Pastor Joseph Prince

I think Joseph Prince is great.
I have read some of his books, I go through the Destined to Reign daily devotional.
But, there are times when he uses a Scripture to make a point and when I check that Scripture I find he took it out of context.
The point was still Scriptural(in most cases) he just used the wrong verse.
Here is one of the very few examples where I have disagreed with him.
I use Psalms 22:24 to show God didn't turn His back on Jesus.
He says God turned his back on Jesus while He was on the cross and he cites Habakkuk 1:13
Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity:

But he doesn't look at the rest of the passage.

wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

EternallyKeptByJesus said:

But in truth what are the works pushers really attacking when it comes to Joseph Prince?

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I have never said anything publicly about him until now. I know little of him save for his hyper-grace viewpoint. One cannot choose faith or works... because neither are complete without the other. When Prince and others like him are grace only, they are as wrong as those who are works only. "Faith without works is dead being alone"... and that from a man who not only was inspired to write that, but he also walked with God in the flesh. "Work pushers" only seem like work pushers to one who is a grace pusher. We must have both faith and works or we have neither. Without that balance, we have an incomplete gospel.

EternallyKeptByJesus said:

Meaning no criticism to you, but I think Jesus did the same thing as Joseph Prince. When Jesus quoted Isaiah, and spoke of how he came to set the captives free, etc; Jesus stopped before the verse began to speak of judgement.

So I think there is a principle where you can take a verse in pieces as long as it does not contradict God's word. So maybe Joseph Prince is not so wrong after all. It is just a thought, something to think about.

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Not really... and I don't mean any disrespect, but you really are making an assumption here. What we do know is that it is a Hebrew practice to quote a verse in part but pull into your current talk, the entire context from the partial text quoted. See, we are raised into a system today that actually believes that "context" is the verse before and after. Not true, context is ANY influencing factor. So one might have to consider the culture of the day, the people being spoken to, who the speaker is, consider whether or not any rules of exegesis are being used, and so forth. Paul uses a few of the 7 Rules of Hillel over 30 times in his writings. These rules "are design to affect context." And yet, by and large... Christianity doesn't even know these rules exist and certainly can't point out when they are being used.

We need to cease imposing our 21st century Western viewpoint into a 1st century ancient near east document.

I know he has spoken very pointedly AGAINST the late Derek Prince (no relation) and that to me is enough for me to ignore him.

EternallyKeptByJesus said:

Meaning no criticism to you, but I think Jesus did the same thing as Joseph Prince. When Jesus quoted Isaiah, and spoke of how he came to set the captives free, etc; Jesus stopped before the verse began to speak of judgement.

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Not the same at all.
When Jesus stopped short, the rest of what He could have quoted was for another day.
But in Hab 1:13 the second part of the verse brings light to the first part of the verse.

Dave-W said:

I know he has spoken very pointedly AGAINST the late Derek Prince (no relation) and that to me is enough for me to ignore him.

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I could see why Joseph Prince would speak out against him.

Ken Rank said:

One cannot choose faith or works... because neither are complete without the other.

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Joseph Prince would agree with you. He says that the man who has no works of faith is the man who has forgotten what kind of man he is in Christ.

In this teaching he quotes James 1:22-..
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

Joseph Prince explains James 2:17 faith without works is dead.
James 1:22 be doers of the word and not hearers only.
Romans 10:3 being ignorant of God’s righteousness seek to establish their own righteousness.
James 2:17 Faith without works is dead.

Hank77 said:

Joseph Prince would agree with you. He says that the man who has no works of faith is the man who has forgotten what kind of man he is in Christ.

In this teaching he quotes James 1:22-..
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

Joseph Prince explains James 2:17 faith without works is dead.
James 1:22 be doers of the word and not hearers only.
Romans 10:3 being ignorant of God’s righteousness seek to establish their own righteousness.
James 2:17 Faith without works is dead.

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If true, then on this I would have no problem with him.

Dave-W said:

I know he has spoken very pointedly AGAINST the late Derek Prince (no relation) and that to me is enough for me to ignore him.

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Can you give me some clues to what he said that will help me search this out. I've been googling everything I can think of.
I've never heard Prince disparage any preacher at all, so this surprised me.

If this link on what Joseph Smith teaches is right, then he is guilty of rank heresy.

JOSEPH PRINCE Destined To Reign New Creation Church

EternallyKeptByJesus said:

ever listen to this man's sermons

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I think that for some years, now, I have heard Joseph some number of times. My lady friend says she greatly appreciates him, but she gets elsewhere while I stay and listen to him and observe how they relate.

My prayerful impression is pray for him and bless him in prayer, and pray for all the people who hear his messages on TV. Pray that God will use whatever He pleases to help each person.

He is clear that grace does all we need with God, I would say. And there are works which I would say he does promote, but not in order to make sure we stayed saved >

tithing

communion as a means to healing

My impression is he is capable of saying things which the Holy Spirit gives him to say. But he is not necessarily always saying exactly what God has him say, nor always what God has him thinking. I think that he is a more or less middle-aged minister and he needs to mature much more so he becomes able to minister the way he could. But there are things which I would look for in a pastor, in how he seems to be and relate.

One thing I suspect is he might give too much attention to how God will bless you as an individual because of grace. He usually says grace is God's favor; and I think there is a much more mature discovering to do about all grace really is and involves. But what he does say, I think, is pretty Biblical, but like I say not as mature as he could be saying.

He keeps giving attention to health and prosperity, but he is down-to-earth enough to say that things can be not really perfect for us in this area, but still we can be really saved people. And he does not make an obvious project of saying people with health and money problems must be very lacking as Christians, but someone's understanding can be in need.

But there is more to this, too. He seems very guarded about the possibility that God would bring consequences on people who are living wrong. And I do not hear much about Hebrews 12:4-11 which is about how by God's grace we get true correction.

It seems a number of grace naming people can be very skittish about talking about how God loves us and therefore He corrects us. They can say endlessly how God and Jesus love you, but never say a word about how because God so loves us He corrects us > Hebrews 12:4-11. But their reason for avoiding the subject of correction could be how they might suppose that correction has to mean punitive discipline, when I think Hebrews 12:4-11 is very clear otherwise.

To me, it seems that no-works grace teachers are avoiding works because they suppose that teaching works means you believe that works are a condition for you to stay saved.

@EternallyKeptByJesus > This is your thread; so I have left out some detail about a few things, so I do not go where you might consider us to be off-topic. If you want me to share in more detail about anything in particular, be specific about what, please.

God bless you
Bill

Ken Rank said:

If true, then on this I would have no problem with him.

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Here is an article that Messianic Jew, Michael Brown, wrote about Joseph Prince.
Joseph Prince Gets It Right and Wrong on the Day of Atonement

Brown points out two things that disturbs him about one of Prince's teachings where he quotes 1 John 2:1-2.
But since he never once says in the article that it's important that we turn from sin to be in right relationship with God (something taught throughout the entire New Testament), and since he wrongly defines repentance (more on that in a moment), how is someone to know that it's important that we do not continue in sin?

Well the scripture speaks for itself.
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

The word 'repentance', it does indeed mean 'to change one's mind'.
μετανοέω metanoéō, met-an-o-eh'-o; from G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):—repent.

The mind that has been changed by Christ, by grace, through faith, will no longer desire to commit sin. ie. Zacchaeus
You and I know that actions are not always perfect even after one's mind is changed, sometimes it takes time and practice. But the desire is there because one's mind has been changed by God Himself.

Hank77 said:

Here is an article that Messianic Jew, Michael Brown, wrote about Joseph Prince.
Joseph Prince Gets It Right and Wrong on the Day of Atonement

Brown points out two things that disturbs him about one of Prince's teachings where he quotes 1 John 2:1-2.
But since he never once says in the article that it's important that we turn from sin to be in right relationship with God (something taught throughout the entire New Testament), and since he wrongly defines repentance (more on that in a moment), how is someone to know that it's important that we do not continue in sin?

Well the scripture speaks for itself.
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

The word 'repentance', it does indeed mean 'to change one's mind'.
μετανοέω metanoéō, met-an-o-eh'-o; from G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):—repent.

The mind that has been changed by Christ, by grace, through faith, will no longer desire to commit sin. ie. Zacchaeus
You and I know that actions are not always perfect even after one's mind is changed, sometimes it takes time and practice. But the desire is there because one's mind has been changed by God Himself.

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Thanks.... I am not a Michael Brown fan in terms of his ministry. I have no problem with HIM or the fact that we are brothers in Christ. But we disagree on a great deal of things. No matter... this thread isn't about me nor him. Shalom.

Hank77 said:

Here is an article that Messianic Jew, Michael Brown, wrote about Joseph Prince.
Joseph Prince Gets It Right and Wrong on the Day of Atonement

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I have consistently taken Michael Brown's position over that of Joseph Prince. However, on a good note, it appears they met in early 2017 and tried to reconcile some of their differences, in large part to mutual satisfaction.
My Meeting With Pastor Joseph Prince

However, the few things Brown states they still disagree on are important points as far as I'm concerned:

1. "Our principal area of disagreement remains his teaching that the moment we are saved, our future sins are already pronounced forgiven (in contrast with the idea that our future sins are paid for but sin is not pronounced forgiven until it is committed and brought to the Lord)."

Prince's doctrine here just runs completely counter to scripture, and badly distorts it. How was it that God was executing judgments upon believers in NT times, and yet somehow their future sins had all already been forgiven? Makes no sense.

2. "Pastor Prince believes the primary role of the Holy Spirit is to remind us we are the righteousness of God in Christ (see 2 Cor. 5:21, John 16: 10) and that this understanding is critically important in helping people to turn from sin. While I also believe that this is an important role of the Spirit, I believe His primary role when we sin is to lovingly reprove and correct us, thereby pointing us back to the Father (see Rev. 3:19, 22). Obviously, these two emphases go hand in hand."

Brown is correct here, and any doctrine that seeks to minimize the Holy Spirit's role in reproving us is still heresy in my book, and dangerous to be cozying up to. The modern church is much more in need of correction than encouragement right now, so to say His primary role should be encouragement seems to be utterly out of touch with what the church truly needs at the present time.

Just my thoughts on it, but I do at least assent that there needs to be a balance, and I acknowledge that I tend to fall on the reproval side of the spectrum.

Hidden In Him said:

1. "Our principal area of disagreement remains his teaching that the moment we are saved, our future sins are already pronounced forgiven (in contrast with the idea that our future sins are paid for but sin is not pronounced forgiven until it is committed and brought to the Lord)."

Prince's doctrine here just runs completely counter to scripture, and badly distorts it. How was it that God was executing judgments upon believers in NT times, and yet somehow their future sins had all already been forgiven? Makes no sense.

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It can if you are OSAS.
Brown is not and neither am I, but there are denominations mostly Calvinist types that are.

Hidden In Him said:

2. "Pastor Prince believes the primary role of the Holy Spirit is to remind us we are the righteousness of God in Christ (see 2 Cor. 5:21, John 16: 10) and that this understanding is critically important in helping people to turn from sin. While I also believe that this is an important role of the Spirit, I believe His primary role when we sin is to lovingly reprove and correct us, thereby pointing us back to the Father (see Rev. 3:19, 22). Obviously, these two emphases go hand in hand."

Brown is correct here, and any doctrine that seeks to minimize the Holy Spirit's role in reproving us is still heresy in my book, and dangerous to be cozying up to. The modern church is much more in need of correction than encouragement right now, so to say His primary role should be encouragement seems to be utterly out of touch with what the church truly needs at the present time.

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I'm may be wrong here but from what I have read in Prince's books and from listening to him, the Holy Spirit reminding the believer of who he is in Christ is the way the Holy Spirit loving reproves and corrects us.
Remember that he comes of a culture that is very firm about honoring all your family. If you do something that dishonors them they will say something like, 'Don't you remember who you are, we don't do those kinds of things.' [my daughter-in-law is Chinese]
It used to be that way in this country. I remember my own family saying the same things. You don't do things to dishonor your family or your family's name. You don't do things to shame your family.
So if one remembers that God has declared them the rightness of God, in Christ, that they are a child of God, a child of the King, how can they go on sinning, without hanging their head in shame?

Hank77 said:

It can if you are OSAS.
Brown is not and neither am I, but there are denominations mostly Calvinist types that are.

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I'm not either.

Hank77 said:

I'm may be wrong here but from what I have read in Prince's books and from listening to him, the Holy Spirit reminding the believer of who he is in Christ is the way the Holy Spirit loving reproves and corrects us.
Remember that he comes of a culture that is very firm about honoring all your family. If you do something that dishonors them they will say something like, 'Don't you remember who you are, we don't do those kinds of things.' [my daughter-in-law is Chinese]
It used to be that way in this country. I remember my own family saying the same things. You don't do things to dishonor your family or your family's name. You don't do things to shame your family.
So if one remembers that God has declared them the rightness of God, in Christ, that they are a child of God, a child of the King, how can they go on sinning, without hanging their head in shame?

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Well this is certainly an interesting perspective, and supported from what I know of most Asian cultures as well. But now, the issue becomes not what is the mindset of his culture but what was the mindset of New Testament culture. I think it was in some ways similar in that becoming an adopted son of God meant becoming a "son of obedience," since you were supposed to conform yourself to the image of the Father. But this did not stop the apostles and New Testament writes from chastising believers right and left in NT letters, and as I stated they were in much better shape than we are today.

One thing I will say is that his message appeals especially to those who have serious issues with low self esteem, and for whom the slightest correction is difficult to receive because they have taken so much criticism in the past. For these, I do think there needs to be a much greater focus on encouragement, no matter what culture they are coming from. I believe these are the types that write his ministry thanking him for helping deliver them from sin. Sometimes encouragement is the key that makes all the difference because they have received so little of it in the past.

So again, maybe balance is needed, and one must always be led of the Holy Spirit in dealing with each individual.

Hidden In Him said:

I have consistently taken Michael Brown's position over that of Joseph Prince. However, on a good note, it appears they met in early 2017 and tried to reconcile some of their differences, in large part to mutual satisfaction.
My Meeting With Pastor Joseph Prince

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I forgot to thank you for posting this article. I like both of these men and have watched many videos of Michael Brown debating Jewish rabbis.

This article is so revealing of the spirit of grace working in Michael Brown.

I like to listen to Joseph prince's sermons.
They help me tremendously.
I believe he is a man of God.