is repeated ad nauseum in Scripture. Jesus would assume that everybody knows that the eternal punishment is death, that being because death by execution in some form is undeniably a punishment and , notwithstanding the hope of resurrection, eternal.<AP>
Incorrect. "the wages of sin is death" only occurs one time in the Bible. Here is a post I made earlier in this thread which addresses all your arguments, including the false claim of pagan Greek influence.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it often had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only reinforce those beliefs.
 
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.Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only reinforce those beliefs.

Simple - he was warning them not to teach it on the principle 'as ye judge, so shall ye be judged'. So the irony here is that those preaching the 'turn or burn' gospel will 'burn to turn'. Hence woe unto you scribes and pharisees, ye compass the land and sea to make one proselyte, then make one twice the sons of hell you are.
 
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Anguspure

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<AP>My point is exactly that, scripturally speaking I do not see any [personal opinion no scripture DA] restorative or restitutional justice in the second death. It is therefore completely pointless, and in fact sadistic, that it would involve eternal conscious torment.[Personal opinion, no scripture, DA]
YHWH God declares that His nature is Agape Love and demonstrates this through YEHUSHUA. The doctrine of eternal life in pain and suffering is clearly incompatible with the nature of this Loving person.[Personal opinion, no scripture. DA]
Given that unconditional immortality is demonstrably an import from Greek mysticism and philosophy [Assumption. See my post below. DA] then it would seem that the doctrine is incorrect and that the character of God is indeed one of Love.
The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus raises this possibility and then in the Revelation we find: They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.
Just as when we execute a person they are indeed conscious of their punishment but once the punishment (which by the way is pretty eternal, and precisely the reason why the death penalty is used, we don't find executed people getting up and walking around after they have been executed) has been completed the person is no longer concsious of anything, that is because they are dead
.[What happens to dead people in this world is no indication of what happens to dead people after judgement.DA]
Yes, I believe that it is eternal. Death (that we are not resurrected from) does tend to be eternal in nature, irrespective of the means by which we meet that death.
Death is the punishment for sin is repeated ad nauseum in Scripture. Jesus would assume that everybody knows that the eternal punishment is death, that being because death by execution in some form is undeniably a punishment and , notwithstanding the hope of resurrection, eternal.<AP>


…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only reinforce those beliefs.
"GOD’S PUNISHMENT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.

Through out the Old Testament the worst punishment was always death, never torment. If, as the argument is that God causing the lost to be eternally suffering is the only form of punishment, and that annihilation would not be punishment, the Old Testament writers did not seem to know that death would not be punishment. A few of the many times death is said to be punishment in the Old Testament, Exodus 21:12; 21:14; 21:15; 21:16; 21:17; 21:23; 21:29; Leviticus 20:2; 20:9; 20:10; 20:11; 20:12; 20:13; 20:14; 20:15; 20:16; 20:27; Genesis 2:17; Ezekiel 18:4; 18:20. In none of these punishment torment or consciousness after death is not implies.

Wayne Jackson in the “Christian Courier” said, “Punishment implies consciousness. It would be absurd to describe those who no longer exist as being ‘punished.’”

(1) According to him, those who get “death” for killing a person would not be punished.

(2) According to him Paul was wrong when he said, “The wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23).

(3) According to him “The wages of sin” cannot be “death” for in “death” there is no consciousness, and it would be absurd to say, “The wages of sin is death.” The argument that death is not punishment is nothing but a desperate attempt to change death to life, to change, “The wages of sin is death” to “the wages of sin is an endless life of consciousness suffering, an endless life of God making them to suffer.”

Summary - Whatever the punishment is in Matthew 25:46, it is the same punishment as Romans 6:16; 6:23; 8:6; Revelation 21:8; James 5:22; 2 Peter 2:1; 2:6; 3:7; Philippians 1:28; 3:19; 2 Corinthians 7:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Matthew 3:12; 13:40; John 3:16, etc. The Bible does not teach one kind of punishment in one verse and then change it to a very different kind of punishment in another verse. It does not teach the punishment is everlasting life with torment in one verse and death in another verse. It comes down to the question of,

1. Is the wages of sin death, or is the wages of sin everlasting life being tormented by God?

2. Is the second death a death, or is the second death everlasting life?

3. Did God really mean "the wages of sin is eternal life with torment," and He mistakenly said, "The wages of sin is death?"

A passage that does not say what the punishment is cannot override the many passages that do say what it is. From Matthew 25:46 alone, no one can say anything about what the punishment will be or will not be. The only way to know what is the punishment of Matthew 25:46 is to go to other passages that do say how God is going to punish the lost. THAT A PASSAGE, WHICH DOES NOT SAY WHAT THE PUNISHMENT WILL BE AND SAYS NOTHING ABOUT HELL IS THE #1 PROOF TEXT FOR HELL SHOWS THE WEAKNESS OF THE PROOF. Can anyone deny that they are going beyond what the Bible says when they say Matthew 25:56 says what the punishment will be, and deny that they are adding eternal life in Hell to Matthew 25:56 when it is not in it?

Is the only difference only a difference in what the punishment will be? Robert A. Peterson, a strong believer in Hell, says, the Old Testament judgments, the Flood, the destruction of Sodom, and Gomorrah, the Egyptian plagues and the crossing of the Red Sea, the captivities of Israel was ALL the loss of human life (page 23-24 of “Hell On Trial). Then on page 26, he says the punishments described in them are consistently earthly and temporal, resulting in physical death. None of these passages speak of life after death or eternal destinies, but he says Annihilationist err, for their belief would entail cessation of existence at death, not the resurrection and punishment of the wicked, "Hell On Trial" P & R Publishing. The New Testament used them as a type of God's judgment after the resurrection; Peterson on page 26 says they resulted in physical death. If the result of the judgment is not death, but an everlasting life of torment, then the types are not true for the types of the Old Testament does not show eternal life with punishment; but they would be true if death is the punishment. The New Testament writers used the Old Testament types to show the destruction of (death), not the torment of the lost. He errs in that he does not give God the power to raise the dead for judgment and punishment if the punishment is to be death; he takes away God’s power to raise the dead if they are dead. God will raise and judge the dead, and just as His judgments in the Old Testament resulted "in death" (Peterson), so will His judgment at the resurrection be a second death. His statement that Annihilationist err because they believe the first death to be the end of those not in Christ, and that the lost will not be raised for judgment may possibly be true of some Annihilationist (none, not even one that I know of), but it is definitely not true of most; it is an outright lie to say Annihilationist do not believe the lost will be resurrected for judgment; most, if not all that have been labeled Annihilationist believe the Bible teaching that all the dead will be raised for the judgment at the second coming of Christ, then for those not in Christ there will be the second death, an eternal death from which there will never be a resurrection.Did Robert A. Peterson just make a make-believe man of hay or stubble so that he could pull down his stubble Annihilationist; his statement that those he calls Annihilationist do not believe the lost will not be resurrected for judgment just is not true.

The only difference is in what the punishment will be after the judgment. Believers in Hell believe the punishment, “The wages of sin is death” will not be death but will be "everlasting life being tormented by God." Those who believe in Hell often argue as if they think that those who oppose Hell do not believe in the resurrection, the judgment, or punishment. They know that if Annihilationist do believe in the resurrection, judgment and punishment, they have loss much of their argument, for if the dead are all raised for judgment then the only question is after the judgment what will the punishment be, and there is no question that the Bible says “the wages of sin is death.” In much of his book he does as many, (1) he assumes that those who do not believe in "Hell" do not believe the lost will be raised for judgment, (2) and he assumes that there is a Hell, (3) and assumes that Hell is its name; then he unjustly puts this name into the mouth of Christ.

A more basic question than what the punishment will be after the resurrection is, "What is the resurrection?" “Will the resurrection be a real resurrection of the dead?” If Peterson was right, that there is something in a person that NOW has immortality, and this something in a person is now alive, and that there is no death for whatever this “it” is, then there cannot be a resurrection for whatever this deathless soul is; Peterson’s belief makes them be the one that does not believe in the resurrection that he falsely says those they calls Annihilationist do believe in. What he falsely calls the resurrection would only be a bringing of those souls that are alive in Heaven, or souls that are alive in Hell back to earth for a second judgment; the Bible says there will be a real resurrection, a real raising the dead that are really dead and bringing them back to life? On page 68 Peterson says God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the lost, but to rescue them from Hell. This is a typical example of the way Hell is added to the Bible. The Bible is changed to read the way they want it to read and Hell is added where it is not. How could Peterson or anyone know the lost shall be rescued from Hell? Do they have a revelation that is not in the Bible? There is no revelation in the Bible that says deathless souls are rescued from Hell, but there is much revelation that says lost persons are saved from death. "Let him know that he who converts a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul (psukee–life) from death" (James 5:20). Salvation is from death, the wages of sin (Romans 6:23), not salvation from an everlasting life of being tormented by God. "God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has the life; he that has not the Son of God has not the life" (1 John 5:11-12).

E. D. SLOUGH, evangelist, Church of Christ, “The word ‘punishment’ is not a puzzling word; it is one of the most familiar terms in the English language. Do you know its meaning? Just think a moment and try to define it. The dictionary tells us it is the infliction of penalty for an offense. Is it? If the teacher tells the pupil she will ‘punish’ him a question would spring up in his mind, what way? Even the child knows there are many ways to punish. Though our theologians, after losing sight of the definition of the word, at last give it but one idea, that of misery. Cunning enough, indeed, to separate it from its primary meaning in the New Testament. As if death inflicted for sin was not a punishment. If it is a recompense of the some nature, what is the nature, how severe? The term punishment as a retaliation for offence, never defines the nature of the infliction to be executes. It only announces the fact that a judicial penalty is due, without revealing the severity of it. Punishment, retaliation, recompense, penalty, are synonymous words, and may be used interchangeably. So if the Lord had said, ‘These shall go into everlasting recompense’ or penalty, or retaliation, we would still be forced to seek other scriptures to learn what kind of recompense is meant. We are told there can be no punishment without pain. I deny the assertion. I challenge the reader to search the Old Testament for the hundreds of instances where the infliction of death was the penalty for crimes. And that it was inflicted to satisfy the offence regardless of the pain accompanying it. Punishment lasts so long as its results last, and where death has been administered for the satisfaction of crime; the punishment continues till life is restored, and if never restored, it is an everlasting punishment. Lost of property, loss of liberty, loss of life, may all be meted out to the transgressors under the label of punishment. And death as the capital punishment, legalized on the statutes of all civilized nations of the world, is the highest punishment man can inflict–or so recognized,–being the deprivation of life, the first source of all pleasures and enjoyments, and recognized as being forfeited for certain crimes.” “The Indictment Of Eternal Torment–The Self–negation Of A Monstrous Doctrine,” page 196–197, F. L. Rowe, Publisher, 1914. Free on the web at, http://www.robertwr.com/EternalTorment.htm

Summary - There is no way that those who believe all are born immortal could really believe in the resurrection, or in the need for it. By teaching that all are born with an immortal something in them that can never die the resurrection is denied and made not possible. (1) A living soul that is now alive and will be alive when Christ comes (2) and the resurrection of those that are dead are not compatible; BOTH CANNOT BE TRUE. Satan has done his work well."

Excerpt from: http://www.robertwr.com/
 
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"GOD’S PUNISHMENT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.

Through out the Old Testament the worst punishment was always death, never torment. If, as the argument is that God causing the lost to be eternally suffering is the only form of punishment, and that annihilation would not be punishment, the Old Testament writers did not seem to know that death would not be punishment. A few of the many times death is said to be punishment in the Old Testament, Exodus 21:12; 21:14; 21:15; 21:16; 21:17; 21:23; 21:29; Leviticus 20:2; 20:9; 20:10; 20:11; 20:12; 20:13; 20:14; 20:15; 20:16; 20:27; Genesis 2:17; Ezekiel 18:4; 18:20. In none of these punishment torment or consciousness after death is not implies.

Wayne Jackson in the “Christian Courier” said, “Punishment implies consciousness. It would be absurd to describe those who no longer exist as being ‘punished.’”

(1) According to him, those who get “death” for killing a person would not be punished.

(2) According to him Paul was wrong when he said, “The wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23).

(3) According to him “The wages of sin” cannot be “death” for in “death” there is no consciousness, and it would be absurd to say, “The wages of sin is death.” The argument that death is not punishment is nothing but a desperate attempt to change death to life, to change, “The wages of sin is death” to “the wages of sin is an endless life of consciousness suffering, an endless life of God making them to suffer.”

Summary - Whatever the punishment is in Matthew 25:46, it is the same punishment as Romans 6:16; 6:23; 8:6; Revelation 21:8; James 5:22; 2 Peter 2:1; 2:6; 3:7; Philippians 1:28; 3:19; 2 Corinthians 7:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Matthew 3:12; 13:40; John 3:16, etc. The Bible does not teach one kind of punishment in one verse and then change it to a very different kind of punishment in another verse. It does not teach the punishment is everlasting life with torment in one verse and death in another verse. It comes down to the question of,

1. Is the wages of sin death, or is the wages of sin everlasting life being tormented by God?

2. Is the second death a death, or is the second death everlasting life?

3. Did God really mean "the wages of sin is eternal life with torment," and He mistakenly said, "The wages of sin is death?"

A passage that does not say what the punishment is cannot override the many passages that do say what it is. From Matthew 25:46 alone, no one can say anything about what the punishment will be or will not be. The only way to know what is the punishment of Matthew 25:46 is to go to other passages that do say how God is going to punish the lost. THAT A PASSAGE, WHICH DOES NOT SAY WHAT THE PUNISHMENT WILL BE AND SAYS NOTHING ABOUT HELL IS THE #1 PROOF TEXT FOR HELL SHOWS THE WEAKNESS OF THE PROOF. Can anyone deny that they are going beyond what the Bible says when they say Matthew 25:56 says what the punishment will be, and deny that they are adding eternal life in Hell to Matthew 25:56 when it is not in it?

Is the only difference only a difference in what the punishment will be? Robert A. Peterson, a strong believer in Hell, says, the Old Testament judgments, the Flood, the destruction of Sodom, and Gomorrah, the Egyptian plagues and the crossing of the Red Sea, the captivities of Israel was ALL the loss of human life (page 23-24 of “Hell On Trial). Then on page 26, he says the punishments described in them are consistently earthly and temporal, resulting in physical death. None of these passages speak of life after death or eternal destinies, but he says Annihilationist err, for their belief would entail cessation of existence at death, not the resurrection and punishment of the wicked, "Hell On Trial" P & R Publishing. The New Testament used them as a type of God's judgment after the resurrection; Peterson on page 26 says they resulted in physical death. If the result of the judgment is not death, but an everlasting life of torment, then the types are not true for the types of the Old Testament does not show eternal life with punishment; but they would be true if death is the punishment. The New Testament writers used the Old Testament types to show the destruction of (death), not the torment of the lost. He errs in that he does not give God the power to raise the dead for judgment and punishment if the punishment is to be death; he takes away God’s power to raise the dead if they are dead. God will raise and judge the dead, and just as His judgments in the Old Testament resulted "in death" (Peterson), so will His judgment at the resurrection be a second death. His statement that Annihilationist err because they believe the first death to be the end of those not in Christ, and that the lost will not be raised for judgment may possibly be true of some Annihilationist (none, not even one that I know of), but it is definitely not true of most; it is an outright lie to say Annihilationist do not believe the lost will be resurrected for judgment; most, if not all that have been labeled Annihilationist believe the Bible teaching that all the dead will be raised for the judgment at the second coming of Christ, then for those not in Christ there will be the second death, an eternal death from which there will never be a resurrection.Did Robert A. Peterson just make a make-believe man of hay or stubble so that he could pull down his stubble Annihilationist; his statement that those he calls Annihilationist do not believe the lost will not be resurrected for judgment just is not true.

The only difference is in what the punishment will be after the judgment. Believers in Hell believe the punishment, “The wages of sin is death” will not be death but will be "everlasting life being tormented by God." Those who believe in Hell often argue as if they think that those who oppose Hell do not believe in the resurrection, the judgment, or punishment. They know that if Annihilationist do believe in the resurrection, judgment and punishment, they have loss much of their argument, for if the dead are all raised for judgment then the only question is after the judgment what will the punishment be, and there is no question that the Bible says “the wages of sin is death.” In much of his book he does as many, (1) he assumes that those who do not believe in "Hell" do not believe the lost will be raised for judgment, (2) and he assumes that there is a Hell, (3) and assumes that Hell is its name; then he unjustly puts this name into the mouth of Christ.

A more basic question than what the punishment will be after the resurrection is, "What is the resurrection?" “Will the resurrection be a real resurrection of the dead?” If Peterson was right, that there is something in a person that NOW has immortality, and this something in a person is now alive, and that there is no death for whatever this “it” is, then there cannot be a resurrection for whatever this deathless soul is; Peterson’s belief makes them be the one that does not believe in the resurrection that he falsely says those they calls Annihilationist do believe in. What he falsely calls the resurrection would only be a bringing of those souls that are alive in Heaven, or souls that are alive in Hell back to earth for a second judgment; the Bible says there will be a real resurrection, a real raising the dead that are really dead and bringing them back to life? On page 68 Peterson says God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the lost, but to rescue them from Hell. This is a typical example of the way Hell is added to the Bible. The Bible is changed to read the way they want it to read and Hell is added where it is not. How could Peterson or anyone know the lost shall be rescued from Hell? Do they have a revelation that is not in the Bible? There is no revelation in the Bible that says deathless souls are rescued from Hell, but there is much revelation that says lost persons are saved from death. "Let him know that he who converts a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul (psukee–life) from death" (James 5:20). Salvation is from death, the wages of sin (Romans 6:23), not salvation from an everlasting life of being tormented by God. "God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has the life; he that has not the Son of God has not the life" (1 John 5:11-12).

E. D. SLOUGH, evangelist, Church of Christ, “The word ‘punishment’ is not a puzzling word; it is one of the most familiar terms in the English language. Do you know its meaning? Just think a moment and try to define it. The dictionary tells us it is the infliction of penalty for an offense. Is it? If the teacher tells the pupil she will ‘punish’ him a question would spring up in his mind, what way? Even the child knows there are many ways to punish. Though our theologians, after losing sight of the definition of the word, at last give it but one idea, that of misery. Cunning enough, indeed, to separate it from its primary meaning in the New Testament. As if death inflicted for sin was not a punishment. If it is a recompense of the some nature, what is the nature, how severe? The term punishment as a retaliation for offence, never defines the nature of the infliction to be executes. It only announces the fact that a judicial penalty is due, without revealing the severity of it. Punishment, retaliation, recompense, penalty, are synonymous words, and may be used interchangeably. So if the Lord had said, ‘These shall go into everlasting recompense’ or penalty, or retaliation, we would still be forced to seek other scriptures to learn what kind of recompense is meant. We are told there can be no punishment without pain. I deny the assertion. I challenge the reader to search the Old Testament for the hundreds of instances where the infliction of death was the penalty for crimes. And that it was inflicted to satisfy the offence regardless of the pain accompanying it. Punishment lasts so long as its results last, and where death has been administered for the satisfaction of crime; the punishment continues till life is restored, and if never restored, it is an everlasting punishment. Lost of property, loss of liberty, loss of life, may all be meted out to the transgressors under the label of punishment. And death as the capital punishment, legalized on the statutes of all civilized nations of the world, is the highest punishment man can inflict–or so recognized,–being the deprivation of life, the first source of all pleasures and enjoyments, and recognized as being forfeited for certain crimes.” “The Indictment Of Eternal Torment–The Self–negation Of A Monstrous Doctrine,” page 196–197, F. L. Rowe, Publisher, 1914. Free on the web at, http://www.robertwr.com/EternalTorment.htm

Summary - There is no way that those who believe all are born immortal could really believe in the resurrection, or in the need for it. By teaching that all are born with an immortal something in them that can never die the resurrection is denied and made not possible. (1) A living soul that is now alive and will be alive when Christ comes (2) and the resurrection of those that are dead are not compatible; BOTH CANNOT BE TRUE. Satan has done his work well."

Excerpt from: http://www.robertwr.com/

Yes, there's a lot of people getting whacked in the OT. My personal favorite is when Elisha sends in the bears to maul the taunting kids (bald jokes are just cruel). Suffer the little children, says our Lord. Thank God for the new covenant, eh?

But what customarily comes after death, destruction and desolation in the OT - it's restoration, renovation and regeneration. That's the good oil, as per Revelation, where death and hell are cast into the lake of fire, never to be heard from again, unlike the nations and sinners, who are encouraged to get cleaned up and come in get the good life. And they will, we're told. Of course.

Can you offer a plausible alternative reading of Rev 21 and 22, cause I'm yet to hear how the nations can enter the city for healing with the leaves of the tree of life and be concurrently dead or tortured carcases. No, it's sin that's dead, the sinner who dies, and the new man emerges from the fiery baptism transformed, repentant, purified, made righteous, sanctified by grace, call it whatever. No more curse, no more tears. That's just what the narrative says: they all live happily everafter, amen.
 
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Anguspure

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Yes, there's a lot of people getting whacked in the OT. My personal favorite is when Elisha sends in the bears to maul the taunting kids (bald jokes are just cruel). Suffer the little children, says our Lord. Thank God for the new covenant, eh?

But what customarily comes after death, destruction and desolation in the OT - it's restoration, renovation and regeneration. That's the good oil, as per Revelation, where death and hell are cast into the lake of fire, never to be heard from again, unlike the nations and sinners, who are encouraged to get cleaned up and come in get the good life. And they will, we're told. Of course.

Can you offer a plausible alternative reading of Rev 21 and 22, cause I'm yet to hear how the nations can enter the city for healing with the leaves of the tree of life and be concurrently dead or tortured carcases. No, it's sin that's dead, the sinner who dies, and the new man emerges from the fiery baptism transformed, repentant, purified, made righteous, sanctified by grace, call it whatever. No more curse, no more tears. That's just what the narrative says: they all live happily everafter, amen.
Just starting to give this sort of angle more thought at the moment after reading a book my sister gave me. As you can see above my position for the last few years has been along the annihilation road and I agree that eternal conscious torment is incorrect and does not reflect the nature of God, not to mention thoroughly repugnant. Will have a look and revert.
 
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Just starting to give this sort of angle more thought at the moment after reading a book my sister gave me. As you can see above my position for the last few years has been along the annihilation road and I agree that eternal conscious torment is incorrect and does not reflect the nature of God, not to mention thoroughly repugnant. Will have a look and revert.

What's the book?
I can put you on to some good teachings on YT, if you like?
 
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Anthony Edgar

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God is the Creator of all things. He loves everything He created, according to Genesis 1. But God hates Satan and demons and does not want anyone to live in the lake of fire that He created. I don't get it. My mom said a loving God would not create hell because He does not want people to suffer eternally, so she does not believe it exists. Why isn't this true?
I'm not sure what to think of hell. If we are made in the image of God this may mean our souls are immortal, in which case, those who don't go to heaven must spent eternity somewhere else. It's my understanding that Pope Francis doesn't believe in an eternal hell, but I'm not sure if that point of view is theologically correct.
 
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What's the book?
I can put you on to some good teachings on YT, if you like?
The book was "Raising Hell" by Julie Ferwerda. I am always interested in reading new stuff so please feel free.
My main issue with "afterlife" stuff as taught in the main stream is that as a result of seeing the mis-translation of nephesh and psuke in scripture, I no longer believe that the dual nature of man separates at death. I am of the opinion that death does in fact mean death (as in the dead parrot sketch above) and that man is to be resurrected in the body from the dead, as promised in scripture.
This means that when God warns us that our names will be written in the dust, that the penalty for sin is death and that this is an eternal punishment, that He means exactly what He says, that those who die the second death are dead, gone and forgotten.
So although this does not preclude that He may in his mercy yet provide another chance to accept salvation from death (or maybe it is we who the righteous in imitation of Our Lord who will lay down our lives in imitation of Him), it does mean that dead is dead.
 
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I'm not sure what to think of hell. If we are made in the image of God this may mean our souls are immortal, in which case, those who don't go to heaven must spent eternity somewhere else. It's my understanding that Pope Francis doesn't believe in an eternal hell, but I'm not sure if that point of view is theologically correct.
The concept of immortal soul can be traced to Greek mysticism and is really only found in the Scriptures because of a badly skewed translation of the words "Nephesh" (Hebrew) and "Psuke" (Greek) to reflect the ideas that came into the church as a result of the influence of Greek thinkers like Augustine.
 
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The book was "Raising Hell" by Julie Ferwerda. I am always interested in reading new stuff so please feel free.

I've heard that's worth a read.

My favorite underrated no-nonsense universalist pastor Santo Calarco just published a new book, which is great imho. You can get the softcopy edition for a buck. He has active ministries in Indo and South Africa, so well worth supporting (you can donate at his website). Amazed by Grace: Unspeakable, Unstoppable, Universally Restoring Love by Santo Calarco
Some of his YT messages can be found here: Santo Calarco Restoration For All

Otherwise there's a mountain of resources at the Tentmaker site. Tentmaker – Jesus Christ, the savior of all men, especially those who believe. I Tim. 4:10

It's the beautiful true gospel. Look forward to hearing how you go!
 
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You spend eternity somewhere. Would it be fair for the righteous, those who have humbled themselves and repented to accept God's salvation, to spend eternity with those who hate God and will not repent? To spend eternity with extremely dangerous persons? This is not being holier than thou, it's just being realistic. If the unrepentant were sent to heaven the cycle of sin and fall would start all over again. It will be Hell wherever the wicked are.

I never said the wicked God haters should not be punished. The truth is, however, God sees all sinners as imperfect people and does not count sins. To Him, punishment is not dependent on the sin. So in heaven, nobody will be considered more dangerous than anyone else to HIm who brings us up there. We will think about and praise Jesus. We will not hope Adolf Hitler is burning in hell then like we do now.
 
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My logic should be easy to understand. If God does not want anyone to suffer, why would He send people who have no way to even know Him to hell?

Yes, God does hate Satan.

He did not say he does not want anyone to suffer. It's the opposite. He created hell for pain and suffering. We experience that on Earth today due to sin. It isn't what God intended as life on Earth as paradise forever.

I have a personal anecdote in regards to this. I watched the debate between Lawrence Krauss and William Lane Craig on "Is there evidence for God." In it, the question is asked of Krauss what would make him believe in God and he said that if God rearranged the stars and made it read, "I'm here," then he would have to reassess. Some time the same week, a common atheist made front page news by stating that this was not good enough. The non-believers on the other half of the planet would not see. His point was that every atheist, past and present, would have to be convinced that God exists. It was the best argument from an atheist that I ever heard. Thus, only pain and suffering would convince all non-believers that God indeed does exist. In his infinate wisdom, he created hell before he created the universe and everything in it.
 
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Yes, there's a lot of people getting whacked in the OT. My personal favorite is when Elisha sends in the bears to maul the taunting kids (bald jokes are just cruel). Suffer the little children, says our Lord. Thank God for the new covenant, eh?

What are you implying here?

But what customarily comes after death, destruction and desolation in the OT - it's restoration, renovation and regeneration. That's the good oil, as per Revelation, where death and hell are cast into the lake of fire, never to be heard from again, unlike the nations and sinners, who are encouraged to get cleaned up and come in get the good life. And they will, we're told. Of course.

Can you offer a plausible alternative reading of Rev 21 and 22, cause I'm yet to hear how the nations can enter the city for healing with the leaves of the tree of life and be concurrently dead or tortured carcases. No, it's sin that's dead, the sinner who dies, and the new man emerges from the fiery baptism transformed, repentant, purified, made righteous, sanctified by grace, call it whatever. No more curse, no more tears. That's just what the narrative says: they all live happily everafter, amen.
That's not right
Revelation 21:8 NIV
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars---they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Revelation 21:25-27 NIV
On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. [26] The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. [27] Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

It's clear that the nations are not the same nations we have today, and quite frankly, you don't know that just because there are nations, that they will be the ones that existed before the tribulation or if God set them up after. You don't know and you aren't supposed to add, yet you are adding contradictions to it and the Bible as a whole. After all, only those who have Jesus can have eternal life, and those that you speak of, did not have Jesus.
 
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That's not right
Revelation 21:8 NIV
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars---they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Revelation 21:25-27 NIV
On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. [26] The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. [27] Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

It's clear that the nations are not the same nations we have today, and quite frankly, you don't know that just because there are nations, that they will be the ones that existed before the tribulation or if God set them up after. You don't know and you aren't supposed to add, yet you are adding contradictions to it and the Bible as a whole. After all, only those who have Jesus can have eternal life, and those that you speak of, did not have Jesus.

It's no mystery. If anyone wants to know how a story ends, they peek at the last pages of the book. The Bible's no different. St John's final vision in Revelation undeniably supports the idea that the Lake of Fire is remedial - and fulfils prophecy as per the final chapters of Isaiah.

Follow the vicissitudes of the nations.

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. (Rev 20:9)

Looks like curtains for the enemies of God...but wait:

He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” (21:5) Next, heaven descends to earth in the form of the New Jerusalem. (21:10), and we're told...

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth and the nations will bring their glory and honour into it; (21:24,26)

So the nations are delivered from the consuming fire repentant. They are also purified with proof of life so they can enter the City of God, since we're advised of the conditions of entry:

nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (21:27)

But there's more to come. Once they proceed through the ever-open gates (21:25), they find:

a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (22:1-2)

Wow! Did you get that? The nations are consumed by holy fire, and then get admitted to heaven to worship the Almighty and be treated with the healing leaves from the tree of life. There will no longer be any curse (22:3).

But it's no cakewalk. They need encouragement to overcome:

The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. (22:17)

So our job is to encourage the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars (21:7) to no longer do wrong or remain filthy (22:11), but 'wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.' (22:14), and so the words may be said trustworthy and true (22:6): The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen. (22:21)

So let's start by encouraging each other. Cast out that unbelief in God's perfect plan to be all in all!
 
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It's no mystery. If anyone wants to know how a story ends, they peek at the last pages of the book. The Bible's no different. St John's final vision in Revelation undeniably supports the idea that the Lake of Fire is remedial - and fulfils prophecy as per the final chapters of Isaiah.

Follow the vicissitudes of the nations.

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. (Rev 20:9)

Looks like curtains for the enemies of God...but wait:

He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” (21:5) Next, heaven descends to earth in the form of the New Jerusalem. (21:10), and we're told...

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth and the nations will bring their glory and honour into it; (21:24,26)

So the nations are delivered from the consuming fire repentant. They are also purified with proof of life so they can enter the City of God, since we're advised of the conditions of entry:

nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (21:27)

But there's more to come. Once they proceed through the ever-open gates (21:25), they find:

a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (22:1-2)

Wow! Did you get that? The nations are consumed by holy fire, and then get admitted to heaven to worship the Almighty and be treated with the healing leaves from the tree of life. There will no longer be any curse (22:3).

But it's no cakewalk. They need encouragement to overcome:

The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. (22:17)

So our job is to encourage the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars (21:7) to no longer do wrong or remain filthy (22:11), but 'wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.' (22:14), and so the words may be said trustworthy and true (22:6): The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen. (22:21)

So let's start by encouraging each other. Cast out that unbelief in God's perfect plan to be all in all!

Yes, we should seek converts, we do seek converts.
You're the one saying God's plan isn't perfect.
Nations is also another word to refer to gentiles, which the Church is mostly made up of.
Revelation 22:12-17 NIV
“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. [13] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. [14] “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. [15] Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. [16] “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” [17] The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
Yes, so Jesus is inviting people from this time period (late first century) to come to him, not those after the tribulation.
 
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You're the one saying God's plan isn't perfect.

I don't see how that's the case?

Nations is also another word to refer to gentiles, which the Church is mostly made up of.

The nations referred to in Rev 20:9 et seq are the enemies of God who've been gathered from the 4 corners of the flat earth to lay siege to Jerusalem. (Rev 20:7-8)

Yes, so Jesus is inviting people from this time period (late first century) to come to him, not those after the tribulation.

Ah you're a preterist. Well how do you account for the 1000 years in Rev 20:4?
 
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I don't see how that's the case?



The nations referred to in Rev 20:9 et seq are the enemies of God who've been gathered from the 4 corners of the flat earth to lay siege to Jerusalem. (Rev 20:7-8)

Yes and now the nations that marched against God are dead

Revelation 20:7-15 NIV
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison [8] and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth---Gog and Magog---and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. [9] They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. [10] And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. [11] Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. [13] The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. [14] Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. [15] Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
As you can tell, people will be thrown into Gahanna AKA the lake of fire

Ah you're a preterist. Well how do you account for the 1000 years in Rev 20:4?
Revelation 20:4-6 NIV
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
This is talking about believers in Christ, not unbelievers.
 
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